UK demands Russia explain nerve attack after two more people struck down

[Morch]

Just now, BestB said:

Again i was not there, so i have no idea what it was and have not seen any evidence to show otherwise, besides a few UK officials making noise, yet again no no evidence provided

 

You weren't there, but you assert Russia wasn't involved, and Putin didn't have anything to do with it. You ignore any information not falling in line with your point of view. You somehow expect conclusive and comprehensive evidence to be shared, disregarding that's not how such investigations go. And, of course, belittling UK officials, while parroting their Russian counterparts. Thanks.

[BestB]

1 minute ago, Morch said:

 

You weren't there, but you assert Russia wasn't involved, and Putin didn't have anything to do with it. You ignore any information not falling in line with your point of view. You somehow expect conclusive and comprehensive evidence to be shared, disregarding that's not how such investigations go. And, of course, belittling UK officials, while parroting their Russian counterparts. Thanks.

When did i assert that? I said i have not seen any evidence Russia was involved or Putin is to blame

 

 

[Baerboxer]

10 hours ago, JAG said:

I, like many other Britons, regard the current government as an appalling shambles, riven with various personality claques and seemingly so incompetent that they are unable to manage the simplest task vaguely satisfactorily.

 

That view is only tempered by the awful realisation that the only alternative would probably be as bad if not worse.

 

However, despite setting the standard for cynical venal incompetence, I simply do not believe they would launch a persistent nerve agent attack on their own people to distract attention from their troubles.

 

I agree with your comments.

 

But by the same logic, the seemingly incompetent current excuse for a government are known for talking nonsense, based on nothing more than their own wishful thinking. Therefore, their accusations of Russia, Russia, in the absence of any credible evidence must be treated with some reserve. Especially when it produces some pampering comments for them from Emperor Trump.

 

It may be that the security services have more evidence which they cannot reveal without compromising the sources. But I've yet to hear May play that card. 

 

 

 

[manarak]

1 hour ago, janclaes47 said:

 

But these people are no spies nor Russians, so what has Putin to do with this?

so far, due to the identity of the two victims, it looks like they were collecting discarded items and accidently got contaminated with possible discarded leftovers from the Skipal assassination attempt.

maybe several vectors were planned for the Skripals, such as a package of contaminated cigarettes, which were then discarded after the attempt with the doorknob was successful.

everything is of course speculation and I doubt we will ever know the true story.

[JAG]

17 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

 

I agree with your comments.

 

But by the same logic, the seemingly incompetent current excuse for a government are known for talking nonsense, based on nothing more than their own wishful thinking. Therefore, their accusations of Russia, Russia, in the absence of any credible evidence must be treated with some reserve. Especially when it produces some pampering comments for them from Emperor Trump.

 

It may be that the security services have more evidence which they cannot reveal without compromising the sources. But I've yet to hear May play that card. 

 

 

 

I suspect that there is little hard evidence. They cannot prove who brought the stuff to the UK, or how it was brought in.

They cannot prove who smeared it on the Skripols door handle, or who released it, and how, in Amesbury ( a town on the edge of Salisbury Plain, whose only redeeming feature as I recall is a rather good Chinese take away!)

All of which points to a very competent operation, which would require significant effort and resources to get the nerve agent into the country.

We do know that it is of Russian military origin, and the first victims were almost certainly on a variety of lists in Russia!

 

Given that it is not unreasonable to ask the Russians if they know how it got into the UK. Nor is it unreasonable to take the Russian ( I nearly said Soviet) response, that it is all a British Intelligence fabrication, with a rather large pinch of salt.

 

 

[manarak]

11 minutes ago, JAG said:

All of which points to a very competent operation, which would require significant effort and resources to get the nerve agent into the country.

nope - I'm always surprised when people say some criminals needed "significant effort and resources" or "a high level of organization and planning" when in reality it just takes someone, possibly not more than one or two people, working precisely and carefully.

maybe officials like to say such things to appease worries of the public, it's somehow more reassuring than saying people can carry out such an attack on their own.

