11 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Do you think he cares about you and your family or anyone else's family bar his own?  

Yes! he's a devout Catholic. He doesn't approve of abortion, or dislike Muslims, how much more caring can you get?

 

3 minutes ago, aright said:

Yes! he's a devout Catholic. He doesn't approve of abortion, or dislike Muslims, how much more caring can you get?

 

Oh well! That's OK then! Why didn't you say so? 

BTW, I thought Sadiq Khan was excellent on Andrew Marr today. If all the Muslim people in the UK were like him I would have no problem.

 

It's been a monumental day for news concerning Brexit but unusually quiet here. The lul before the storm?

7 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Oh well! That's OK then! Why didn't you say so? 

 

This is from the Spectator dear boy.

 

That Rees-Mogg’s opponents so quickly resort to trying to establish him as a national joke is a symptom of their having no counter-argument to his very lucid warning, over many months, of the situation the government now finds itself in: in danger of signing up for what Rees-Mogg memorably called a ‘Vassal state’ of the EU.

True, Rees-Mogg’s fogeyish appearance makes for obvious cartoon possibilities – and his privileged upbringing allows mockery by people who would not dare poke fun at the physical characteristics, voice and clothes of someone from poor or ethnic origins. But the piss-taking is ultimately not going to distract from the logic of the argument. The ‘vassal state’ warning will come to be remembered as the wise counsel it is.          

2 minutes ago, aright said:

This is from the Spectator dear boy.

 

That Rees-Mogg’s opponents so quickly resort to trying to establish him as a national joke is a symptom of their having no counter-argument to his very lucid warning, over many months, of the situation the government now finds itself in: in danger of signing up for what Rees-Mogg memorably called a ‘Vassal state’ of the EU.

True, Rees-Mogg’s fogeyish appearance makes for obvious cartoon possibilities – and his privileged upbringing allows mockery by people who would not dare poke fun at the physical characteristics, voice and clothes of someone from poor or ethnic origins. But the piss-taking is ultimately not going to distract from the logic of the argument. The ‘vassal state’ warning will come to be remembered as the wise counsel it is.          

You misunderstand me; I applaud JRMs erudition and that he's well turned out.

 

No, it's his underlying aims and ambitions that worry me. As you must surely know, I am very pro social justice and civil society ( I'm debating moving to Copenhagen for half the year). I just don't see JRM going for that. He is an elitist / devil take the hindmost kind of person. For me, I'm happier in an egalitarian society, but everyone can make choices. I do fear that some duffers fall for JRM's chat... 

8 minutes ago, Grouse said:

You misunderstand me; I applaud JRMs erudition and that he's well turned out.

 

No, it's his underlying aims and ambitions that worry me. As you must surely know, I am very pro social justice and civil society ( I'm debating moving to Copenhagen for half the year). I just don't see JRM going for that. He is an elitist / devil take the hindmost kind of person. For me, I'm happier in an egalitarian society, but everyone can make choices. I do fear that some duffers fall for JRM's chat... 

I think I am most probably happier in an egalitarian society as well but do feel the most successful societies are as a result of some elitism within. I think you, yourself are guilty of elitism when you define the intellectual quality of Brexiteers. You imply that opinions based on ignorance or a poor education are not as valuable as those based on knowledge and should not have equal weight in a democracy. You would prefer important social and political decisions be made by people with superior intelligence and education as you see them making the best decisions. If I am wrong sorry but if I am right you are an elitist.

I don't however subscribe to the anti-intellectual notion that my ignorance is as good as your knowledge.

Respect!

 

 

 

27 minutes ago, aright said:

I think I am most probably happier in an egalitarian society as well but do feel the most successful societies are as a result of some elitism within. I think you, yourself are guilty of elitism when you define the intellectual quality of Brexiteers. You imply that opinions based on ignorance or a poor education are not as valuable as those based on knowledge and should not have equal weight in a democracy. You would prefer important social and political decisions be made by people with superior intelligence and education as you see them making the best decisions. If I am wrong sorry but if I am right you are an elitist.

