Put your cards on the table, EU makes last Brexit call to Britain

[stephenterry]

Just now, bristolboy said:

The conservatives have been engaged in a systematic campaign to slash benefits in order to further their goal of turning the UK benefits system into a duplicate of the American system.

I would suggest that the UK's austerity programme is a result of abiding by Keynesian economics, and nothing to do with duplicating the US system (if that's factual).  For a Tory government, slashing benefits is par for the course..

 

[tebee]

2 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

Aren't you ignoring the fact that the conservatives have slashed taxes on the wealthy and have been extremely reluctant to crack down on their use of tax havens? There would be less of a burden on the middle class if the conservatives decided to act in their interests for a change.

That's why I referred to it as a tax on being middle class rather than a tax on being wealthy! 

[RuamRudy]

29 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

Which is why I have to keep telling tebee in particular.

 

Ignore the short term hysterics from remainers, the outcome of Brexit, whether it be good or bad, will not be known for about a generation.

 

Far too many people using Poundland crystal balls, to come up with garbage.

 

You have decided that expert opinion is 'garbage' but ALL you have to offer is 'wait and see what happens'? 

[bristolboy]

3 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

The so called progressives would rather stay in the EU, allow unlimited immigration, no need for any training, unlimited supply of cheap labour and consign some aspects of the British population to a life of benefits.

 

The progressives, under Labour from 1997 onwards pushed an agenda that everyone should go to University, get a degree and become CEO's, high flying Corporate Lawyers, Generals and Admirals and did not need to get their hands dirty at the coal face to get there.

 

This is one of the MAIN REASONS that Millennials are now goosed. Why worry ? It was great for Labours unemployment figures.

 

Progressives indeed.

 

 

Yes. Coal mining. Like that's not a dead end job. And I wasn't aware that it was the Labour that pretty much put an end to it. Unless Margaret Thatcher was a secret Socialist.

[The Renegade]

10 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

Maybe you don't do this but most people when they make a decision use the best evidence they can find to predict what the likely outcome of such a decision will be.

Yes tebee, I do.

 

And guess what ?

 

Could, might, perhaps and forecast do not come into my equation.

 

So perhaps you could actually produce some facts ??

 

Lets start with an easy one ?

 

Can you name a bank that has now upped sticks and left London ?

[bristolboy]

1 minute ago, tebee said:

That's why I referred to it as a tax on being middle class rather than a tax on being wealthy! 

Well, it is a tax on both just not enough of one on the wealthy. But I see your point.

[bristolboy]

3 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

Yes tebee, I do.

 

And guess what ?

 

Could, might, perhaps and forecast do not come into my equation.

 

So perhaps you could actually produce some facts ??

 

Lets start with an easy one ?

 

Can you name a bank that has now upped sticks and left London ?

What does it take to make you understand that Brexit hasn't happened yet? And even when it does, they will still need offices in the UK. But they will be doing less business in the UK and more in the EU,

Edited July 19, 2018 by bristolboy

[tebee]

3 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

Yes tebee, I do.

 

And guess what ?

 

Could, might, perhaps and forecast do not come into my equation.

 

So perhaps you could actually produce some facts ??

 

Lets start with an easy one ?

 

Can you name a bank that has now upped sticks and left London ?

It wasn't me wot said that !

 

But ....

 

If you ignore forecasting you are only left with the possibility of reacting to things that have already happened - by then it may be too late ! 

 

You know businesses and governments spend lots of money employing people to do forecasts for them - they don't do it just to give jobs to those people.

 

There are some things you don't need a crystal ball for - I can say with certainty if you burn down your house you will be  not be as comfortable living in the remains. 

 

Brexit hasn't happened yet.

 

When it does the job losses won't all happen on day one   - it will be the slow boiling of a frog... the water is getting warmer already though. 

[bristolboy]

Just now, tebee said:

It wasn't me wot said that !

 

 

Should I be flattered that he thought so?

[The Renegade]

22 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

You have decided that expert opinion is 'garbage' but ALL you have to offer is 'wait and see what happens'? 

Did I really ?

 

Sort out your English comprehension.

 

54 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

Ignore the short term hysterics from remainers, the outcome of Brexit, whether it be good or bad, will not be known for about a generation.

