Put your cards on the table, EU makes last Brexit call to Britain

[The Renegade]

1 minute ago, RuamRudy said:

Why, even now, can the architects still not define what it means?

They can define it - Leave means Leave. The EU and remainers cannot understand this.

 

2 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

An alternative perspective could be that there are corrupt, tax avoiding billionaires across Europe, emulating the Vote Leave playbook. Why should it only be the UK's corrupt, tax avoiding billionaires who benefit from the chaos they funded?

Your opinion carries no weight - If you want to make a claim, back it up - Simples.

 

11 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

All these people, in all these Countries are not brainwashed, falling for fake news, racists, xenophobes or right wing lunatics.

 

3 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

I appreciate that you have a stong reason for pushing this line, but the picture from where many of us are sitting is that you are so very, very wrong.

I have no strong reason for pushing this line. It is a line that is pushed by left wingers, liberals and remainers.

 

It is beyond the realms of fantasy that all these people, in all these different Countries fall under these labels.

 

For sure, I understand that it is frightening for those squinting out from the safety of their safe spaces.

[vogie]

2 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

Do you understand that my comment

"Interesting to know it's only non-Brits who think that way"

was in response to this assertion from vogie?

 

"Why do non brits think they know better than than us?"

 

Apparently vogie believes it's only non-brits who are opposed to Brexit. Maybe it was illegal immigrant Mexicans who voted for remain?

I hope you are not misquoting me, where did I say 'Apparently vogie believes it's only non-brits who are opposed to Brexit.' I did not say that!

[bristolboy]

10 minutes ago, vogie said:

I hope you are not misquoting me, where did I say 'Apparently vogie believes it's only non-brits who are opposed to Brexit.' I did not say that!

You said, "Why do non brits think they know better than than us?"

Who would "us" be if not Brits?

So are all Brits in agreement with you? Are all non-brits not in agreeement with you?

Why exactly is nationality pertinent when it comes to knowledge? 

Edited June 30, 2018 by bristolboy

[Eloquent pilgrim]

28 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Without wishing to sound dismissive, it is clear that the majority of people in any democracy are not sufficiently politically engaged to be able to make a reasonable and informed decision about complex matters such as Brexit

Oh dear, remainers are more intelligent syndrome strikes again. One can only be sufficiently politically engaged if you voted to remain. What arrogant, unsubstantiated, self promotional tosh.

[whatsupdoc]

15 minutes ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

The poster you are replying to said that Tusk was not elected by the electorate, which is true, I’m very surprised that you didn't know that.

 

The Tory party chose May into her position, in the same way the labour party chose James Callaghan in 1976, and Gordon Brown 2007; again I am surprised that you were unaware that this is common practice when a Prime Minister resigns

The poster I replied to said Tusk was not elected, which is a falsehood.

Yes, he was not elected by the general EU electorate but that is how things often work in a representative democracy. No PM (or similar position) gets directly elected by the electorate, usually parties or their representatives get elected and they chose who will lead them.

 

Brexiteers keep spreading lies about unelected EU officials (and a lot of others things as well). They deserve what they seem to wish for (the severe economic damage that Brexit will bring), but I feel sorry for those that voted remain and all others that could not vote but still have to face the consequences.

[vogie]

1 minute ago, bristolboy said:

You said, "Why do non brits think they know better than than us?"

Who would "us" be if not Brits?

So are all Brits in agreement with you? Are all non-brits not in agreeement with you?

Why exactly is nationality pertinent when it comes to knowledge? 

 

6 minutes ago, vogie said:

Apparently vogie believes it's only non-brits who are opposed to Brexit

Show me where I said this, "apparently" doesn't cut the mustard with me

[RuamRudy]

4 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

They can define it - Leave means Leave. The EU and remainers cannot understand this.

 

That's the best you can do? Even the Tories cannot even agree what that means. Why not try to answer my question:

 

12 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Care to offer an alternative perspective? Are you suggesting that the majority of Europeans understand the intricacies of their domestic and international political engagements?

 

6 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

Your opinion carries no weight - If you want to make a claim, back it up - Simples.

Of course, I am not an investigative journalist - but there are investigative journalists working on this very subject right now, uncovering some very dirty goings on, with Farage and Banks at the very heart of it. Whilst I don't hold my breath, I hope very much that criminal proceedings commence soon,

 

8 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

For sure, I understand that it is frightening for those squinting out from the safety of their safe spaces.