I don't however subscribe to the anti-intellectual notion that my ignorance is as good as your knowledge.

Respect!

 

 

 

Ha! Hoist on my own petard! Elitist!

 

You are quite correct in what you say. We're getting into the deeper meanings of democracy here. It will take a better informed man than me to deal with this properly. I think our IDEA of representative democracy is a good one. Is it fair to say that the wise will always be in a minority? I don't know. My problem with JRM is that I can sense the duplicity; he really doesn't care about the churls. 

 

I have lived in Scandinavia with a young family. Their egalitarianism is a joy to behold. Yes taxes are high but so is happiness. The entrepreneurs are suitably rewarded but not to excess! Try a weekend in Copenhagen if you haven't already done so. Recommended!

A post violating Fair Use Policy has been removed.  

2 hours ago, aright said:

I think I am most probably happier in an egalitarian society as well but do feel the most successful societies are as a result of some elitism within. I think you, yourself are guilty of elitism when you define the intellectual quality of Brexiteers. You imply that opinions based on ignorance or a poor education are not as valuable as those based on knowledge and should not have equal weight in a democracy. You would prefer important social and political decisions be made by people with superior intelligence and education as you see them making the best decisions. If I am wrong sorry but if I am right you are an elitist.

I don't however subscribe to the anti-intellectual notion that my ignorance is as good as your knowledge.

Respect!

 

 

 

If you allow me to introduce myself in this discussion...

My point of view is that the main issue is not that so-called uneducated people voted for Brexit. Their vote matters as much as the vote of "educated people" and they have the right to defend their interest. The issue is that I don't see how Brexit will improve their situation in any way. Frankly, I don't see how an economic system based on free trade agreements worldwide (my understanding is that it means more economic liberalism, freed from the EU's social policy constraints) would improve the situation of the poor working class. Actually, they may well suffer more after Brexit than before, in particular in the case of a hard Brexit.

21 minutes ago, candide said:

If you allow me to introduce myself in this discussion...

My point of view is that the main issue is not that so-called uneducated people voted for Brexit. Their vote matters as much as the vote of "educated people" and they have the right to defend their interest. The issue is that I don't see how Brexit will improve their situation in any way. Frankly, I don't see how an economic system based on free trade agreements worldwide (my understanding is that it means more economic liberalism, freed from the EU's social policy constraints) would improve the situation of the poor working class. Actually, they may well suffer more after Brexit than before, in particular in the case of a hard Brexit.

You are most welcome!

 

My angle is that if you remove all "protectionist" non tariff barriers, you open your own people to unfair competition. Who wants to compete with Bangladeshi labour rates and working conditions? Do we want our farmers to stoop to appalling animal husbandry standards to get their food prices low enough? No of course not. We should remain and improve what we have.

19 minutes ago, Grouse said:

You are most welcome!

 

My angle is that if you remove all "protectionist" non tariff barriers, you open your own people to unfair competition. Who wants to compete with Bangladeshi labour rates and working conditions? Do we want our farmers to stoop to appalling animal husbandry standards to get their food prices low enough? No of course not. We should remain and improve what we have.

The farmer already operates low animal husbandry standards. The most abused animal in the food chain is the chicken and the price across chains is extremely competitive because the great unwashed recognize it as probably the most acceptable  cheapest form of protein closely followed by pork. The first thing to suffer when a supermarket chain wants cheaper chicken (or any meat) is the animal. In 2012 battery cages were banned in the UK but it is estimated 50 million hens across  Europe live in very poor conditions.13 EU countries have not banned cages. I think the vast majority of people would want to see the best animal welfare standards however when you are unemployed or in a low paying job and have to put food on the table for a wife and three kids the issue is price not welfare.

More on Bangladesh and Primark tomorrow its bed o'clock . Goodnight!

Good Morning Campers 

 

Did we all have a good weekend ? Much better than May's I hope ?