 

Far too many people using Poundland crystal balls, to come up with garbage.

I specifically said. '' The outcome of Brexit, good or bad, will not be known for a Generation ''

 

I also specifically said '' Too many people '' not '' Too many experts ''

 

Experts, if they are worth their salt, will have Harrod's crystal balls, not Poundland crystal balls.

 

Edited July 19, 2018 by The Renegade

[melvinmelvin]

 

Did you guys see/hear BJ Johnsons so long speech to the house?

 

My guess is that he would do way better as PM than as Minister of Foreign affairs.

 

[The Renegade]

13 minutes ago, tebee said:

When it does the job losses won't all happen on day one   - it will be the slow boiling of a frog... the water is getting warmer already though. 

So, according to you, job will be lost due to Brexit.

 

Did it never occur to you that jobs will also be created by Brexit ?

 

Nah. That would never enter your head, you, and people like you can only focus on the negative.

Edited July 19, 2018 by The Renegade

[RuamRudy]

1 minute ago, The Renegade said:

Did I really ?

 

Sort out your English comprehension.

 

I specifically said. '' The outcome of Brexit, good or bad, will not be known for a Generation ''

 

I also specifically said '' Too many people '' not '' Too many experts ''

 

My English comprehension is fine, but for the record, do you therefore accept the conclusions of multiple experts, including the government's own, who conclude that the net effect of Brexit will be, in all scenarios, detrimental to the economy of the country?

 

4 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

I specifically said. '' The outcome of Brexit, good or bad, will not be known for a Generation ''

I interpret this as you acknowledging that you have no idea which way Brexit will go. Can you confirm if my interpretation is correct? If not, can you elaborate on what you do mean? If so, do you not agree that Brexit is, at the very least, reckless and cavalier?

[dick dasterdly]

1 hour ago, stephenterry said:

There will be good and bad tradesmen whatever their nationality. Best way to avoid bad workmanship is to visit one of their completed projects, get recommendations or not, as most sensible people would do. Whether it happens in the UK or the EU is neither here nor there.

 

And as we're on the topic, the influx of lower paid workers from the EU, is that British (non) workers on benefits can't be arsed to do to menial jobs like hotel staff jobs and seasonal fruit-pickers - therefore leaving a gap in the labour market. It's called having a 'work ethic' that today's British 'breadline workers' seem to lack (as a generality).

 

If Brexit is going to cause massive  job losses in the UK, for whatever reason, it should be a government concern that needs to be addressed during the negotiations with the EU, something that Johnson and his Brexit cronies of the same ilk, with all their upper-class financial stability and constant blue-sky rhetoric, cannot grasp - or choose to ignore.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"the influx of lower paid workers from the EU, is that British (non) workers on benefits can't be arsed to do to menial jobs like hotel staff jobs and seasonal fruit-pickers - therefore leaving a gap in the labour market.  It's called having a 'work ethic' that today's British 'breadline workers' seem to lack (as a generality)."

 

We had a discussion on one of these brexit threads about seasonal veg/fruit pickers a while ago and, IIRC, we agreed to disagree - or at least gave up arguing about it, as we were never going to agree ?.

 

But I do agree to a certain extent  with the second sentence, as there's no doubt that my work ethic was/is far lower than my parents.  My generation was very lucky in enjoying good salaries and company pension schemes.

 

HOWEVER, it's disingenuous not to recognise that "today's British 'breadline workers'" are unable to survive on the low wages offered by employers, and frequently need to rely on govt. handouts to top us their wage....  Being paid peanuts and so relying on govt. handouts, is entirely different to being in a well-paid position!  Which is why I sometimes get annoyed at the fortunate complaining about the 'deficiencies' of the unfortunate.

[The Renegade]

2 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

I interpret this

You interpret that whatever way you like.

 

It is pretty plain and straight forward English that anyone should be able to understand.

 

Quote

The outcome of Brexit, good or bad, will not be known for a Generation.

 

[bristolboy]

4 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

Did I really ?

 

Sort out your English comprehension.

