New topic (about guns)

[starky]

On 8/15/2018 at 3:37 PM, jvs said:

The amount of so called guard dogs that will actually engage an intruder is very very low.People think they have a dog that will bite but very few do so without proper training.In the Op's case it sounds like the thieves know when the place is deserted and then come and take stuff.Not likely these people come with guns blazing and empty the whole place or show up when they know people are there.

What the OP needs is a few dogs that will make a lot of noise so they will alarm the workers wo are living on the site.A guard dog in a kennel is useless just like you can not protect your family with a gun if you are not at home!!!

You can use a combination of dogs and electronic devices or protect your investment and or family.There are other options but i think this will do for Henk Jan.

Thank you at least someone with minimal understanding. Number 1 there are dogs that become loyal to your family as they become obviously part of the pack and become protective of their pack their territory they aren't attack dogs nor guard dogs. They are territorial and protective of the hand that feeds them.

  Some uninformed bullshit on here. Firstly he isn't staying there so having a family dog isn't going to work and he has no fences on his property so dogs could wander. As far as security dogs go you have guard dogs and sentry dogs. Guard dogs are generally large breeds that make a lot of noise and are used solely as a deterrent. If someone jumps your fence they may attack they may not but they are extremely susceptible to poison or any sort of attack coming from outside their enclosure, nor would I want them anywhere near my family

Sentry dogs like Alsatians are used by the military, police and other security they are chosen specifically from thousands of dogs from certain lines proven by their intelligence, nature and courage. They can be trained to do almost anything including attack on command or attack in defense of a post but are useless without their handler. Which is the person that works with them day in and out and constantly reinforces the Command/reward system but again without their handler they are just another dog. These posters giving canines superhuman powers are either talking out their arse or just have no idea. Much like the OP with his big bad gun which is also useless not only because it isn't in his name but because unless he is willing to stand on post all night every night to defend his property he will never see the criminals involved. Fycks sake.

Edited August 20, 2018 by starky

[chrisinth]

On 8/19/2018 at 12:19 AM, Henkjan2 said:

Now the wife is interested in a Bang Kaew dog for after i'm gone home; she had one earlier a long time ago.

 

 I read they are protective to the owner and can patrol a warehouse, but also stubborn to learn. 

 

I dont know is this a good idea or is it  ???

 

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thai_Bangkaew_Dog

IMO, without a doubt, Bangkaew's can be fearlessly loyal, but are not suitable for first time dog owners. I am not talking about your wife here, once you bring dogs like this into your lives they are part of the family, but need to know their place.

[starky]

1 minute ago, chrisinth said:

IMO, without a doubt, Bangkaew's can be fearlessly loyal, but are not suitable for first time dog owners. I am not talking about your wife here, once you bring dogs like this into your lives they are part of the family, but need to know their place.

Read my above post a lot of uniformed nonsense on here. I have bred and trained dogs for many years and have worked and trained with military dog handlers the amount of training, time, effort and discipline it takes to create the sort of dog some of these posters are dreaming about is mind blowing

 

[wildewillie89]

Slightly off topic, but anyway.

Up to 50k usd from memory to train herding dogs to get them up to government standards. To be fair though, handlers usually have zero intense working experience with many breeds due to specifically choosing the breeds best suited to the work/sport they participate in. Logical handlers will openly admit they only down play other working breeds as they haven't spent the time developing methods that are effective in terms of understanding their instincts so they fail miserably with them. Nor should they be spending time with them.

I think that sometimes causes confusion. People judge different dogs through the lens of the dogs they work with and know (usually modern breeds), rather than taking the time to properly research a dog's history and/or go out and observe them. The reason for that is the dogs are not popular Western dogs so indeed are hard to research/observe. However, they are becoming popular now as working dogs in the West as popularity has ruined the herding dogs. 

