Put your cards on the table, EU makes last Brexit call to Britain

[Different]

Excuse me is this article saying that Brits should go for another EU referendum or is just me!

[stephenterry]

17 hours ago, billd766 said:

 

Thank you for your comments.

 

It may surprise you to learn that BOTH sides lied in the Brexit campaign and it may further surprise you to learn that I, and many older people were not taken in by the claims of either side. We used our age and experience to sift through the the information available at the time on the internet, something that was simply not available back in 1974/75. Then there were very few computers for the general public and no internet so we relied on newspapers radio and TV and of course on real life.

 

I realise that joining the EEC was a good idea but when it morphed into the EU is when it got beyond a joke. I am more fortunate than you as I have had 2 referendums to cast my vote and and I knew back in 1975 I was right in my vote to join the EEC.

 

However over the ensuing 40 years I came to the conclusion that whilst the EEC was a good idea the EU was not. One of the few things that I am grateful to the Tory party and David Cameron for was the opportunity to change my vote to that of leave.

 

There are far too many reasons for me to list here and none of them are/were political and I totally agree with you that Theresa May and the current crop of ministers and MPs are about as much use as a chocolate teapot I am afraid that unless there is a rebellion on the Tory party and a new pro Brexit government is installed, this buggers muddle that she calls Brexit can only get worse.

 

What worries me more is that if she calls a general election and Labour get in, what you see now will be perfection compared to what will come. 

 

I have lived under Labour governments going back to Harold Wilson from 1964 to 1970, Wilson again 1974 to 1976, James Callaghan 1976 to 79, Tony Blair from 1997 to 2007, Gordon Brown from 2007 to 2010. Many of their ministers were really smart people but their policies were not always that good.

 

The old, new, new new and the current lot under Jeremy Corbyn quite frankly scare the sh1t out of me and they are the worst alternative that I can see for the UK and the future, Brexit or no Brexit.

 

quote from your post.

 

"IMO, experience, to a degree, comes with age as one learns not to repeat the same mistakes that is called life. If you or I live long enough we will both realise that Brexit was a huge mistake for which the younger generation will need to finance."

 

Try to remember that all of us oldies were young once and we have gone through what you are going through now. I have learned and paid for my mistake for over 40 years which is why I want to be away completely from the EU so that my son and grandchildren will not have to pay themselves.

Thank you for your response. Very interesting. I'm going to quote only three paras from the latest Time magazine to widen the discussion.

 

At heart of the current political saga is the fact that the politicians leading the Brexit “Leave” campaign never actually explained to the British public what a vote for “Leave” entailed. The promise of Brexit was all things to all people, which is how it managed to eke out a 52- to 48-percent victory over the “Remain” side.

 

Johnson and Davis pushed for a “Hard Brexit,” a clean break from the E.U. and its expansive market, allowing the U.K. to regain full control of its trade and immigration policies. May determined that pursuing that version of Brexit would be too costly to the British economy (a no-deal Brexit is expected to knock up to 8% of growth off of the U.K. economy, according to the British government’s own analysis) and too politically divisive to a society in which nearly half the population didn’t want to leave the E.U. at all. 

Exactly.

 

The EU side:

May’s Chequers draft raises serious questions for Europeans. Separating goods from services might seem like a good overture to Brussels from a British vantage point, but it calls into question the fundamental “four freedoms” that underpin the E.U.’s single market: the freedom of goods, services, capital and people to travel across European borders unencumbered. To think that the E.U. would cave in on such an integral part of European identity to avoid the £100 billion knock a disorderly Brexit would have on the rest of the E.U., borders on the delusional.

 

What this boils down to, Billd, is not what you and others of your ilk voted for, it's the current path that May is taking and it's a huge Betfred gamble without any agreed transitional period that should not, IMO, have a fixed end date, because no one can foresee the future. and that includes your younger family members. Aiming to indoctrinate them with your fixed beliefs (your last sentence implies this, albeit apologies if that's incorrect) is as bad as Southgate's selection of Kane and Sterling to start the Belgium match. 