Edited July 6, 2018 by manarak

[Morch]

11 hours ago, manarak said:

nope - I'm always surprised when people say some criminals needed "significant effort and resources" or "a high level of organization and planning" when in reality it just takes someone, possibly not more than one or two people, working precisely and carefully.

maybe officials like to say such things to appease worries of the public, it's somehow more reassuring than saying people can carry out such an attack on their own.

 

I don't think this compound can be manufactured by a couple of guys. It involves significant efforts and resources to produce, purchase and move. Never mind application. Keeping all this hidden from scrutiny isn't easy either.

 

There are "lone wolf" attacks. But these do not usually involve such means. In the same way, target profile is usually different then either case suggests.

[Morch]

13 hours ago, BestB said:

When did i assert that? I said i have not seen any evidence Russia was involved or Putin is to blame

 

 

 

Thanks for making the point. Again.

[Scott]

Off-topic, conspiracy post removed.  

 

[BestB]

9 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Thanks for making the point. Again.

Which was ?

[FritsSikkink]

On ‎7‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 9:18 AM, Orac said:

Good job Porton Down is close by, about midway between the two incidents which are only 7 miles apart according to thd OP - at least they can be on the scene quickly.

They might well be the cause of this.

[dick dasterdly]

13 hours ago, manarak said:

so far, due to the identity of the two victims, it looks like they were collecting discarded items and accidently got contaminated with possible discarded leftovers from the Skipal assassination attempt.

maybe several vectors were planned for the Skripals, such as a package of contaminated cigarettes, which were then discarded after the attempt with the doorknob was successful.

everything is of course speculation and I doubt we will ever know the true story.

An interesting theory, but it seems more than a little incompetent if the russians were genuinely responsible?

 

"which were then discarded after the attempt with the doorknob was successful"

 

The attempt wasn't successful as the target survived....

 

Perhaps the russians paid someone a few thousand pounds to assassinate Skripal (rather than using their own professional agents.....) - which is why:-

 

1) the attempt failed

2) other contaminated (but not contaminated enough.....) items were then thrown away/discarded.....

 

Ridiculous is too mild a word for this fiasco!  And I'm genuinely suprised that a few are determined to believe the brit. govt., despite the obvious questions.

[Chomper Higgot]

I’m not at all sure what gave rise to these latest poisoning or who is behind it.

 

There again nobody in this thread is.

 

However, even the slightest suggestion that Russia may be involved and may be undertaking a disinformation campaign around the poisoning’s is sufficient for me to refrain from posting anything supportive of Russia.

 

I don’t have to accuse Russia, I certainly do not have to support Russia or do their bidding.

[Morch]

15 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

An interesting theory, but it seems more than a little incompetent if the russians were genuinely responsible?

 

"which were then discarded after the attempt with the doorknob was successful"

 

The attempt wasn't successful as the target survived....

 

Perhaps the russians paid someone a few thousand pounds to assassinate Skripal (rather than using their own professional agents.....) - which is why:-

 

1) the attempt failed

2) other contaminated (but not contaminated enough.....) items were then thrown away/discarded.....

 

Ridiculous is too mild a word for this fiasco!  And I'm genuinely suprised that a few are determined to believe the brit. govt., despite the obvious questions.

 

Or perhaps, you put too much stock in Russian intelligence professionalism. Or, perhaps, carrying out such operations isn't nearly as straightforward as some posters seem to imagine.

 

I would suggest that successful covert operations rarely come to the public's notice. That's why they are called covert. When things go wrong....that's a whole different story.

 

Ridiculous would be an apt description of the ongoing attempt by some posters to disassociate Russia from these attacks, without even a halfway credible alternative offered. But by all means, do go on about "obvious questions", while engaging in denials regarding obvious culprits.

[dick dasterdly]

Just now, Chomper Higgot said:

I’m not at all sure what gave rise to these latest poisoning or who is behind it.

 

There again nobody in this thread is.

 

However, even the slightest suggestion that Russia may be involved and may be undertaking a disinformation campaign around the poisoning’s is sufficient for me to refrain from posting anything supportive of Russia.

