ITIN number renewal for Thai spouse

[khaepmu]

I just got a letter from the IRS claiming that my Thai wife's ITIN number needs to be renewed. She needs  to have this number in order for me to claim her as a tax deduction when I file my US tax returns with the IRS. She needs to fill out a form W-7 and proof of her identity.  It is not clear to me if a copy of her ID card is enough or not. And if it is, I am wondering if it has to be certified by the US Embassy which would mean a trip to Bangkok and a handful of cash for their services. I certainly hope not. Her Thai passport has expired. I have been using her as a deduction for the past 18 years.  As far as I am concerned, this another example of needless government intrusion into its citizens affairs. Same as the FBAR nonsense. 

[GinBoy2]

You will need to go to the embassy with a valid passport.They will need to certify her passport, it'll be stamped with 'for ITIN purposes only'

On a side note, if and when you move back to the US and your wife is eligible for a SSN, you need to call the IRS.

They will need/want to merge her ITIN with SSN. I'd like to say that was a painless procedure, but I spent more time on the 1-800-Call-1040 'helpline' than I care to remember

Edited July 22, 2018 by GinBoy2

[lopburi3]

Had the same issue last year and wife got a new passport for that very reason (one document accepted) and mailed with form and was returned and ITIN extended.  But not without a warning letter as must have answered something wrong - did not have copy to check.  At any rate had to EMS second letter to get to them before expiration window after slow mailing to me.  Very onerous exercises, for no apparent reason, for those abiding by laws.  Be very careful that all questions are answered per instructions.

 

[ubonjoe]

Going through the instructions for the W-7 it appears her Thai ID card would be accepted.

"Passports and national identification cards. These documents will be considered current only if their expiration date hasn’t passed prior to the date the Form W-7 is submitted."

And this would indicate it could be certified by an Amphoe.

"A certified document is one that the original issuing agency provides and certifies as an exact copy of the original document and contains an official stamped seal from the agency."

Source: https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/iw7.pdf

[GinBoy2]

5 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

Going through the instructions for the W-7 it appears her Thai ID card would be accepted.

"Passports and national identification cards. These documents will be considered current only if their expiration date hasn’t passed prior to the date the Form W-7 is submitted."

And this would indicate it could be certified by an Amphoe.

"A certified document is one that the original issuing agency provides and certifies as an exact copy of the original document and contains an official stamped seal from the agency."

Source: https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/iw7.pdf

Go to say that was'nt my experience. Tried the Thai ID card and it was rejected, after several months, then needed to do the US embassy certification. 

I think Austin may make up the rules as they go along, and what are you gonna do? They have the power, you have none.

 

I filed taxes in January, the responded in June that they wouldn’t accept it, did the embassy, then by the time they actually issued an ITIN we were on a plane with her immigrant visa ready to issue an SSN. 

 

Your tax $$ at work!

Edited July 22, 2018 by GinBoy2

[ubonjoe]

4 minutes ago, GinBoy2 said:

Tried the Thai ID card and it was rejected, after several months, then needed to do the US embassy certification. 

Was the copy of it certified?

[GinBoy2]

1 minute ago, ubonjoe said:

Was the copy of it certified?

It was certified by the Amphur...maybe if we’d done it as the US embassy it would have been different

[lopburi3]

16 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

Going through the instructions for the W-7 it appears her Thai ID card would be accepted.

"Passports and national identification cards. These documents will be considered current only if their expiration date hasn’t passed prior to the date the Form W-7 is submitted."

And this would indicate it could be certified by an Amphoe.

"A certified document is one that the original issuing agency provides and certifies as an exact copy of the original document and contains an official stamped seal from the agency."

Source: https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/iw7.pdf

Not in my reading as passport is clearly stated as the only stand alone document allowed.  But then I do not claim to be able to read it - seems to be written with even more doublespeak than the tax code.

