Cave group to be ordained into monkhood for nine days

[cmsally]

22 minutes ago, Catoni said:

    Look around.... there are many branches of Buddhism in the world today.   Even in Thailand there are various smaller "sub-set" "schools" of Buddhism.  Two of the most well known being the Maha Nikaya and the Dhammayuttika Nikaya. There are also a few various "Forest" varieties of Buddhism connected in some cases, but not all, with those two or others.   In many areas, you find local ancient animism spiritualism and/or Hinduism is mixed in with Buddhism....  same to some extent in Myanmar and Laos and Cambodia.    You see that clearly in the blessings at the cave...  

Quote

Dhammayutika, literally, those who are “yoked to the teachings”

Dhammayutika evolved/was invented as a reaction to the forest sect; to bring seat of power in Buddhism back to urban areas.

 

Quote

After the founding of the Dhammayuttika Nikāya by the then-monk Prince Mongkut in 1833, decades later all recognized monks not ordained in the Dhammayuttika order were considered to be part of the 'maha nikāya', the 'great collection' of those outside the new Dhammayuttika fraternity.

 I would still stand by my assertion that any Buddhist sect/branch that is not state endorsed, will not be going too far. Any attempt for Buddhism to branch out on an intellectual level or regarding any aspect of adaption to society outside the state model will simply not be happening.

[peterb17]

1 hour ago, cmsally said:

The only part of Buddhism that has impressed me is Suan Mokh when the Buddhadasa was there (I believe it has become much more commercialised since his death). Unfortunately that is not the path that Thai Buddhism seems to follow.

Even friends of mine from other Western religions (only people visiting briefly to Thailand), have commented how wealthy the religion seems to be and how little it seems to contribute to society. They ask me why the funds are not used to build hospitals and good schools.

 

Buddhism is actually a philosophy on life and existence. Thai Buddhism is more about subservience, ritual, images and economic factors. So in that sense it probably runs through everything.

I am not immune to the corruption in Thai Buddhism - all I am saying is - like it or not - Buddhism is an integral part of the country- we criticise from a Western point of view ( corruption in the Catholic Church - never!) 

My view - we live here - we cannot influence this country in any way - so don’t be judgemental.

 

My Thai friends go to the temple on a regular basis - in respect to my partner I have a stunningly beautiful ancient Sukothai period Buddha image at home .

( I can’t stand all those tourist paintings and images- they should not be used as decoration) 

When you choose to move to a new country - you have no right to constantly criticise its citizens- you are a guest here - nothing more . 

 

[Media1]

They can further there careers to learn about criminality with the monks lol

[DM07]

3 hours ago, peterb17 said:

Oh Dear

 

So many negative and cynical  comments today- and so many commenting from a Western perspective.

 

Sometimes I really do wonder if anyone on ThaiVisa actually lives in Thailand , or if they make any attempt to understand the culture. 

Like it or not the great religions have shaped the world we live in , who can not stand in awe in one of the great medieval cathedrals in Europe or be moved in my favourite temple Wat Pho.

Many Thai young men will become a novice, and if you live here - you will probably have been to a ceremony - it’s a joyous occasion. 

Buddhism is a thread of beliefs that runs through everything.

 

The kids are going to become novices for a few days - and if it helps them to stay somewhere quiet and out of the limelight for a while - excellent . 

Oh, please spare me!

Yeah, I live in Thailand and yeah, I had a look at their "religion" and it is the same crap than anywhere else in the world!

I don't have to like everything Thais do, just because I live here!

It's not "entering Thailand and hang up your brain in the entry hall"!

 

[Sheryl]

Religious beliefs and practices in that corner of Thailand are pretty syncretic. I would not worry re the Christian boy (there may actually be more than 1 Christian in the group, not sure).

 

Entering the monkhood for a brief period of time in this culture can serve a very helpful psychological function especially for people bearing a burden of guilt as it is believed to accrue spiritual merit. 

 

And it will also keep them away from the media for a while allowing more time for things to die down.

 

It is, culturally, a very normal thing to do under the circumstances. It would be even if the rescue had not cost a life but all the more so since it did. They can dedicate the merit they gain to Saman and to their parents and rescuers and thereby partly come out of the burdens of guilt and excess gratitude.