 

BTW - does 766 after your name have any significance?

Edited July 15, 2018 by stephenterry
correction

[nauseus]

18 hours ago, 3 minus 2 said:

Yeah rather than hit the bottle.. a little bit of research into understanding how the ec works might be of benefit..rather than spouting ill informed ignorant nonsence no doubts fed by the daily express and daily mail   ITS  DEMOCRATIC AND EVERY COUNTRY has a say according ie vote more or less to reflect  its   pop' there is NO MORE BULLYING than in any other elected body .. ro think so is just plainly wrong and the unelected body your no doubt referring to as corrupt are civil servants..  just like ours .. they carry out what the elected yes ELECTED body pass

Voting in favour of leaving i, att, i sort of could understand .. Abso amazin leave campaign .. however still thinking its a good idea .. is  truly mammothly STUPID

 

 

 

 

 

Sounds like you beat me to the bar! By hours. 

[billd766]

21 hours ago, sandyf said:

Nothing could be further from the truth. I was stationed in Germany before the common market and had to drive around Europe with a selection of different currencies in the glovebox. The people of central Europe had been campaigning for a common currency for over 30 years before the Euro appeared. You wouldn't be suggesting that the will of the people be ignored per chance.

 

The question of peripheral countries having to use the Euro is a different issue altogether.

 

I was at RAF Wildenrath near Monchengladbach  in Germany which was close to Roermond in Holland. We used DM quite often in Holland and Dutch guilders in Germany. When I went back to the UK I would go via the Dutch and Belgian motorways and there were always currency exchange shops at the motorway services. The ferries took GBP, DM, Guilders, Belgian francs and cheques. The only country I had a problem with was France. Luxembourg was OK and I even found a pub selling Watneys draught Red Barrel.

 

I never even had a passport but used my NATO travel permit and had no problems in the 2 1/2 years I was there.

[kwilco]

6 hours ago, Spidey said:

My choice would be Lord Sugar, Roy Keane and Peter Kaye.

We don't need negotiators as we don't need to leave.

 

 

It's like negotiating your own price down after the customers already agreed a fair price.

Edited July 15, 2018 by kwilco

[billd766]

15 hours ago, 3 minus 2 said:

As an  'oldie' i'm wondering <deleted> your on about.. the last forty years have been without a doubt THE best economicaly for ALL in the uk education, infastructure all are unrecognisable from pre ec days

.lest you forget .. i cant, the uk was a barren shit hole still not recovered in ANY form from the second world war shops often ran out of goods, jobs became dificult to find .. many doin what the eastern europeans are doin now..but over to germany. 

 

Im NO FAN of large corps  and gut reaction is to tell the to <deleted> off .. however away from gut reaction there ARE NO POSITIVES  from leaving the ec.. its  like a club votin to leav the prem to play in the championship..just plain stupid.

..

 

 

That is your own opinion and your are welcome to it.

 

However it certainly isn't my opinion and I am entitled to mine.

 

 

[dick dasterdly]

1 hour ago, stephenterry said:

Thank you for your response. Very interesting. I'm going to quote only three paras from the latest Time magazine to widen the discussion.

 

At heart of the current political saga is the fact that the politicians leading the Brexit “Leave” campaign never actually explained to the British public what a vote for “Leave” entailed. The promise of Brexit was all things to all people, which is how it managed to eke out a 52- to 48-percent victory over the “Remain” side.

 

Johnson and Davis pushed for a “Hard Brexit,” a clean break from the E.U. and its expansive market, allowing the U.K. to regain full control of its trade and immigration policies. May determined that pursuing that version of Brexit would be too costly to the British economy (a no-deal Brexit is expected to knock up to 8% of growth off of the U.K. economy, according to the British government’s own analysis) and too politically divisive to a society in which nearly half the population didn’t want to leave the E.U. at all. 

Exactly.

