Put your cards on the table, EU makes last Brexit call to Britain

[melvinmelvin]

35 minutes ago, stephenterry said:

It might surprise you, but far north of the Watford gap, are counties where unemployment reigned. People living on benefits who voted leave because it was better than their current situation, and all because successive UK governments let British industry die which put them out of work with no prospects.

 

You really ought to keep up, BB, with the realities of life. Ever been out of work? You'll vote for anything that could change your miserable existence. And that's being polite. 

 

couple of comments;

 

it is not the UK governments that let British industry die,

it is the British industry that ain't capable to hack the commercial environment they're competing in

 

(being out of work  is a sad sad story)

 

and UKers at large, in millions and millions, vote conservative to remedy that?  

(what a laugh, but UK is not alone - this happens in several countries in Europe / yes - UK is still in Europe)

 

[nontabury]

1 hour ago, stephenterry said:

It might surprise you, but far north of the Watford gap, are counties where unemployment reigned. People living on benefits who voted leave because it was better than their current situation, and all because successive UK governments let British industry die which put them out of work with no prospects.

 

You really ought to keep up, BB, with the realities of life. Ever been out of work? You'll vote for anything that could change your miserable existence. And that's being polite. 

You forgot to mention, that the open boarder policy of the E.U. has a great deal to answer for as regards unemployment, and of course on the pressure of wages for the lower paid. But why should the selfish remoaners be concerned.

 

 

[tebee]

Here's a handy Brexit flowchart 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

6 hours ago, nontabury said:

You forgot to mention, that the open boarder policy of the E.U. has a great deal to answer for as regards unemployment, and of course on the pressure of wages for the lower paid. But why should the selfish remoaners be concerned.

 

 

An argument based on workers being helpless.

 

Well those that don’t join unions are.

 

Those that do earn higher wages and enjoy better working conditions.

 

So let’s not join a union and blame the EU for the rapacious practices of British employers.

 

While of course turning a blind eye to the fact that the Tories are openly planning a post-Brexit purge of EU regulations and laws protecting worker’s rights.

 

If you think British workers suffer in the EU, you’ve seen nothing yet.

[The Renegade]

13 hours ago, tomacht8 said:

https://www.bangkokpost.com/news/world/1505058/eu-japan-to-sign-massive-trade-deal-as-us-puts-up-barriers#cxrecs_s

Copied and pasted from a UK news outlet

 

Quote

https://money.cnn.com/2018/07/17/news/economy/eu-japan-trade-deal/index.html

 

The EU trolls are pushing this line today. This is at least the 20th such post today. And only the Russians have troll factories?

Look on the bright side TV readers, it has only been posted on TV 3 or 4 times ??

 

There are NO such people on TV ???

[stephenterry]

1 hour ago, The Renegade said:

Copied and pasted from a UK news outlet

 

Look on the bright side TV readers, it has only been posted on TV 3 or 4 times ??

 

There are NO such people on TV ???

I think you might just have to accept that this is a great and massive (almost) tariff-free deal between Japan and the EU when it comes into implementation in 2019 - and I expect every EU country to sign off their agreement to it.

 

Looks like the UK have shot themselves in the foot, big time, by leaving the EU. Interesting times ahead when parliament get to recognise this would counter any Trump-led trade deal - and good riddance to him. 

 

And yes, the UK could hope for a bilateral deal with Japan to avoid job losses in the UK car industry - and maybe that could come to fruition during a transitory stage. But it's clear as far as trade deals are concerned the UK will be in a catch-up mode for a long time ahead.

[tebee]

1 hour ago, The Renegade said:

Copied and pasted from a UK news outlet

 

Look on the bright side TV readers, it has only been posted on TV 3 or 4 times ??

 

There are NO such people on TV ???

You know all those trade deals that were going to be so easy ?

 

This is what the EU-Japan trade deal looks like on paper 

 

 

If you want to read what it says - http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/press/index.cfm?id=1684

 

This is why these thing take years - the world is not as simple as Brexiters would like to believe 

[RuamRudy]

1 minute ago, tebee said:

You know all those trade deals that were going to be so easy ?