[Artisi]

1 hour ago, sfokevin said:

“A ritual of worship of supernatural beings in the cave and the resident Phra That Doi Wao spirit would begin at 9am tomorrow”

 

What sort of Bhuddism is this ?... 

Thai  - similar to Lourdes by the sound of it. 

Edited July 23, 2018 by Artisi

[holy cow cm]

5 hours ago, kannot said:

Thai culture................but dont complain or  youll just have to go back "home"

I go to the temple for mine my and family birthdays and events, and even will go next weekend. Is this considered ok and I get the get out from having to go back home card?

[Tongjaw]

It’s been reported that the young Christian boy Abdu Sam-on will not be entering the Buddhist monkhood with his fellow team mates 

 

https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/se-asia/thai-boys-rescued-from-cave-to-be-ordained-in-buddhist-ceremony

 

 

[HHTel]

It's already been announced that the Christian boy, Abdul Sam-On will not be attending.

Trust TV to get it wrong!

[HHTel]

Also in the Bangkok Post but of course TV doesn't allow quotes from there.

[Eligius]

3 minutes ago, HHTel said:

It's already been announced that the Christian boy, Abdul Sam-On will not be attending.

Trust TV to get it wrong!

Yes, it is very annoying when misleading information is put out - as seemingly happened very often in the Cave incident. One's whole take and attitude on that incident can be modified by what is later revealed. But then, are even those later 'revelations' or 'rectifications' true? One cannot readily believe anything that comes from official Thai sources or media ...

 

 

Edited July 23, 2018 by Eligius

[Sheryl]

1 hour ago, sfokevin said:

“A ritual of worship of supernatural beings in the cave and the resident Phra That Doi Wao spirit would begin at 9am tomorrow”

 

What sort of Bhuddism is this ?... 

It's not, it is animism.

 

Buddhist and animist beliefs and practices are widely intermixed in Thailand.

 

And in that particular corner of Thailand, Chrisitian, Buddhist and animist practices and beliefs frequently comingle/coexist.

 

 

[HHTel]

1 minute ago, Eligius said:

One cannot readily believe anything that comes from official Thai sources or media ...

How very true and been proven so many times.  Very often they don't even succumb to the truth when known. 

[Artisi]

1 hour ago, Derek B said:

Agreed ------- a lesson that more than a few farang should contemplate taking.

 

And many more have taken. 

[Eligius]

6 minutes ago, HHTel said:

How very true and been proven so many times.  Very often they don't even succumb to the truth when known. 

There are so many contradictions emerging in this cave story that I doubt that now - when it is the 'property' of the military junta, as it surely will be - that we will ever know the real truth.

 

First we were told (again and again) that virtually NONE of the boys could swim. Now we are told that they ALL can swim - indeed, that the Assistant Coach would on occasion take them swimming.

 

First we were told that the noble Assistant Coach gave up all his food to the other boys in the cave, to sustain their lives. Now we are told that in fact he and the others did not take any food with them into the cave.

 

First we were told that the Assistant Coach taught the boys meditation inside the cave and, indeed, had done so on previous occasions. Now we don't really hear anything about this - in fact, we are now told that they all need to be 'taught' meditation inside a temple ...

 

and on it goes.

 

What is the truth? I for one am no longer at all sure. But I am beginning to get the distinct feeling that legends and myths are being spun  ...

 

 

Edited July 23, 2018 by Eligius

[ESCAPIS]

From one captivity to another?

[bluesofa]

15 minutes ago, Artisi said:

1 hour ago, sfokevin said:

“A ritual of worship of supernatural beings in the cave and the resident Phra That Doi Wao spirit would begin at 9am tomorrow”

 

What sort of Bhuddism is this ?... 

Thai  - similar to Lourdes by the sound of it. 

Hmm, are you sure you're not confusing it with Chinese water torture?

 

[Artisi]

12 minutes ago, HHTel said:

It's already been announced that the Christian boy, Abdul Sam-On will not be attending.

Trust TV to get it wrong!

Seems even the headline is incorrect, these kids can't be ordained as monks - too young. 

[Artisi]

5 minutes ago, Eligius said:

There are so many contradictions emerging in this cave story that I doubt that now - when it is the 'property' of the military junta, as it surely will be - that we will ever know the real truth.

 

First we were told (again and again) that virtually NONE of the boys could swim. Now we are told that they ALL can swim - indeed, that the Assistant Coach would on occasion take them swimming.