 

The EU side:

May’s Chequers draft raises serious questions for Europeans. Separating goods from services might seem like a good overture to Brussels from a British vantage point, but it calls into question the fundamental “four freedoms” that underpin the E.U.’s single market: the freedom of goods, services, capital and people to travel across European borders unencumbered. To think that the E.U. would cave in on such an integral part of European identity to avoid the £100 billion knock a disorderly Brexit would have on the rest of the E.U., borders on the delusional.

 

What this boils down to, Billd, is not what you and others of your ilk voted for, it's the current path that May is taking and it's a huge Betfred gamble without any agreed transitional period that should not, IMO, have a fixed end date, because no one can foresee the future. and that includes your younger family members. Aiming to indoctrinate them with your fixed beliefs (your last sentence implies this, albeit apologies if that's incorrect) is as bad as Southgate's selection of Kane and Sterling to start the Belgium match. 

 

BTW - does 766 after your name have any significance?

"At heart of the current political saga is the fact that the politicians leading the Brexit “Leave” campaign never actually explained to the British public what a vote for “Leave” entailed. The promise of Brexit was all things to all people, which is how it managed to eke out a 52- to 48-percent victory over the “Remain” side."

 

This is nothing other than biased opinion.

 

There were two options 1) remain 2) leave - and the brit. govt. pamphlet sent to every home explained what the vote entailed, and went so far as to recommend voting remain.    The second sentence is even more misleading as the "promise of brexit" clearly wasn't "all things to all people" - as 48% voted to remain.

 

 

"Johnson and Davis pushed for a “Hard Brexit,” a clean break from the E.U. and its expansive market, allowing the U.K. to regain full control of its trade and immigration policies. May determined that pursuing that version of Brexit would be too costly to the British economy (a no-deal Brexit is expected to knock up to 8% of growth off of the U.K. economy, according to the British government’s own analysis) and too politically divisive to a society in which nearly half the population didn’t want to leave the E.U. at all. 

Exactly."

 

Even more obviously biased!

 

The EU side:

May’s Chequers draft raises serious questions for Europeans. Separating goods from services might seem like a good overture to Brussels from a British vantage point, but it calls into question the fundamental “four freedoms” that underpin the E.U.’s single market: the freedom of goods, services, capital and people to travel across European borders unencumbered. To think that the E.U. would cave in on such an integral part of European identity to avoid the £100 billion knock a disorderly Brexit would have on the rest of the E.U., borders on the delusional.

 

As far as I can make out, nobody has explained "May's Chequers draft", and until we have clarity it's pointless using it as an 'argument'.  Not suprising though that Time magazine is stating conjecture as fact in their support of the remain cause.

Edited July 15, 2018 by dick dasterdly

[billd766]

1 hour ago, stephenterry said:

Thank you for your response. Very interesting. I'm going to quote only three paras from the latest Time magazine to widen the discussion.

 

At heart of the current political saga is the fact that the politicians leading the Brexit “Leave” campaign never actually explained to the British public what a vote for “Leave” entailed. The promise of Brexit was all things to all people, which is how it managed to eke out a 52- to 48-percent victory over the “Remain” side.

 

Johnson and Davis pushed for a “Hard Brexit,” a clean break from the E.U. and its expansive market, allowing the U.K. to regain full control of its trade and immigration policies. May determined that pursuing that version of Brexit would be too costly to the British economy (a no-deal Brexit is expected to knock up to 8% of growth off of the U.K. economy, according to the British government’s own analysis) and too politically divisive to a society in which nearly half the population didn’t want to leave the E.U. at all. 

Exactly.

 

The EU side:

May’s Chequers draft raises serious questions for Europeans. Separating goods from services might seem like a good overture to Brussels from a British vantage point, but it calls into question the fundamental “four freedoms” that underpin the E.U.’s single market: the freedom of goods, services, capital and people to travel across European borders unencumbered. To think that the E.U. would cave in on such an integral part of European identity to avoid the £100 billion knock a disorderly Brexit would have on the rest of the E.U., borders on the delusional.