 

I specifically said. '' The outcome of Brexit, good or bad, will not be known for a Generation ''

 

I also specifically said '' Too many people '' not '' Too many experts ''

 

Clearly it's your comprehension of what you say that's lacking. You don't see the obvious contradiction here? I can't believe you actually cited the following 2 sentences as evidence. Talk about hoist by your own petard:

 

"I specifically said. '' The outcome of Brexit, good or bad, will not be known for a Generation ''

 

I also specifically said '' Too many people '' not '' Too many experts ''

 

So if it's not possible to know the outcome, then that can only be because there are no people who are in a position thanks to their knowledge and research to have a more accurate idea of what that outcome can be. Another word for such people is "experts." Therefore, by your own reasoning, there are no experts. 

[tebee]

2 hours ago, vogie said:

 

Why do you say "I hear," where did you hear this, from Pierre the local rumour spreader, you live there have you got an opinion about British builders (I know you said English),

When I lived in in France I found that the British builders did an excellent job and were not "cheap" it was the French that was rediculously expensive. The Brits had the skills to do anything asked of them unlike, as you rightly said their French counterparts. 

So I think it is unjust to try and compare a Brit builder with a Polish builder, I hear. ?

 

I've got 4 houses in France, on long term lets. When I rebuilt them, although I did three quarters of the work myself(+family members)  , I also employed both British and French builders to do work, so I spoke to many myself.

 

French ones, very good workmanship, but expensive and very long lead times - some couldn't start the work for two years !

British ones, a mixed bag, had one really good guy, but he returned to the Uk to build his retirement home there, before the PP on the plot he had bought ran out. Others less so - one "master builder" ended up having to redo about 50% of what he did, another tilled  a shower  by butting the tiles together and not using any grout. 

 

Worst I saw, was someone else's house, where they proudly showed off their new loft conversion - the guy had cut through  the horizontals of the A frame to give the headroom and cut through half the rafters on one side to put in a dormer. All that was now supporting them was a piece of 6 x 1 nailed across the cut ends!   

 

  

[The Renegade]

???

 

Remainers have been on a spending spree

 

Quote

Kleenex in demand on Amazon Prime Day

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-amazon-com-primeday/speakers-tvs-kleenex-in-demand-on-amazon-prime-day-idUSKBN1K81S4?il=0

 

???

[bristolboy]

1 minute ago, The Renegade said:

???

 

Remainers have been on a spending spree

 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-amazon-com-primeday/speakers-tvs-kleenex-in-demand-on-amazon-prime-day-idUSKBN1K81S4?il=0

 

???

Well, since it's a report on Amazon's world wide sales, that means the whole world is weeping over Brexit. That should tell you something. But it probably won't.

[The Renegade]

Quote

Varadkar says Ireland is stepping up plans for no-deal Brexit

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jul/18/varadkar-ireland-stepping-up-plans-no-deal-brexit

 

A bit late. Planning should have started on 29 March 2017.

 

Plan for the worse case in every scenario, things can then only get better.

[tebee]

24 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

Should I be flattered that he thought so?

Us remainers all look the same to them.....

[stephenterry]

15 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jul/18/varadkar-ireland-stepping-up-plans-no-deal-brexit

 

A bit late. Planning should have started on 29 March 2017.

 

Plan for the worse case in every scenario, things can then only get better.

 

Stepping up plans means that a plan is in place. That could mean anything.

 

But the most interesting point arising from this article is this:-

Coveney told RTÉ’s Morning Ireland on Wednesday that Brexiter amendments to the UK government’s customs and trade bills were “unhelpful”. He said the law banning a border in the Irish Sea could be trumped by the Good Friday agreement, which gives voters the right to self-determination and has the status of an international treaty. Coveney said he did not accept that the amendment made the backstop illegal.

 

 

[whatsupdoc]

2 minutes ago, stephenterry said:

 

Stepping up plans means that a plan is in place. That could mean anything.

 

But the most interesting point arising from this article is this:-

Coveney told RTÉ’s Morning Ireland on Wednesday that Brexiter amendments to the UK government’s customs and trade bills were “unhelpful”. He said the law banning a border in the Irish Sea could be trumped by the Good Friday agreement, which gives voters the right to self-determination and has the status of an international treaty. Coveney said he did not accept that the amendment made the backstop illegal.