 

Quote

Britain’s former trade commissioner in Brussels, Lord Mandelson, is making common cause with hardline, anti-EU Tories, saying Theresa May’s latest Brexit blueprint would lead to “national humiliation” and leave the country in a worse position than if it turned its back on the entire European economic system.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jul/14/mandelson-brexiters-may-eu-humiliation-opinium-poll

 

When a dyed in the wool Europhile savages your great White Bog Roll, there is something far wrong.

 

Quote

Labour has opened up its biggest poll lead over the Conservatives since shortly after last June’s general election, as the government’s chaotic handling of Brexit appears to have triggered a dramatic fall in support for Theresa May and the Tories – and a sudden revival of Ukip.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jul/14/labour-opens-up-biggest-lead-over-tories-since-general-election

 

Taxi for May.

So deluded is May becoming

 

Quote

British Prime Minister Theresa May warned her divided party on Sunday that there may be “no Brexit at all” if they wrecked her plan to forge a close relationship with the European Union after leaving the world’s biggest trading bloc.

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-may/may-warns-rebels-back-me-or-risk-no-brexit-at-all-idUSKBN1K412G

 

Sure May, the Tory Party are going to sit idly by whilst you get them voted out of Government and keep them out of Government for at least a generation.

8 hours ago, aright said:

This is from the Spectator dear boy.

 

That Rees-Mogg’s opponents so quickly resort to trying to establish him as a national joke is a symptom of their having no counter-argument to his very lucid warning, over many months, of the situation the government now finds itself in: in danger of signing up for what Rees-Mogg memorably called a ‘Vassal state’ of the EU.

True, Rees-Mogg’s fogeyish appearance makes for obvious cartoon possibilities – and his privileged upbringing allows mockery by people who would not dare poke fun at the physical characteristics, voice and clothes of someone from poor or ethnic origins. But the piss-taking is ultimately not going to distract from the logic of the argument. The ‘vassal state’ warning will come to be remembered as the wise counsel it is.          

The ‘vassal state’ argument, paying to EU and subject to EU laws and regulations over which the UK has nolonger a day was an argument put forward by Remain during the referendum campaign.

 

Brexiteers filed it under ‘Project Fear’.

 

For something pure Rees-Mogg, what did he discuss with Steve Bannon during their meeting?

Trump inserting himself into Brexit is wonderful news for Remain.

 

 

26 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

So deluded is May becoming

 

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-may/may-warns-rebels-back-me-or-risk-no-brexit-at-all-idUSKBN1K412G

 

Sure May, the Tory Party are going to sit idly by whilst you get them voted out of Government and keep them out of Government for at least a generation.

Interesting that you and I both think she is likely to destroy the Tories for a generation, but for different reasons !

1 minute ago, tebee said:

Interesting that you and I both think she is likely to destroy the Tories for a generation, but for different reasons !

There is a simple answer to that tebee.

 

Your negativity makes you too one dimensional and you cannot see that every problem has more than one solution.

 

2 defining statements from May.

 

'' Brexit means Brexit ''

 

And

 

'' No deal is better than a bad deal ''

 

Her Chequers White Bog Roll destroys both statements.

 

As I pointed out 3 comments ago. She is now so deluded that she is now threatening:

 

Quote

Back me or risk 'no Brexit at all'

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-may/may-warns-rebels-back-me-or-risk-no-brexit-at-all-idUSKBN1K412G

 

She, herself has made her position untenable.

 

The Political axe is poised, ready to fall.

Interesting statement from Donald Tusk

 

Quote

European Council President Donald Tusk said on Monday China, the United States and Russia had a duty not to start trade wars and called on the three countries to reform the World Trade Organization.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-eu-tusk/eus-tusk-calls-on-china-u-s-russia-not-to-start-trade-wars-idUSKBN1K606S?il=0

 

I think that the WTO is no more capable of internal reform than the EU is ?

JRM reacts to PM/Andrew Marr

 

19 hours ago, vogie said:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jul/14/mandelson-brexiters-may-eu-humiliation-opinium-poll

 

Peter Mandelson joins Brexiters in attack on May’s EU ‘humiliation

Peter Mandelson says it would be better just to drop out of the EU than to follow Mays blueprint.

I find that worrying.