 

First we were told that the noble Assistant Coach gave up all his food to the other boys in the cave, to sustain their lives. Now we are told that in fact he and the others did not take any food with them into the cave.

 

First we were told that the Assistant Coach taught the boys meditation inside the cave and, indeed, had done so on previous occasions. Now we don't really hear anything about this - in fact, we are now told that they all need to be 'taught' meditation inside a temple ...

 

and on it goes.

 

What is the truth? I for one am no longer at all sure. But I am beginning to get the distinct feeling that legends and myths are being spun  ...

 

 

Spun for a good cause of course, it's call - The Hub of Baht. 

[Eligius]

5 minutes ago, Artisi said:

Seems even the headline is incorrect, these kids can't be ordained as monks - too young. 

Yes, it seems that normally one needs to be twenty years old before being allowed to ordain as a Buddhist monk in Theravada Buddhism. But perhaps these boys are only becoming a kind of 'semi-monk' or novice - so perhaps different age rules apply. I am not sure on this point.

[bluesofa]

5 minutes ago, Eligius said:

There are so many contradictions emerging in this cave story that I doubt that now - when it is the 'property' of the military junta, as it surely will be - that we will ever know the real truth.

 

First we were told (again and again) that virtually NONE of the boys could swim. Now we are told that they ALL can swim - indeed, that the Assistant Coach would on occasion take them swimming.

 

First we were told that the noble Assistant Coach gave up all his food to the other boys in the cave, to sustain their lives. Now we are told that in fact he and the others did not take any food with them into the cave.

 

First we were told that the Assistant Coach taught the boys meditation inside the cave and, indeed, had done so on previous occasions. Now we don't really hear anything about this - in fact, we are now told that they all need to be 'taught' meditation inside a temple ...

 

and on it goes.

 

What is the truth? I for one am no longer at all sure. But I am beginning to get the distinct feeling that legends and myths are being spun  ...

 

 

The truth is whatever you want it to be - same as religion.

 

To be taught meditation in a temple - as a novice does that require a 'learning fee' to do it correctly?

If you learn it for nothing in a cave it won't be half as good.

 

[HHTel]

8 hours ago, webfact said:

They would undergo another physical and mental health check-up today to prepare the boys for being ordained as novices and their coach as a monk for nine days, he said. 

It doesn't say they are being ordained as monks,  "ordained into the monkhood".  Also stated that they will be ordained as novices, a common activity often taken by a younger member of a family when someone dies.

 

 

[sfokevin]

19 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

It's not, it is animism.

 

Buddhist and animist beliefs and practices are widely intermixed in Thailand.

 

And in that particular corner of Thailand, Chrisitian, Buddhist and animist practices and beliefs frequently comingle/coexist.

 

 

Hopefully in that nine days at least one monk speak of being mindful and the impermanence on water levels during the rainy season... 

[Media1]

13 minutes ago, Artisi said:

Spun for a good cause of course, it's call - The Hub of Baht. 

These people talk crap always many versions all crap..l never believe one word

[Somtamnication]

Good idea! Threaten the media from interfering into their lives, but it is ok for the govt. to send them to some temple for 9 days. Pathetic!

[Media1]

Just now, Somtamnication said:

Good idea! Threaten the media from interfering into their lives, but it is ok for the govt. to send them to some temple for 9 days. Pathetic!

The government are army disciples 

This is not a elected government. I do not class them as a government

[jerry921]

1 hour ago, Tongjaw said:

colineil, I’ve followed your posts on TV and agreed with probably all of them and had many a laugh too. I thought at first you had gotten out of the wrong side of bed this morning but alas you are serious. 

I have known 2 catholics enter the Buddhist temple. One entered to pay respect to his mother in law who survived cancer and the other was after his wife of 20 years past away. They only did a couple of weeks but said it was very therapeutic mentally for them. 

You cannot state for fact that these boys, Buddhist and Christian are being forced. Do you know for a fact that the Christian boy is a practising Christian or are you guessing? Do you know for fact that a Christian would not volunteer to be a Buddhist monk for 9 days, even if it was only to pay respect for the Buddhist ex Thai seal and many others who put themselves at risk to save his life? Thai boys of all ages enter the monkhood all the time, are they all being forced? If you believe these boys  are being forced then that’s your opinion. If you are saying it as a fact then I would say you are living in a dream world. I have a lot of respect for your posts and comments on TV but I most certainly do not agree with your comments on this subject. 