 

This is what the EU-Japan trade deal looks like on paper 

 

 

If you want to read what it says - http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/press/index.cfm?id=1684

 

This is why these thing take years - the world is not as simple as Brexiters would like to believe 

But the EU doesn't have Dr Fox negotiating on their behalf, do they? Jam makers and sunglasses manufacturers up and down the UK will have the last laugh!

[Ron19]

Troll and flame posts have been removed as well as answers to them.

 

[tebee]

2 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

Why did you give me this to read tebee ?

 

You could not even read and understand Faisal Islam's tweet that you posted yesterday.

 

Yet again I have to remind you. It takes the EU that long to do a trade deal. The rest of the World is not the EU

I disagree with your interpretation of it  - I can't help it if your cognitive bias prevents you from seeing the truth.

 

All trade deals take a long time, the Trans-Pacific Partnership (with no EU involvement)has been in negotiation for 13 years and is still not in force 

[The Renegade]

34 minutes ago, stephenterry said:

I think you might just have to accept that this is a great and massive (almost) tariff-free deal between Japan and the EU when it comes into implementation in 2019 - and I expect every EU country to sign off their agreement to it.

 

You might have to accept that it might be better waiting for it to come to fruition, rather than crowing about it early and ending up with egg on your face.

 

36 minutes ago, stephenterry said:

Looks like the UK have shot themselves in the foot, big time,

Why ?

 

1. It does not include '' Services '' so it actually shafts the UK.

 

2. If the EU is so desperate for FTA's - Why does it not want to do an FTA with the UK.

 

3. ECJ is not the arbiter in any Trade dispute - Why will the EU not extend the same to the UK ?

 

For the simple reason that the EU can not bear the thought that the UK might just be successful outside the EU so it is trying to keep the UK shackled to the EU. Ohhh, and £12 Billion a year, of the UK's moolah will also play it's part.

[The Renegade]

5 minutes ago, tebee said:

I disagree with your interpretation of it  - I can't help it if your cognitive bias prevents you from seeing the truth.

Coming from you tebee. That is side splitting funny

 

???

 

You want me to repost it and embarrass you ? It wont take long, it was only yesterday

[tebee]

22 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

Rather than crow about it, it might be better to wait and see if it actually happens.

 

Why ?

 

1. It does not include '' Services '' so the UK was actually shafted by this '' Great Deal '' 

 

2. If the EU is so keen on FTA's - Why will they not strike one with the UK ?

 

3. Why is the ECJ not the arbiter of any Trade dispute - Which the EU insists with the UK ?

 

Questions that the deaf, dumb and blind kids will ignore, obfuscate or wildly deny.

1. It didn't include services because the UK didn't want to include them! - presumably because you need FOM to deliver services.

2: EU has suggested Canada style FTA, but UK has not taken them up on that offer.

3: ECJ is arbiter of Single Market - you can't be part of it without some have some form of retribution if you do something wrong, otherwise it's a very uneven playing field. 

[stephenterry]

3 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

You might have to accept that it might be better waiting for it to come to fruition, rather than crowing about it early and ending up with egg on your face.

 

Why ?

 

1. It does not include '' Services '' so it actually shafts the UK.

 

2. If the EU is so desperate for FTA's - Why does it not want to do an FTA with the UK.

 

3. ECJ is not the arbiter in any Trade dispute - Why will the EU not extend the same to the UK ?

 

For the simple reason that the EU can not bear the thought that the UK might just be successful outside the EU so it is trying to keep the UK shackled to the EU. Ohhh, and £12 Billion a year, of the UK's moolah will also play it's part.

A more cognitive response. Maybe you should join JR-M's band of Tory rebels, or at least offer them advice on how to ensure Brexit does have a fighting chance to succeed, even though the Customs Union conflict will probably bring down the government when the Upper House reject the bill and send it back to the Commons.

[The Renegade]

4 minutes ago, tebee said:

1. It didn't include services because the UK didn't want to include them! - presumably because you need FOM to deliver services.

2: EU has suggested Canada style FTA, but UK has not taken them up on that offer.

3: ECJ is arbiter of Single Market - you can't be part of it without some have some form of retribution if you do something wrong, otherwise it's a very uneven playing field. 