Quote

Passport (the only stand-alone document*)

Quote

* Applicants claimed as dependents who need to prove U.S. residency must provide additional documentation if the passport doesn’t have a date of entry into the United States. See Proof of U.S. residency for applicants who are dependents, below.

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

I ran into this subject just yesterday by chance... The IRS homepage for ITIN has info at the top about just what ranges of ITIN numbers have expired lately and those that are due to expire at the end of 2018. That seems to include MANY pre-2013 issued ITINs!

 

https://www.irs.gov/individuals/individual-taxpayer-identification-number

 

Quote

 

Important Reminders

• Your ITIN may expire before you file a tax return in 2019. All ITINs not used on a federal tax return at least once in the last three years will expire on December 31, 2018. Additionally, all ITINs issued before 2013 with middle digits of 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 81, or 82 (Example: (9XX-73-XXXX) will also expire at the end of the year.
• If you need to file a tax return in 2019, IRS recommends you submit a Form W-7, Application for IRS Individual Taxpayer Identification Number, or Form W-7(SP), Solicitud de Número del Identificación Personal del Contribuyente del Servicio de Impuestos Internos, now to renew your ITIN. As a reminder, ITINs with middle digits 70, 71, 72, 78, 79 or 80 that expired in 2016 & 2017 can also be renewed.
• See the ITIN Fact Sheet for more information
• Along with your Form W-7, you will need to: 
  • attach your original identification documents or certified copies by the issuing agency and any other required attachments. 
  • select the reason for needing the ITIN as outlined in the Form W-7 and W-7(SP) instructions. 
    
    Note: A tax return is not required with a renewal application.

• •  

Edited July 22, 2018 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

They also have an ITIN renewals Fact Sheet that has additional details, including the encouragement that those with expired or soon to expire ITINs should file their renewals soon, because renewal apps don't have to wait for or be filed with actual tax returns.

 

https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p5259.pdf

 

 

Quote

 

The IRS has made changes to the Individual Taxpayer Identification Number (ITIN) program

as a result of the Protecting Americans from Tax Hikes (PATH) Act.

 

The PATH Act required that certain ITINs expire.

 

 

.

 

 

[ubonjoe]

1 hour ago, lopburi3 said:

Not in my reading as passport is clearly stated as the only stand alone document allowed.  But then I do not claim to be able to read it - seems to be written with even more doublespeak than the tax code

I was only looking at the identification requirements. I don't think his wife needs to proves she has residency in the US.

 

[lopburi3]

14 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

I was only looking at the identification requirements. I don't think his wife needs to proves she has residency in the US.

 

No she does not - but with entry stamp it could be used for that if application was for some other reason.  But my reading is more than one document is required unless using a passport - but as said it appears to be written by a 3rd grader and in one paragraph would appear everything only applies to military dependents using passport.  Our tax money at work.  ?

[khaepmu]

Thanks for all the replies but this has nothing to do with my wife  moving to the USA. I only want a new ITIN number for my wife so I can use her as a deduction when I file my tax returns with the IRS. And her present number will expire at the end of this year. I always file a joint return with my Thai wife ( I am retired and live in Thailand)and this saves me a little money, not much, because I am in a low tax bracket. But I have dividend and capital gain investments in the USA and must file. My wife no longer has a Thai passport--it expired years ago. So I have to fill out a W-7 (or she has to) and then send it to the USA with a copy of her Thai ID card which has her name and my last name on it. If it is certified in Thailand in the Thai language  will the  government people in the USA be able to read and Thai certification I wondering. I want to avoid having to take a marathon trip to the embassy with my Thai wife to get something stamped to say it is genuine. I have written  a brief email to the US Embassy  in Bangkok explaining my situation and maybe a 50/50 chance of a reply. 

[lopburi3]

As I said - probably the easy path is what we did last year - obtain a new passport for this purpose and send that with the form.  They will send back and obtaining Thai passport is easy and only about 1k fee.  No extra trips to obtain copy certifications and passport is stand alone proof.