 

If Mandelson hates May's 'blueprint' so much - perhaps it has something going for it???

10 minutes ago, evadgib said:

JRM reacts to PM/Andrew Marr

Articulate as always.

 

Highlights very well the difference in TM's Mansion house speech and her Chequers White Bog Roll.

 

What is also rather interesting, in the week since her White Bog Roll was published, the EU / Barnier have been strangely silent ??

 

I said previously, in a conversation with dick dasterdly, that I believed May was slowly backing the EU into a corner. 

 

I think she has now achieved that. Let the EU reject it ( hence the silence from the EU ) and May can then tell all the remainers that there are NO OPTIONS left and WTO rules it is.

13 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

I find that worrying.

 

If Mandelson hates May's 'blueprint' so much - perhaps it has something going for it???

I don't think so Dick, I think it just proves that May is pleasing nobody.

17 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

Articulate as always.

 

Highlights very well the difference in TM's Mansion house speech and her Chequers White Bog Roll.

 

What is also rather interesting, in the week since her White Bog Roll was published, the EU / Barnier have been strangely silent ??

 

I said previously, in a conversation with dick dasterdly, that I believed May was slowly backing the EU into a corner. 

 

I think she has now achieved that. Let the EU reject it ( hence the silence from the EU ) and May can then tell all the remainers that there are NO OPTIONS left and WTO rules it is.

But what happens if you EU don't reject it out of hand?

 

I must admit, I can't see them not reject it.

 

But - 

 

It's a very good deal economically for the EU - it lets them bleed the  UK dry of all it's profitable service industries, while  letting them still make profitable goods exports to us - It seems to be the very essence of a bad deal that may be  worse than no deal - I have no idea why the party of business - supposedly - is proposing such a deal.

 

It does however, case the EU a certain amount of political grief, it's like another  Swiss deal, which they were trying to avoid.

 

Of course it's such a messy complicated deal that, having left it this long, may be impossible to implement without postponing art 50 or extending transition. 

20 minutes ago, tebee said:

But what happens if you EU don't reject it out of hand?

 

I must admit, I can't see them not reject it.

 

But - 

 

It's a very good deal economically for the EU - it lets them bleed the  UK dry of all it's profitable service industries, while  letting them still make profitable goods exports to us - It seems to be the very essence of a bad deal that may be  worse than no deal - I have no idea why the party of business - supposedly - is proposing such a deal.

 

It does however, case the EU a certain amount of political grief, it's like another  Swiss deal, which they were trying to avoid.

 

Of course it's such a messy complicated deal that, having left it this long, may be impossible to implement without postponing art 50 or extending transition. 

It’s a big white flag to the EU.

 

The EU know TM is in a week position, they’ll accept to push the negotiations further all the while softening the UK’s deal.

1 hour ago, The Renegade said:

Articulate as always.

 

Highlights very well the difference in TM's Mansion house speech and her Chequers White Bog Roll.

 

What is also rather interesting, in the week since her White Bog Roll was published, the EU / Barnier have been strangely silent ??

 

I said previously, in a conversation with dick dasterdly, that I believed May was slowly backing the EU into a corner. 

 

I think she has now achieved that. Let the EU reject it ( hence the silence from the EU ) and May can then tell all the remainers that there are NO OPTIONS left and WTO rules it is.

Have to agree that it's a bit odd that the eu negotiatiors have said pretty much nothing about the white paper.

 

I'm not convinced that May has been "slowly backing the EU into a corner" though.  Why do this rather than make it very clear from the start that the uk govt. isn't accepting the eu's 'negotiating agenda', but are more than happy to talk about a trade deal?  The brit. govt. (under May), has done the opposite - which makes me very cynical....

10 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

'm not convinced that May has been "slowly backing the EU into a corner" though.  Why do this rather than make it very clear from the start that the uk govt. isn't accepting the eu's 'negotiating agenda', but are more than happy to talk about a trade deal?  The brit. govt. (under May), has done the opposite - which makes me very cynical....