Many people who are not Christians have, I suspect, at least heard of the "Ten Commandments". Like in the movie (if nothing else). I would add to the discussion this bit of information: It is the first of the ten commandments to worship no other gods. As a Christian, observing rites like head-shaving and wearing robes would leave me extremely queasy. I would not voluntarily do it. Meditation is fine, but "paying respect" to spirits or a statue would be out of the question. I'll take off shoes and wear long pants if going into a temple, but I will not bow to the statue.

 

Throughout the ages, many many Christians have given their lives rather than take the easy way out. Sure there are those who'll rationalize and waffle their way through, but it's a very serious matter. The issue of animist spirit worship is a much bigger deal than donning robes and cooperating with Buddhist ceremonies. The Christian God is a jealous God, and doesn't tolerate buffet believers.

 

Second point: just because the boy was under the care of a Christian charitable institution, doesn't mean that the boy is himself an avowed Christian. It takes a personal decision, and most charities will encourage but not force their charges to make it. They'll give them plenty of chances and put peer pressure on them, just like most religious parents would (for any religion), but there's a step that depends on the boy that can't be forced on him or chosen for him.

 

Third point: The issue of force. The boy doesn't have parents in Thailand, so the issue of his parents losing face if he doesn't cooperate is moot. The boy is under the care of the Christian charity, and they, as stand-in parents, are quite within their rights to put their foot down and refuse to allow their charge to be forced into this. Having the organization refuse on the boy's behalf takes a huge religious burden off his shoulders and saves him from having to make a very difficult choice.

 

Fourth: I agree with the poster that pointed out that this refusal is likely to have repercussions. In particular, I suspect it will affect his bid for Thai citizenship. He's obviously not being culturally Thai enough to suit the authorities if he's not cooperating with this monkhood business.

 

Fifth: Adul will not suffer for this in the long term, in spite of negative repercussions from Thai authorities. He'll be taken care of. The Christian organization that has been taking care of him will benefit from the publicity, and that's a bit unsavory, but they were taking care of him before he got himself stuck so I think they deserve some credit. They will continue to take care of him, as he's now laid them a golden egg. They can be faulted for not having him on a close enough leash, like the other boy's parents, but that's a different discussion. Probably there are donors lining up, its unfortunately the way these organizations work. They use one photogenic child to raise money for the ugly ones. He's done a lot for all the stateless and hill tribes. If he wants it, I'm certain there are a number of churches in the US that would sponsor him to come to the US and live, study and work.

 

(while I wrote this there have been 15 new replies, so I should shut up and hit submit)

[jenny2017]

3 hours ago, cmsally said:

The only part of Buddhism that has impressed me is Suan Mokh when the Buddhadasa was there (I believe it has become much more commercialised since his death). Unfortunately that is not the path that Thai Buddhism seems to follow.

Even friends of mine from other Western religions (only people visiting briefly to Thailand), have commented how wealthy the religion seems to be and how little it seems to contribute to society. They ask me why the funds are not used to build hospitals and good schools.

 

Buddhism is actually a philosophy on life and existence. Thai Buddhism is more about subservience, ritual, images and economic factors. So in that sense it probably runs through everything.

 They ask me why the funds are not used to build hospitals and good schools.

   

   A monk donated more than 50 million baht to the local hospital. But that was more something like his "last will." No idea where all the money came from but who cares?

 

The kids are neither superstars nor do all of them have the Thai citizenship. Time to leave them alone, methinks. 

Edited July 23, 2018 by jenny2017

[Tony Hanscomb]

7 hours ago, bluesofa said:

How come all thirteen are becoming monks.

I thought one of them was Christian, or is he ambidextrous?

 

Becoming a monk has no relevance to Buddhism you can be a christian and Buddhist if you want. (Buddhism is not a religeon)

[colinneil]

50 minutes ago, Tongjaw said:

It’s been reported that the young Christian boy Abdu Sam-on will not be entering the Buddhist monkhood with his fellow team mates 

 

https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/se-asia/thai-boys-rescued-from-cave-to-be-ordained-in-buddhist-ceremony

 

 

Thank you for posting that, as i said no Christian boy would volunteer to become a novice Buddist monk.