 

 

Meanwhile there are clear hints of things to come:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jul/18/eu-assault-on-mays-white-paper-heightens-no-deal-brexit-fears

A no deal scenario becomes more and more likely if no fast agreement can be reached on the withdrawal and the Irish border.

[dick dasterdly]

Just now, whatsupdoc said:

Meanwhile there are clear hints of things to come:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jul/18/eu-assault-on-mays-white-paper-heightens-no-deal-brexit-fears

A no deal scenario becomes more and more likely if no fast agreement can be reached on the withdrawal and the Irish border.

If only the brit. govt. had made it very clear from the start that they were preparing for a 'no deal' scenario.  But instead they preferred to agree with the eu's 'negotiating agenda'.....

[stephenterry]

9 minutes ago, whatsupdoc said:

Meanwhile there are clear hints of things to come:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jul/18/eu-assault-on-mays-white-paper-heightens-no-deal-brexit-fears

A no deal scenario becomes more and more likely if no fast agreement can be reached on the withdrawal and the Irish border.

It's always been an option, since May enacted Article 50, and subsequently drew red lines for Brexit, but at the moment it is more likely to be a political game of brinkmanship. Not that should be of any comfort, quite the reverse, however most politicians have inflated egos of their importance. Johnson and JR-M  and the new boy on the block, Raab, are typical examples.

[Chomper Higgot]

59 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jul/18/varadkar-ireland-stepping-up-plans-no-deal-brexit

 

A bit late. Planning should have started on 29 March 2017.

 

Plan for the worse case in every scenario, things can then only get better.

Brexiteer gives advice on when planning should have started.

 

The real life farce continues.

[stephenterry]

12 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

If only the brit. govt. had made it very clear from the start that they were preparing for a 'no deal' scenario.  But instead they preferred to agree with the eu's 'negotiating agenda'.....

And that has been the real issue. May invoked Article 50 without the government having ANY plans in place.

And even at today, there has been NO government publication on the pros and cons of Brexit, and the financial and economic implications for the UK - and possibly the EU. Or maybe that's still locked up in Downing Street while the negotiations are taking place. 

 

But the uncertainty, just generates conflict and concern, particularly from business who need to know where they stand... 

 

[tomacht8]

Who would ever have thought of that?

 

Currently, UK driving licences are valid in all EU countries, plus Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway and Switzerland.

But unless a specific agreement is reached, UK drivers will need "additional documentation" in Europe after Brexit, the report says.

 

https://www.google.co.th/search?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bbc.com%2Fnews%2Fuk-politics-44881058&oq=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bbc.com%2Fnews%2Fuk-politics-44881058&aqs=chrome..69i58j69i57.-1j0j4&client=ms-android-samsung&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8

Edited July 19, 2018 by tomacht8

[The Renegade]

12 minutes ago, tomacht8 said:

Who would ever have thought of that?

 

Currently, UK driving licences are valid in all EU countries, plus Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway and Switzerland.

But unless a specific agreement is reached, UK drivers will need "additional documentation" in Europe after Brexit, the report says.

 

https://www.google.co.th/search?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bbc.com%2Fnews%2Fuk-politics-44881058&oq=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bbc.com%2Fnews%2Fuk-politics-44881058&aqs=chrome..69i58j69i57.-1j0j4&client=ms-android-samsung&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8

Yes it is tragic, some people might have to get off their @rse and do something.

 

How difficult is it to get an IDP,  if you require one at a massive cost of around £5?

 

What you also fail to mention is that drivers from  all EU countries, plus Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway and Switzerland will also require the same if they wish to drive in the UK.

 

So let's not just make it about '' UK drivers ''

[vogie]

19 minutes ago, tomacht8 said:

Who would ever have thought of that?

 

Currently, UK driving licences are valid in all EU countries, plus Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway and Switzerland.

But unless a specific agreement is reached, UK drivers will need "additional documentation" in Europe after Brexit, the report says.

 

https://www.google.co.th/search?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bbc.com%2Fnews%2Fuk-politics-44881058&oq=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bbc.com%2Fnews%2Fuk-politics-44881058&aqs=chrome..69i58j69i57.-1j0j4&client=ms-android-samsung&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8

You make no mention should the UK achieve an hard brexit, we will still be elligible to enter the Eurovision Song Contest even though other EU states do not vote for us. ?