 

What this boils down to, Billd, is not what you and others of your ilk voted for, it's the current path that May is taking and it's a huge Betfred gamble without any agreed transitional period that should not, IMO, have a fixed end date, because no one can foresee the future. and that includes your younger family members. Aiming to indoctrinate them with your fixed beliefs (your last sentence implies this, albeit apologies if that's incorrect) is as bad as Southgate's selection of Kane and Sterling to start the Belgium match. 

 

BTW - does 766 after your name have any significance?

 

The last 3 numbers of my service number. I also have a letter and 4 numbers before it but it makes my TVF moniker too long and clumsy. 

 

Ask any ex-service man his number, rank and name and they will reel it off straight away.

[Grouse]

What's happened?

 

Good discussions from both sides this morning with no rancour! 

[melvinmelvin]

with dodgy davis and BJ Johnson out of the way I reckon UK would fare best with a soft brexit . . .

 

[nauseus]

7 hours ago, bristolboy said:

It's especially endearing to see Brexiteers claim that their cause is for an independent Britain and then grovel to Donald Trump, who is trying to break apart the western alliance and a pathological liar, in order to secure a more favorable trade treat with the USA. As though there were any serious current obstacles to trade with the USA. Rue Britannia!

Where are all these Brexiteers grovelling to Trump? You do post some rubbish.

[dick dasterdly]

23 minutes ago, Grouse said:

What's happened?

 

Good discussions from both sides this morning with no rancour! 

This tends to be the case when neither side resorts to insulting those with a different opinion....

[vogie]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jul/14/mandelson-brexiters-may-eu-humiliation-opinium-poll

 

Peter Mandelson joins Brexiters in attack on May’s EU ‘humiliation

Peter Mandelson says it would be better just to drop out of the EU than to follow Mays blueprint.

[3 minus 2]

2 hours ago, billd766 said:

 

That is your own opinion and your are welcome to it.

 

However it certainly isn't my opinion and I am entitled to mine.

 

 

Barring the last concluding paragraph it AINT opinion its happening .. this leave vote is gonna hurt  a lot of people for a LONG LONG time  and THERES BEEN  NOTHIN to say ANYWHERE it will improve life in the uk 

 

[nontabury]

8 hours ago, Spidey said:

My choice would be Lord Sugar, Roy Keane and Peter Kaye.

 

A typical reply from a remainer. What you should have mentioned is that there has been two completely different teams, working out the strategy for the U.K to exit the hated E.U.  One team headed by elected David Davis, who has tried to carry out the wishes of the British people. The second team, lead by remoaners, such as the unelected civil servant Oliver Robbins,have tried, and it would seem, successfully to ignore the wishes of the British people. 

 

 

[whatsupdoc]

Hilarious!! Trump told May to sue the EU..... How and for what???

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-44838028

[bristolboy]

4 hours ago, nauseus said:

Where are all these Brexiteers grovelling to Trump? You do post some rubbish.

Here's' one. Ever heard of him?

 

But Mr Trump also found support for his remarks from leading Tory Brexiteer Jacob Rees-Mogg.

The prominent backbencher, who chairs the European Research Group (ERG) of Conservative eurosceptics, defended Mr Trump's "perfectly reasonable" intervention as "a matter of US foreign policy".

He told the BBC: "The UK wants to do a trade deal with Donald Trump, and he said if you want to do a trade deal with the United States this isn't the way to do it."

https://news.sky.com/story/donald-trumps-attack-deepens-conservative-splits-between-brexiteers-and-remainers-11435721

 

Ever heard of this person?

 

Farage, a member of European Parliament and former leader of the U.K. Independence Party, said Trump decided to "intervene" for two reasons: he believes in Brexit and he feels the U.S. has been let down.

"He believes in a world of democratic nation-states cooperating with each other, not globalist structures like the European Union," Farage said.

http://insider.foxnews.com/2018/07/13/nigel-farage-says-trump-dropped-bombshell-theresa-may-uk-establishment

 

And there's this obscure character:

 

“I am increasingly admiring of Donald Trump. I have become more and more convinced that there is method in his madness,” Johnson was recorded saying at a closed-door gathering at the Institute of Directors in June 2018.