1. Evidence ?

 

The EU have offered the UK NOTHING that is not directly under the control of the Brussels or the ECJ.

 

The EU have NOT offered the UK an FTA because it means losing control of the UK.

 

Simple as that.

 

And if you want to try and refute that, then provide evidence. Your opinion is not evidence.

[sandyf]

17 hours ago, nontabury said:

 

As one of those who voted to join the EEC in the seventies, I now realise that I was completely conned, into thinking we were joining a trading block. However the politicians and the Establishment then decided that it must be changed into an overbearing political so called Union. Unfortunately for them, the thinking people became more aware of what was intended, due to being better informed, mainly due to the the mass information available over the internet, rather than solely relying on the Now outmoded established media.

 As a matter of interest Sandy, what are your thoughts on the EEC as against the E.U. Pros and cons,would be a good starting point.

Not sure what you mean by "the Establishment then decided" , the future plans of the European Community, as it was generally known, were well documented before the UK joined. I wouldn't disagree that those plans were not widely publicised at the time of joining or the referendum.

The same could be said of the brexit referendum, the technical arrangements and many other issues were not widely publicised prior to the referendum. There were warnings about the effect of leaving the EU on the Belfast Agreement but no one took much notice, there was a lot more concern over claims like 60 million Turks coming to the UK and money for the NHS.

 

I had a fairly wide experience of manufacturing capital equipment and shipping it all around the world, before and after the single market. Many just do not realise the paperwork hassle and the costs involved. The introduction of the single market became a huge incentive to UK business to start exporting to Europe, became as easy as selling in the UK.

The UK is now party to a multitude of trade deals set up by the EU and to kick them into touch in favour of going it alone is nothing short of shooting yourself in the foot. Research has confirmed that suppliers would rather deal with customers close to home than those on the other side of the world. I would agree that trade isn't everything but it fuels the economy and without money the country is going nowhere, something that seems to have gone over the head of many.

The EU is far from perfect but in this day and age it is the best of a bad job.

[The Renegade]

4 minutes ago, stephenterry said:

even though the Customs Union conflict will probably bring down the government when the Upper House reject the bill

You might want to direct that comment to tebee.

 

He did not understand this yesterday, despite me pointing it to him at least 3 times.

[bristolboy]

2 hours ago, The Renegade said:

Copied and pasted from a UK news outlet

 

Look on the bright side TV readers, it has only been posted on TV 3 or 4 times ??

 

There are NO such people on TV ???

So trolls are people who post factual information? Should we be surprised that you believe this?

[tebee]

1: 

2 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

1. Evidence ?

 

The EU have offered the UK NOTHING that is not directly under the control of the Brussels or the ECJ.

 

The EU have NOT offered the UK an FTA because it means losing control of the UK.

 

Simple as that.

 

And if you want to try and refute that, then provide evidence. Your opinion is not evidence.

The UK wrote the deal ! what was in the white paper was presumably what the UK wants ? 

 

As regards the Canada deal,  the EU has always been prepared to offer this - at one point they were going to write it out for the UK as we seemed to be unable to put any coherent proposals of our own together.

 

https://www.ft.com/content/30705bfc-e5a6-11e7-97e2-916d4fbac0da

[tebee]

And here from Brexit central of all people !

 

https://brexitcentral.com/theresa-may-accept-eus-offer-canada-style-deal-claim-diplomatic-triumph/

[sandyf]

12 hours ago, nontabury said:

You forgot to mention, that the open boarder policy of the E.U. has a great deal to answer for as regards unemployment, and of course on the pressure of wages for the lower paid. But why should the selfish remoaners be concerned.

 

 

There is no  "the open boarder policy of the E.U." , member states have the right to restrict numbers entering the country, something the UK government did not bother to enforce.

For some strange reason some seem to think that UK borders will be closed, whatever that means. However a border that is currently a border between 2 member states will become an open border between the EU and the UK.

There is already concerns over people smuggling across this border, something that will only escalate post brexit.