[ubonjoe]

1 hour ago, khaepmu said:

So I have to fill out a W-7 (or she has to) and then send it to the USA with a copy of her Thai ID card which has her name and my last name on it. If it is certified in Thailand in the Thai language  will the  government people in the USA be able to read and Thai certification I wondering. I want to avoid having to take.....

I suggest you have the certification translated to English. That would take away any doubts about it.

[lopburi3]

The thing with ID cards, even if accepted without other documents which seems questionable in my reading of instructions; for elderly they are not renewed here so might appear expired and be rejected for that reason - assuming older person.  

[tweedledee2]

I applied for an ITIN for my wife last year. I had the required documents, birth certificate, marriage certificate and Thai ID translated and certified by an attorney in Surin and submitted them with the application. After receiving the ITIN, I refiled my returns for the 2014- 2016 tax years. 

[lopburi3]

14 minutes ago, tweedledee2 said:

I applied for an ITIN for my wife last year. I had the required documents, birth certificate, marriage certificate and Thai ID translated and certified by an attorney in Surin and submitted them with the application. After receiving the ITIN, I refiled my returns for the 2014- 2016 tax years. 

That is a different procedure - this is about a renewal requirement for those who already have an ITIN number.

[tweedledee2]

1 hour ago, lopburi3 said:

That is a different procedure - this is about a renewal requirement for those who already have an ITIN number.

The submitted forms may be different but the proof of identity documents that they will accept is the same. The documents you submit, if not in English are required to be translated and certified. That's what I did and will do the same way when renewing unless the requirements are changed.

[khaepmu]

I sent an email to the US Embassy in Bangkok telling them that I needed a new ITIN number for my Thai wife as her present number will soon expire and asked them what documents they would accept for proof of my wife's identity and what the IRS would accept. They told me to bring my wife's passport along with the letter that the IRS sent to me telling me that my wife's ITIN number will expire after 2018. They said they would certify the passport (or a copy I assume) and said that I could bring the passport to the embassy unaccompanied by my wife. Seems pretty simple. Just need a new passport as my wife's present passport expired ten years ago. And her birthday on her expired passport is different from her birthday on her latest Thai ID card. 

[lopburi3]

1 hour ago, khaepmu said:

And her birthday on her expired passport is different from her birthday on her latest Thai ID card. 

That may be more of an issue - DOB should not be different; ever.   You are talking about a Thai passport and ID card?  Depending on which is wrong you probably need to have birth record available or statements from family/village officials if no records available before making application.  Perhaps a lawyer.

[khaepmu]

About 17 years ago a local Thai government official came to my wife's house and said the date of her birthday on her Thai ID card and birth certificate and house registration ( I think these were the documents) had been mistakenly recorded. I went through the roof wondering how such incompetency could exist. She already had a passport  and we had been abroad a few times. She then had to go  through the tedious process of having the mistaken date of birth  corrected and then she had to get a new ID card with the correct date. I am hoping when she applies for a new passport she will not need the expired one (it expired about 14 years ago). I do not even think she still has it. She thought the Thai officials were hoping we would offer him some money so she wouldn't  have to go though all of the paper work to change the date. As far as I know, all she will need for the new passport is her Thai ID and house registration and possibly a marriage certificate because she changed her last name to mine after the marriage. And she has gone through the process of correcting the wrong date of birth. She is doing the passport application in Pattaya. Not sure if I have to go with her. I don't see why I would. 

[lopburi3]

1 hour ago, khaepmu said:

Not sure if I have to go with her. I don't see why I would. 

Don't believe that will be required.  And probably no issues as ID has been updated so there should be a record of that if they check passport records and DOB does not agree.  New passport will require bio data (fingerprints taken) so a bit more involved than before.  Here in Bangkok only the applicant can enter the processing area so if you go with expect you will have to wait outside.