TM is a remainer, she has to try and appease remainers, what better way to do this than let the EU reject this latest White Bog Paper ?

 

From Politico

 

Quote

First, trade. The EU should build a web of free-trade agreements with like-minded nations and regional groupings,

https://www.politico.eu/article/donald-trumop-europe-hour-has-come/

 

We have all seen and read the efforts the EU has made to do the exact opposite when it comes to the UK. An FTA is not on the table, why would that be ?

 

Quite simply, the EU is in protection mode and will do, or agree to nothing, in case the UK goes on and makes a success of Brexit. It will destroy their entire reason for being in existence. 

1 minute ago, The Renegade said:

TM is a remainer, she has to try and appease remainers, what better way to do this than let the EU reject this latest White Bog Paper ?

 

From Politico

 

https://www.politico.eu/article/donald-trumop-europe-hour-has-come/

 

We have all seen and read the efforts the EU has made to do the exact opposite when it comes to the UK. An FTA is not on the table, why would that be ?

 

Quite simply, the EU is in protection mode and will do, or agree to nothing, in case the UK goes on and makes a success of Brexit. It will destroy their entire reason for being in existence. 

If they thought that the UK was likely to make a success of a hard Brexit, that would be an incentive to compromise. Exactly the opposite of what you contend,.

15 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Have to agree that it's a bit odd that the eu negotiatiors have said pretty much nothing about the white paper.

 

I'm not convinced that May has been "slowly backing the EU into a corner" though.  Why do this rather than make it very clear from the start that the uk govt. isn't accepting the eu's 'negotiating agenda', but are more than happy to talk about a trade deal?  The brit. govt. (under May), has done the opposite - which makes me very cynical....

The UK formally agreed with the negotiating agenda of the EU; first withdrawal agreement followed by trade talks.

I am sure the EU knows in what kind of precarious situation May is. If they apply too much pressure the crisis will only worsen and as it is the divisions within the UK are already reaching breaking point. The EU cannot accept the Chequers plan but there is no need to shoot it down immediately (the UK will take care of that themselves).

1 hour ago, tebee said:

It's a very good deal economically for the EU - it lets them bleed the  UK dry of all it's profitable service industries,

OK tebee

 

Time to burst some more of your myths.

 

Myth 1. Services

 

The US, who is not a member of the EU or the SM / CU

 

Quote

U.S. goods and services trade with the EU totaled nearly $1.1 trillion in 2016.  Exports totaled $501 billion; Imports totaled $592 billion.  

https://ustr.gov/countries-regions/europe-middle-east/europe/european-union

 

So much for having to be a member of the SM / CU to trade in Services, the EU / Barnier.

 

Myth 2. Finance

 

The UK cannot be a € clearing house after Brexit, have to be a member of the EU, the EU / Barnier.

 

The EU / Barnier had better tell New York, who are the Worlds 2nd largest € Clearing House after London.

 

So are the EU / Barnier liars, clueless or just trying to keep Project Fear going ?

4 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

OK tebee

 

Time to burst some more of your myths.

 

Myth 1. Services

 

The US, who is not a member of the EU or the SM / CU

 

https://ustr.gov/countries-regions/europe-middle-east/europe/european-union

 

So much for having to be a member of the SM / CU to trade in Services, the EU / Barnier.

 

Myth 2. Finance

 

The UK cannot be a € clearing house after Brexit, have to be a member of the EU, the EU / Barnier.

 

The EU / Barnier had better tell New York, who are the Worlds 2nd largest € Clearing House after London.

 

So are the EU / Barnier liars, clueless or just trying to keep Project Fear going ?

The big problem for the UK is financial services.  That's where there is a huge trade surplus in UK's favor with the rest of the EU.

The UK and the US can host clearing houses for transactions in their own currencies or allow other nations to do the same. But if the EU says you can clear transactions for EU nations then you can be shut out.

The thing is, most of the UK clearing houses are now owned by American financial houses due to the massive incompetence of their original UK owners. I believe that only the Rothschilds survive as a UK house. So not much incentive for American firms to let UK firms poach on their territory even if the US allows it.