What is truly frightening is that you believe that the public understands the implications of their actions. No wonder we are being screwed by those in power if the willful myopia is so prevalent.

 

[worgeordie]

Whatever the British government says,the EU is going to veto

it,they are shit scared,Britain is going to do very well outside

of the EU,as that will cause others to leave.

regards worgeordie

[The Renegade]

11 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

That's the best you can do? Even the Tories cannot even agree what that means. Why not try to answer my question:

I did. Leave means Leave. That you cannot understand this is not my problem.

 

11 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Of course, I am not an investigative journalist - but there are investigative journalists working on this very subject right now, uncovering some very dirty goings on, with Farage and Banks at the very heart of it. Whilst I don't hold my breath, I hope very much that criminal proceedings commence soon,

Instead of howling at speculation, come back when and if, anyone is taken to trial and found guilty.

 

11 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

What is truly frightening is that you believe that the public understands the implications of their actions.

How many times do I have to tell you ? Do not try and put words in my mouth.

 

This is what I said

 

35 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

And 1 in 4 EU Countries, and rising in the hands of '' Populist Governments '' suggests that the majority of voters are now very aware of what has been going on for the last 30 years and are now saying no more.

Take note of the word '' Suggests '' and what it means.

 

Of course being a remainer, you also get confused by the meaning of '' might '' and '' could '' which has lost all meaning for remainers and has now come to represent '' Fact ''

 

Your safe space awaits.

Edited June 30, 2018 by The Renegade

[dick dasterdly]

59 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Of course it must be saved at all costs. It represent cohesion and stability. Without wishing to sound dismissive, it is clear that the majority of people in any democracy are not sufficiently politically engaged to be able to make a reasonable and informed decision about complex matters such as Brexit. That is why we have corrupt, shadowy organisations willing to pump masses of dirty money into the generation of fake news via fake organisations to sway the gullible public with populist sentiment. Which is why we have Trump in the White House and Brexit on our table - the public has been seduced into believing that such unthinkables might actually present the the answers to our problems.

"Of course it must be saved at all costs. It represent cohesion and stability."

 

Not really.  At the moment the eu is far more concerned about the rise of nationalist parties in various eu countries than brexit.  Why are these nationalist parties on the rise?  Because of eu policies.

 

"Without wishing to sound dismissive, it is clear that the majority of people in any democracy are not sufficiently politically engaged to be able to make a reasonable and informed decision about complex matters such as Brexit."

 

Eloquent Pilgrim responded to this elitist comment perfectly.  I'd only add the point that politicians are no wiser than the electorate on political issues.  Hence the Iraq war, based on WMDs that was swallowed hook, line and sinker by politicians......

 

"That is why we have corrupt, shadowy organisations willing to pump masses of dirty money into the generation of fake news via fake organisations to sway the gullible public with populist sentiment."

 

More elitist nonsense.

 

Personally, I believe it is the remainers that are gullible enough to believe this type of nonsense - which is why they believed the immediate armageddon catastrophe forecast by most of the media, politicians and 'experts' - not to mention 'the russians' (somehow....) influenced those that voted leave!

Edited June 30, 2018 by dick dasterdly

[The Renegade]

For those barking at the moon and still screaming about no-one knows what Brexit is

 

Quote

3. The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period.

http://www.lisbon-treaty.org/wcm/the-lisbon-treaty/treaty-on-European-union-and-comments/title-6-final-provisions/137-article-50.html

 

Paragraph 3 of Article 50 of the Lisbon treaty spells it out in 3 easy steps.

 

The treaties cease to apply

 

• On triggering A50
• After a 2 year time span
• Or extended by mutual agreement.

Of course,  the real problem for the EU and remainers is

 

Quote

Varadkar added: “If that principle were to be conceded there would be Eurosceptics and right-wing populist parties in every second country of Europe who would say cannot we have the same deal. While we really regret that the UK has decided to leave the European Union, we are not going to let them destroy the European Union.”

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jun/29/eu-uk-divide-poses-serious-threat-to-brexit-talks-says-barnier

 

Apparently the UK leaving the EU will destroy the EU.

[dick dasterdly]

46 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

Is that correct ?