 

I don’t have to accuse Russia, I certainly do not have to support Russia or do their bidding.

I don't think anyone is supporting russia - we're just pointing out the obvious re. the flaws in the brit. govt. blaming russia without any proof.

 

This latest case has just made the flaws even more obvious.

[Morch]

7 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

I don't think anyone is supporting russia - we're just pointing out the obvious re. the flaws in the brit. govt. blaming russia without any proof.

 

This latest case has just made the flaws even more obvious.

 

"I don't think anyone is supporting Russia"

 

Pull the other one.

This may apply to some posters, but as a general assertion it simply doesn't float.

Edited July 7, 2018 by Morch

[dick dasterdly]

2 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Or perhaps, you put too much stock in Russian intelligence professionalism. Or, perhaps, carrying out such operations isn't nearly as straightforward as some posters seem to imagine.

 

I would suggest that successful covert operations rarely come to the public's notice. That's why they are called covert. When things go wrong....that's a whole different story.

 

Ridiculous would be an apt description of the ongoing attempt by some posters to disassociate Russia from these attacks, without even a halfway credible alternative offered. But by all means, do go on about "obvious questions", while engaging in denials regarding obvious culprits.

The russians have proven themselves extremely capable when it comes to killing 'dissidents' in foreign countries....

 

Apparently they only used non-fatal doses this time, to scare others ?.

 

You prefer to rely on the 'it was russia that dun it' propaganda, and not ask any of the obvious questions.

[Chomper Higgot]

14 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

I don't think anyone is supporting russia - we're just pointing out the obvious re. the flaws in the brit. govt. blaming russia without any proof.

 

This latest case has just made the flaws even more obvious.

You are very likely playing your part in a misinformation campaign.

 

You might also consider that this latest case is a deliberate attempt to muddy the waters.

 

cui bono?

Edited July 7, 2018 by Chomper Higgot

[FritsSikkink]

26 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

I’m not at all sure what gave rise to these latest poisoning or who is behind it.

 

There again nobody in this thread is.

 

However, even the slightest suggestion that Russia may be involved and may be undertaking a disinformation campaign around the poisoning’s is sufficient for me to refrain from posting anything supportive of Russia.

 

I don’t have to accuse Russia, I certainly do not have to support Russia or do their bidding.

The UK government is well know for it's disinformation, so better stop posting about them too.

[Morch]

11 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

The russians have proven themselves extremely capable when it comes to killing 'dissidents' in foreign countries....

 

Apparently they only used non-fatal doses this time, to scare others ?.

 

You prefer to rely on the 'it was russia that dun it' propaganda, and not ask any of the obvious questions.

 

Well, I don't know that their operations resulting in major headlines points to "proven themselves extremely capable". Covert operations are usually considered successful when they are carried out without complications and without much publicity. That is, unless one of the goals is to generate such publicity.  For some obscure reason you assume they can never make mistakes, not even when using new, "exotic" means.

 

Propaganda would be an accurate label for the wholesale denial regarding Russian involvement, while relying on rather convulsed half-cooked "alternative" explanations. But do go on about "obvious questions"....

[dick dasterdly]

3 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

You are very likely playing your part in a misinformation campaign.

 

You might also consider that this latest case is a deliberate attempt to muddy the waters.

 

cui bono?

Oh... please.... are you serious??

 

Yes, right - I'm playing a part in a misinformation campaign ?.  You say this seriously without any realisation that you are likely supporting a misinformation campaign???

 

The evidence is lacking in the first instance (Skripal - if they wanted to kill him they would likely have killed him with such a toxic poison) - and becomes even more unlikely in the latest case!

 

And yet a few posters are determined to ignore the obvious questions, preferring to rely on the brit. govt. and media proclamations......

[Morch]

13 minutes ago, FritsSikkink said:

The UK government is well know for it's disinformation, so better stop posting about them too.

 

More generalized deflections.