This from a man who had previously said Trump was “clearly out of his mind” for wanting to ban Muslims from entering the U.S. And in 2015, when he was mayor of London, said "I would invite him to come and see the whole of London … except that I wouldn't want to expose Londoners to any risk of meeting Donald Trump."

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/12/what-the-uks-top-politicians-have-said-about-trump--and-its-not-al.html

Edited July 15, 2018 by bristolboy

[billd766]

4 hours ago, 3 minus 2 said:

Barring the last concluding paragraph it AINT opinion its happening .. this leave vote is gonna hurt  a lot of people for a LONG LONG time  and THERES BEEN  NOTHIN to say ANYWHERE it will improve life in the uk 

 

 

So YOU say.

[Chomper Higgot]

36 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

Here's' one. Ever heard of him?

 

But Mr Trump also found support for his remarks from leading Tory Brexiteer Jacob Rees-Mogg.

The prominent backbencher, who chairs the European Research Group (ERG) of Conservative eurosceptics, defended Mr Trump's "perfectly reasonable" intervention as "a matter of US foreign policy".

He told the BBC: "The UK wants to do a trade deal with Donald Trump, and he said if you want to do a trade deal with the United States this isn't the way to do it."

https://news.sky.com/story/donald-trumps-attack-deepens-conservative-splits-between-brexiteers-and-remainers-11435721

 

Ever heard of this person?

 

Farage, a member of European Parliament and former leader of the U.K. Independence Party, said Trump decided to "intervene" for two reasons: he believes in Brexit and he feels the U.S. has been let down.

"He believes in a world of democratic nation-states cooperating with each other, not globalist structures like the European Union," Farage said.

http://insider.foxnews.com/2018/07/13/nigel-farage-says-trump-dropped-bombshell-theresa-may-uk-establishment

 

And there's this obscure character:

 

“I am increasingly admiring of Donald Trump. I have become more and more convinced that there is method in his madness,” Johnson was recorded saying at a closed-door gathering at the Institute of Directors in June 2018.

This from a man who had previously said Trump was “clearly out of his mind” for wanting to ban Muslims from entering the U.S. And in 2015, when he was mayor of London, said  "I would invite him to come and see the whole of London … except that I wouldn't want to expose Londoners to any risk of meeting Donald Trump."

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/12/what-the-uks-top-politicians-have-said-about-trump--and-its-not-al.html

The same Rees-Mogg who traveled to the US for meetings with Steve Bannon!

[bristolboy]

7 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

The same Rees-Mogg who traveled to the US for meetings with Steve Bannon!

For what it's worth, the meeting was in London.,

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/dec/01/jacob-rees-mogg-held-meeting-with-steve-bannon-in-london

Unless there was another one.

[nontabury]

3 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

The same Rees-Mogg who traveled to the US for meetings with Steve Bannon!

So what. I never read any remarks from you,regarding the back stabbing M.P.’s who reported to the Bureaucrats in Brussels, in order to receive instructions on how to block the democratic decision of the British electorate.

 

 

 

[Orac]

For what it's worth, the meeting was in London.,
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/dec/01/jacob-rees-mogg-held-meeting-with-steve-bannon-in-london
Unless there was another one.

Bannon has been on LBC today singing the praises of JRM calling him “one of the best thinkers in the Conservative movement on a global basis”. He then went on to defend Tommy Robinson who he described in an off air conversation with the LBC political editor as “the backbone of this country”.

Nasty piece of work.

https://amp.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/nigel-farage/steve-bannon-clash-theo-userwood-tommy-robinson/?__twitter_impression=true





Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[nontabury]

5 minutes ago, Orac said:

 

Bannon has been on LBC today singing the praises of JRM calling him “one of the best thinkers in the Conservative movement on a global basis”. He then went on to defend Tommy Robinson who he described in an off air conversation with the LBC political editor as “the backbone of this country”.