 

And 1 in 4 EU Countries, and rising in the hands of '' Populist Governments '' suggests that the majority of voters are now very aware of what has been going on for the last 30 years and are now saying no more.

 

Without being dismissive ? ?It would seem that it is you, and people like you, that are insufficiently engaged with your brain matter to make assumptions about anyone.

 

All these people, in all these Countries are not brainwashed, falling for fake news, racists, xenophobes or right wing lunatics.

"And 1 in 4 EU Countries, and rising in the hands of '' Populist Governments '' suggests that the majority of voters are now very aware of what has been going on for the last 30 years and are now saying no more."

"All these people, in all these Countries are not brainwashed, falling for fake news, racists, xenophobes or right wing lunatics."

 

Agree 100%

 

[bristolboy]

1 hour ago, vogie said:

 

Show me where I said this, "apparently" doesn't cut the mustard with me

Logically speaking, there doesn't seem to be other options unless you were being irrational. Oh wait...

[Chomper Higgot]

42 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

"And 1 in 4 EU Countries, and rising in the hands of '' Populist Governments '' suggests that the majority of voters are now very aware of what has been going on for the last 30 years and are now saying no more."

"All these people, in all these Countries are not brainwashed, falling for fake news, racists, xenophobes or right wing lunatics."

 

Agree 100%

 

Nationalism is not the only response to the problems the EU faces, but it is the only ‘solution’ being offered by the rightwing, curiously where nationalism is rising it is being funded and promoted by billionaires and multimillionaires and as in past history supported by the working class.

 

Nationalism, different continent, same dumb arguments.

 

 

[vogie]

4 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

Logically speaking, there doesn't seem to be other options unless you were being irrational. Oh wait...

I have read your posts, you don't really do logical do you. I did not say 'Apparently vogie believes it's only non-brits who are opposed to Brexit' so why put words in my mouth, you do know it's againgst forum rules or is "apparently" your get out of jail card.

[smedly]

4 hours ago, The Renegade said:

Only 3 cards needed.

 

The Goodbye card - Goodbye

 

The WTO card - Starts on 29 March 2019

 

The Irish Border card - the UK will not be putting in any border.

 

Trumps anything that the EU think they have.

 

Now grow a pair May and get on with it.

absolutely 100% correct

 

and leave them a message - the door is open when you want to actually discuss a trade deal in earnest although you might be going to the back of the que as we have other Nations to talk too that actually want to trade without all the B'S

 

Oh and the 40 billion is in the post ? 

[dick dasterdly]

Just now, Chomper Higgot said:

Nationalism is not the only response to the problems the EU faces, but it is the only ‘solution’ being offered by the rightwing, curiously where nationalism is rising it is being funded and promoted by billionaires and multimillionaires and as in past history supported by the working class.

 

Nationalism, different continent, same dumb arguments.

 

 

You're mistaking me for a 'nationalist'.

 

Unfortunately, those who have had enough of various eu policies only have the option of voting for nationalist parties?

 

Left-wing parties (who are supposed to represent the poor/workers) are supporting the eu, even though their electorate is showing their displeasure....

 

But back on topic, I agree with the Renegade when it comes to the sham 'negotiations'.  The uk govt. agreeing to the eu's agenda has only worsened the situation as politicians on both sides were encouraged to believe that, given enough time, they could turn brexit into 'leave in name only'.

 

Time to declare that the uk is leaving without any agreement at the end of the article 50 period.  Admittedly, it gives businesses and the uk govt. little time to prepare - but that is the uk govts' fault for not taking this measure as soon as it was obvious that the eu had no intention of negotiating.

 

Eu businesses (in each eu country - the eu consists of various countries that trade with the uk) will then force them to start negotiating a trade deal.

[RuamRudy]

1 hour ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

Oh dear, remainers are more intelligent syndrome strikes again. One can only be sufficiently politically engaged if you voted to remain. What arrogant, unsubstantiated, self promotional tosh.

Please do not put words in my mouth. If that is how you wish to either incorrectly interpret what I wrote, or spin it to make your own slanted conclusion, that is your choice, but do not post comments that imply that I said anything of the sort. Arrogant, unsubstantiated tosh - that is exactly what you wrote in the above.

[bristolboy]

28 minutes ago, vogie said:

I have read your posts, you don't really do logical do you. I did not say 'Apparently vogie believes it's only non-brits who are opposed to Brexit' so why put words in my mouth, you do know it's againgst forum rules or is "apparently" your get out of jail card.