[dick dasterdly]

Just now, Morch said:

 

Well, I don't know that their operations resulting in major headlines points to "proven themselves extremely capable". Covert operations are usually considered successful when they are carried out without complications and without much publicity. That is, unless one of the goals is to generate such publicity.  For some obscure reason you assume they can never make mistakes, not even when using new, "exotic" means.

 

Propaganda would be an accurate label for the wholesale denial regarding Russian involvement, while relying on rather convulsed half-cooked "alternative" explanations. But do go on about "obvious questions"....

So the russians wanted to harm (not kill) this latest couple?

 

It makes sense to me, as they clearly only wanted to harm (not kill) their dissident.....

[Morch]

Just now, dick dasterdly said:

Oh... please.... are you serious??

 

Yes, right - I'm playing a part in a misinformation campaign ?.  You say this seriously without any realisation that you are likely supporting a misinformation campaign???

 

The evidence is lacking in the first instance (Skripal - if they wanted to kill him they would likely have killed him with such a toxic poison) - and becomes even more unlikely in the latest case!

 

And yet a few posters are determined to ignore the obvious questions, preferring to rely on the brit. govt. and media proclamations......

 

The assumption regarding "if they wanted to kill him" etc... is incorrect and misleading. But do go on about "propaganda".

 

And while you keep on copy/pasting "ignore the obvious questions", you basically do the very same with anything that doesn't fit your point of view.

[Morch]

3 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

So the russians wanted to harm (not kill) this latest couple?

 

It makes sense to me, as they clearly only wanted to harm (not kill) their dissident.....

 

Posted previously, I don't know how the recent case relates to the first. Made no concrete assertions on that. Guess we'll have to wait and see what details are made available.

 

Your second assertion is nowhere as "clear" as you claim.

 

 

Edited July 7, 2018 by Morch

[dick dasterdly]

1 minute ago, Morch said:

 

Well, I don't know that their operations resulting in major headlines points to "proven themselves extremely capable". Covert operations are usually considered successful when they are carried out without complications and without much publicity. That is, unless one of the goals is to generate such publicity.  For some obscure reason you assume they can never make mistakes, not even when using new, "exotic" means.

 

Propaganda would be an accurate label for the wholesale denial regarding Russian involvement, while relying on rather convulsed half-cooked "alternative" explanations. But do go on about "obvious questions"....

"Covert operations are usually considered successful when they are carried out without complications and without much publicity."

 

In which case the russians failed on both points....

 

They failed to assassinate their dissident (curious on it's own), and 'their' failure resulted in maximum publicity....

 

The whole thing is very 'odd', and I have no idea why a few are determined not to ask any of the obvious questions - and prefer to rely on the 'russians did it' propaganda spouted by the uk govt. and media.  Despite the obvious questions....

[Morch]

2 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

"Covert operations are usually considered successful when they are carried out without complications and without much publicity."

 

In which case the russians failed on both points....

 

They failed to assassinate their dissident (curious on it's own), and 'their' failure resulted in maximum publicity....

 

The whole thing is very 'odd', and I have no idea why a few are determined not to ask any of the obvious questions - and prefer to rely on the 'russians did it' propaganda spouted by the uk govt. and media.  Despite the obvious questions....

 

Not clear what your point is, or that you actually have one. It is not "curious" that the Russian's failed. This things happen. It is only "curious" if one holds that the Russian intelligence services do not make mistakes or that things never go wrong.

 

Other than you saying that the whole thing is "very odd", nothing of substance is actually offered as to how it is "very odd". The default copy/pasted phrase about "propaganda" and "obvious questions" is wearing thin.

 

 

[Rimmer]

A troll /baiting post has been removed, we are discussing:

UK demands Russia explain nerve attack after two more people struck down

 

Not other forum members

[sammieuk1]

Novichok is moving in very mysterious ways in Wiltshire and its not the lay lines.

[dick dasterdly]

49 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Posted previously, I don't know how the recent case relates to the first. Made no concrete assertions on that. Guess we'll have to wait and see what details are made available.

 

Your second assertion is nowhere as "clear" as you claim.

 

 

"Posted previously, I don't know how the recent case relates to the first."

 

Really??