Nasty piece of work.

https://amp.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/nigel-farage/steve-bannon-clash-theo-userwood-tommy-robinson/?__twitter_impression=true





Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

 

 

Well lets listen to Jacob  Rees Mogg clash with a Very nasty piece of work. One of our colonial Masters.

 

 

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, bristolboy said:

Here's' one. Ever heard of him?

 

But Mr Trump also found support for his remarks from leading Tory Brexiteer Jacob Rees-Mogg.

The prominent backbencher, who chairs the European Research Group (ERG) of Conservative eurosceptics, defended Mr Trump's "perfectly reasonable" intervention as "a matter of US foreign policy".

He told the BBC: "The UK wants to do a trade deal with Donald Trump, and he said if you want to do a trade deal with the United States this isn't the way to do it."

https://news.sky.com/story/donald-trumps-attack-deepens-conservative-splits-between-brexiteers-and-remainers-11435721

 

Ever heard of this person?

 

Farage, a member of European Parliament and former leader of the U.K. Independence Party, said Trump decided to "intervene" for two reasons: he believes in Brexit and he feels the U.S. has been let down.

"He believes in a world of democratic nation-states cooperating with each other, not globalist structures like the European Union," Farage said.

http://insider.foxnews.com/2018/07/13/nigel-farage-says-trump-dropped-bombshell-theresa-may-uk-establishment

 

And there's this obscure character:

 

“I am increasingly admiring of Donald Trump. I have become more and more convinced that there is method in his madness,” Johnson was recorded saying at a closed-door gathering at the Institute of Directors in June 2018.

This from a man who had previously said Trump was “clearly out of his mind” for wanting to ban Muslims from entering the U.S. And in 2015, when he was mayor of London, said "I would invite him to come and see the whole of London … except that I wouldn't want to expose Londoners to any risk of meeting Donald Trump."

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/12/what-the-uks-top-politicians-have-said-about-trump--and-its-not-al.html

As many as three! Gosh, well spotted. But I didn't see any grovelling in the true sense of the word. 

[vogie]

"Mrs May is a remainer who remained a remainer" Another great interview with JRM.

 

 

[aright]

I agree a very good interview!

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, nontabury said:

So what. I never read any remarks from you,regarding the back stabbing M.P.’s who reported to the Bureaucrats in Brussels, in order to receive instructions on how to block the democratic decision of the British electorate.

 

 

 

They are trying to protect people like you from self harm. Really.

[billd766]

1 minute ago, Grouse said:

They are trying to protect people like you from self harm. Really.

 

Why would I need to be protected from self harm. I am big enough, old enough and ugly enough to make my own mind up.

 

And I did by voting Leave back in 2016 after voting to join the EEC back in 1975.

 

I admit I was wrong and lied to back then and it took 40 odd years for the government to allow me to change my mind.

 

Die you vote back then?

[Grouse]

3 hours ago, nontabury said:

 

Well lets listen to Jacob  Rees Mogg clash with a Very nasty piece of work. One of our colonial Masters.

 

 

He might be your master; he's certainly not mine. I suspect that you may have many masters; I don't

 

It astonished me that you still don't see that JRM is a duplicitous right wing bastard! Do you think he cares about you and your family or anyone else's family bar his own? 

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, billd766 said:

Die you vote back then?

May I use that? I know it was accidental but it has a certain ring to it coming from a military man! ?

 

I was a student in 1975 and I cannot remember. I hope I voted to remain; I was always pro Europe particularly northern Europe

 

Actually a meant "you" singular rather than "you" lot plural. I have no idea of your situation other than that you a man of a certain age ?

 

I honestly believe that May and Co are trying to give the majority of those who voted as much Brexit as possible without crashing out and harming many of these same people.

 

Personally, I see no benefits and only harm coming from any of this. In particular it is foolish to throw away our opt outs and rebates for no tangible gain. We should delay/extend/postpone article 50 coming to full term until we have much more of a consensus.

Edited July 15, 2018 by Grouse