It's not against rules to construe and I didn't put words into your mouth except if you believe the ones you just quoted are actually mine. I believe I've made the logical case why that's what they mean.

At any rate, what's really amusing about citing ones nationality as relevant is the case of the Euro. American economists were pretty much united in believing that it was a very bad idea. And they laid out a detailed and specific case against it. But the European economists' answer pretty much was that you Americans just can't understand.

[smedly]

The fact is there is nothing in Art50 that says anything about a trade deal, Art50 was to tie up loose ends like Air travel, borders etc, it has nothing to do with a trade deal, the UK should never have started these trade talks until we had left - they are doing it all backwards, the EU cannot force the UK to do anything unless they want to start a war, we are leaving and that is that.

 

Now if the EU thinks that a trade deal of some sort might be a good idea for all concerned then lets talk about it after we have 100% left.

 

We want our country back

 

Everything was fine when it all started as the EEC were it was simply trade, it has now morphed into a power grabbing unelected debacle that we no longer want to be part of, The United States of Germany 

[smedly]

16 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

You're mistaking me for a 'nationalist'.

 

Unfortunately, those who have had enough of various eu policies only have the option of voting for nationalist parties?

 

Left-wing parties (who are supposed to represent the poor/workers) are supporting the eu, even though their electorate is showing their displeasure....

 

But back on topic, I agree with the Renegade when it comes to the sham 'negotiations'.  The uk govt. agreeing to the eu's agenda has only worsened the situation as politicians on both sides were encouraged to believe that, given enough time, they could turn brexit into 'leave in name only'.

 

Time to declare that the uk is leaving without any agreement at the end of the article 50 period.  Admittedly, it gives businesses and the uk govt. little time to prepare - but that is the uk govts' fault for not taking this measure as soon as it was obvious that the eu had no intention of negotiating.

 

Eu businesses (in each eu country - the eu consists of various countries that trade with the uk) will then force them to start negotiating a trade deal.

My thoughts exactly...…………..great post

[RuamRudy]

1 hour ago, dick dasterdly said:

"Of course it must be saved at all costs. It represent cohesion and stability."

 

Not really.  At the moment the eu is far more concerned about the rise of nationalist parties in various eu countries than brexit.  Why are these nationalist parties on the rise?  Because of eu policies.

 

"Without wishing to sound dismissive, it is clear that the majority of people in any democracy are not sufficiently politically engaged to be able to make a reasonable and informed decision about complex matters such as Brexit."

 

Eloquent Pilgrim responded to this elitist comment perfectly.  I'd only add the point that politicians are no wiser than the electorate on political issues.  Hence the Iraq war, based on WMDs that was swallowed hook, line and sinker by politicians......

 

Nowhere did I say that Brexiteers failed to understand the situation - I said that, and very clearly, that Brexiteers and remainers alike did not understand the complexities of Brexit. God knows, you may prove to have been right all along and Brexit might indeed be the best thing that could have happened to the UK, but that should not be taken as vindication of the Brexiteers' superior analytical prowess. For fear of someone else chipping with more of this Brexit means Brexit baloney, nobody knew 2 years ago what Brexit involved and we still don't know now.

 

1 hour ago, dick dasterdly said:

"That is why we have corrupt, shadowy organisations willing to pump masses of dirty money into the generation of fake news via fake organisations to sway the gullible public with populist sentiment."

 

More elitist nonsense.

 

Personally, I believe it is the remainers that are gullible enough to believe this type of nonsense - which is why they believed the immediate armageddon catastrophe forecast by most of the media, politicians and 'experts' - not to mention 'the russians' (somehow....) influenced those that voted leave!

 

What is elitist nonsense? I don't mean in reference to what I wrote, but in general - how do you define 'elitist nonsense'? Do you think that the likes of Rothermere, Rees Mogg, Dacre, Banks and the other non-dom millionaires and billionaires who are bankrolling Brexit represent the common man? Do you think that they are on your side? I can repost the article that demonstrates that Farage knowingly falsely declared No as winners on referendum night if you like. Since then, a photo has emerged showing him gloating over the subsequent fall in the pound. I can dig that up for you too if you like.