[The Renegade]

3 minutes ago, tebee said:

As regards the Canada deal,  the EU has always been prepared to offer this

tebee

 

According to the EU / Barnier. The 4 pillars of the EU are non negotiable. Therefore, despite what you might find trawling the internet. A Canada deal was never an option.

 

CETA does not have the ECJ as an arbiter and it does not have '' Freedom of Movement ''

 

A Canada deal, without the 4 EU pillars is anathema to the EU.

 

Despite what you might read at Brexit Central, the details of this '' alleged '' offer needs to be seen.

 

A Canada type deal, but having to accept the 4 EU pillars is not a Canada type deal.

[sandyf]

Bit like the referendum,we will get the votes we want, one way or another.

 

Reports suggested Julian Smith, the Tories’ chief whip, had faced down potential rebels by threatening to call a vote of no confidence in the government if the amendment was passed.  

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/government-win-customs-union-eu-brexit-vote-commons-tory-remain-rebels-theresa-may-a8451886.html

[The Renegade]

Wrong again.

 

Member States cannot stop EU people coming, they can however, restrict those that can stay. 

 

This is what the UK failed to enforce due to the outcry of Liberals, Lawyers et al.

[The Renegade]

2 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Bit like the referendum,we will get the votes we want, one way or another.

 

Reports suggested Julian Smith, the Tories’ chief whip, had faced down potential rebels by threatening to call a vote of no confidence in the government if the amendment was passed.  

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/government-win-customs-union-eu-brexit-vote-commons-tory-remain-rebels-theresa-may-a8451886.html

Another month of hemorrhaging support and a vote of NO confidence will be called anyway.

 

Lords step in and and a vote of NO confidence will be called.

 

EU accept May White Bog Roll and a vote of NO confidence will be called.

 

One way or another, it is coming.

[bristolboy]

1 minute ago, The Renegade said:

Wrong again.

 

Member States cannot stop EU people coming, they can however, restrict those that can stay. 

 

This is what the UK failed to enforce due to the outcry of Liberals, Lawyers et al.

You know what he meant  and how that would be the common understanding of it. You win on a technicality.

And you blame liberals and lawyers? Deflecting much?

[tebee]

12 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

tebee

 

According to the EU / Barnier. The 4 pillars of the EU are non negotiable. Therefore, despite what you might find trawling the internet. A Canada deal was never an option.

 

CETA does not have the ECJ as an arbiter and it does not have '' Freedom of Movement ''

 

A Canada deal, without the 4 EU pillars is anathema to the EU.

 

Despite what you might read at Brexit Central, the details of this '' alleged '' offer needs to be seen.

 

A Canada type deal, but having to accept the 4 EU pillars is not a Canada type deal.

Canada did not have to accept the 4 EU pillars and neither would the UK 

[tebee]

46 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

Coming from you tebee. That is side splitting funny

 

???

 

You want me to repost it and embarrass you ? It wont take long, it was only yesterday

Your argument was a minor point of semantics as to whether "the government is legislating to "  referred to   the process of legislating or the final implementation of that legislation only.  Tis something that can be argued either way, but relatively irrelevant to the main point. 

 

Don't worry, it's OK , I think you are an idiot too, but am far to polite to say so.

[The Renegade]

3 minutes ago, tebee said:

Canada did not have to accept the 4 EU pillars and neither would the UK 

This is what I said.

 

20 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

A Canada type deal, but having to accept the 4 EU pillars is not a Canada type deal.

The EU / Barnier have made it clear that any deal that the UK has with the EU will require ECJ primacy and  '' Freedom of Movement '' is non negotiable.

 

Read and understood so far ?

 

Good, we can proceed.

 

So whatever '' Canada Type deal '' is being punted about the internet is not a '' Canada type deal '' 

 

As I pointed out above

 

23 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

CETA does not have the ECJ as an arbiter and it does not have '' Freedom of Movement ''

Not that difficult to understand.

 

 

[stephenterry]

21 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

Another month of hemorrhaging support and a vote of NO confidence will be called anyway.

 

Lords step in and and a vote of NO confidence will be called.

 

EU accept May White Bog Roll and a vote of NO confidence will be called.

 

One way or another, it is coming.

I agree. It is inevitable.

Edited July 18, 2018 by stephenterry