[vogie]

1 minute ago, bristolboy said:

It's not against rules to construe and I didn't put words into your mouth except if you believe the ones you just quoted are actually mine. I believe I've made the logical case why that's what they mean.

At any rate, what's really amusing about citing ones nationality as relevant is the case of the Euro. American economists were pretty much united in believing that it was a very bad idea. And they laid out a detailed and specific case against it. But the European economists' answer pretty much was that you Americans just can't understand.

It's not often you are wrong, but you're wrong again, not only that you are becoming tedious. Goodbye!

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, The Renegade said:

Is that correct ?

 

And 1 in 4 EU Countries, and rising in the hands of '' Populist Governments '' suggests that the majority of voters are now very aware of what has been going on for the last 30 years and are now saying no more.

 

Without being dismissive ? ?It would seem that it is you, and people like you, that are insufficiently engaged with your brain matter to make assumptions about anyone.

 

All these people, in all these Countries are not brainwashed, falling for fake news, racists, xenophobes or right wing lunatics.

It seems to me that the lowest common denominator of populists is immigration NOT the EU per se. I see the EU modifying immigration policies and border control.

[petermik]

7 hours ago, smedly said:

 

 

We want our country back

 

Everything was fine when it all started as the EEC were it was simply trade, it has now morphed into a power grabbing unelected debacle that we no longer want to be part of, The United States of Germany 

At the last count there was over 10,500 unelected bureaucrats on salaries greater than our PM....we the British people voted out......the EU can go to hell,we want our country run by people we elect and carrying out our wishes...

 

[Eloquent pilgrim]

2 hours ago, whatsupdoc said:

The poster I replied to said Tusk was not elected, which is a falsehood.

Yes, he was not elected by the general EU electorate but that is how things often work in a representative democracy. No PM (or similar position) gets directly elected by the electorate, usually parties or their representatives get elected and they chose who will lead them.

 

Brexiteers keep spreading lies about unelected EU officials (and a lot of others things as well). They deserve what they seem to wish for (the severe economic damage that Brexit will bring), but I feel sorry for those that voted remain and all others that could not vote but still have to face the consequences.

Nope, he said that Tusk was not elected by the electorate, which is 100% true, so not a falsehood. This is what he said

 

*** We might have stayed if muppets like Tusk had been elected into their positions and were accountable. The electorate had no say in his appointment ***

 

No response I notice to you not understanding how Prime Ministers often change during a governments elected term.

[RuamRudy]

3 minutes ago, petermik said:

At the last count there was over 10,500 unelected bureaucrats on salaries greater than our PM....we the British people voted out......the EU can go to hell,we want our country run by people we elect and carrying out our wishes...

 

That is how representative bodies work. We have a similar situation in Whitehall, with countless mandarins working behind the scenes, delivering the policies that our MPs vote upon. We don't elect our civil servants at home. As for their salary relative to the PM's, that this is a UK problem - we should pay our PM more.

[Grouse]

The entire Brexit process has become a farce. The biggest decision this country has taken for 80 years and we have made ourselves a laughing stock. If ever there was a time for a vote of no confidence in our "government" it is now. White paper my arse!

[Eloquent pilgrim]

47 minutes ago, Grouse said:

It seems to me that the lowest common denominator of populists is immigration NOT the EU per se. I see the EU modifying immigration policies and border control.

Correct, immigration is unquestionably the common denominator, recognised by the ordinary people of Europe for some time, but inexplicably ignored by the EU, whose policies, driven by Merkel, are directly responsible.

 

Yes, in blind panic, they are now attempting to modify immigration policies and border control, but even this has only happened because she has been directly confronted and threatened by her own Interior Minister, Horst Seehofer.

 

I think it will be too little, far too late, and all she need worry about now is how history will remember that she oversaw the ruination of Europe by importing a vast alien culture whose values are antithetical to the west. A childless woman who thought she could be be mother to all humanity

[nauseus]

3 hours ago, bristolboy said:

Do you understand that my comment

"Interesting to know it's only non-Brits who think that way"

was in response to this assertion from vogie?

 

"Why do non brits think they know better than than us?"

 

Apparently vogie believes it's only non-brits who are opposed to Brexit. Maybe it was illegal immigrant Mexicans who voted for remain?

Nobody knows how ALL of any group feel. So untrue.  

 

 

 

Edited June 30, 2018 by nauseus