Personally, I would say for my dogs, regardless if they had the resources and 50k spent on them or not, would still be completely useless for personal protection in public (too aggressive). But for land/home protection, a different matter with just time spent on them. But look at their make up, one's sole purpose for thousands of years has been to naturally protect large areas without any training or even any human interaction (only display a nurturing side due to protecting livestock which they have transferred to young children/small women). The other's sole purpose is to hate and attack everything (including show judges, children, women, whatever - was eating a turtle the other morning) except his immediate family for hundreds of years. Such qualities are 100% instinctive, no train/command/reward system - independent thinking. Assess situation and act. However, qualities that are very dangerous if not understood by people (i.e many public situations and some private situations).  

But as Chrisinth says, there are certain dogs that require some real experience. Experience for me is a similar minded dog but much more manageable (either smaller or softer temperament). So for example, the GS forums tend to think owning a GS is NOT sufficient experience to own a Caucasian Shepherd as completely different temperament. I did time with 3 Maremmas, just to get that understanding of instincts before I moved to the naturally more aggressive Caucasian. The Fila is a whole new ball game, but everyone knows that is the one dog breed in the world different from all others. That took a good year of research, talking to people, visiting, and yes, already owning an aggressive breed, 

Edited August 20, 2018 by wildewillie89

[mogandave]

I had a white Akita here that was pretty good. Not too bright but protective as all get-out...

[starky]

4 hours ago, wildewillie89 said:

Slightly off topic, but anyway.

Up to 50k usd from memory to train herding dogs to get them up to government standards. To be fair though, handlers usually have zero intense working experience with many breeds due to specifically choosing the breeds best suited to the work/sport they participate in. Logical handlers will openly admit they only down play other working breeds as they haven't spent the time developing methods that are effective in terms of understanding their instincts so they fail miserably with them. Nor should they be spending time with them.

I think that sometimes causes confusion. People judge different dogs through the lens of the dogs they work with and know (usually modern breeds), rather than taking the time to properly research a dog's history and/or go out and observe them. The reason for that is the dogs are not popular Western dogs so indeed are hard to research/observe. However, they are becoming popular now as working dogs in the West as popularity has ruined the herding dogs. 

Personally, I would say for my dogs, regardless if they had the resources and 50k spent on them or not, would still be completely useless for personal protection in public (too aggressive). But for land/home protection, a different matter with just time spent on them. But look at their make up, one's sole purpose for thousands of years has been to naturally protect large areas without any training or even any human interaction (only display a nurturing side due to protecting livestock which they have transferred to young children/small women). The other's sole purpose is to hate and attack everything (including show judges, children, women, whatever - was eating a turtle the other morning) except his immediate family for hundreds of years. Such qualities are 100% instinctive, no train/command/reward system - independent thinking. Assess situation and act. However, qualities that are very dangerous if not understood by people (i.e many public situations and some private situations).  

But as Chrisinth says, there are certain dogs that require some real experience. Experience for me is a similar minded dog but much more manageable (either smaller or softer temperament). So for example, the GS forums tend to think owning a GS is NOT sufficient experience to own a Caucasian Shepherd as completely different temperament. I did time with 3 Maremmas, just to get that understanding of instincts before I moved to the naturally more aggressive Caucasian. The Fila is a whole new ball game, but everyone knows that is the one dog breed in the world different from all others. That took a good year of research, talking to people, visiting, and yes, already owning an aggressive breed, 

Yes all those traits are instinctive but if you haven't stayed on the property, haven't raised the dog and don't even have a perimeter yet what is this dog going to be protective of? The thieves have probably spent more time on the property than this muppet. I would also say that unless you are talking about your dog's specifically that every dogs second purpose is to hate everything is pure fallacy. You stop feeding your "attack" dog for 3 days then let me roll up with some water and chicken breast and we can test your hate everything theory.  You are extrapolating the pack theory with your own personal prejudices without a pack a dog will naturally find a new pack/ pack leader to bond with. I also question your breed theory I have worked with rotties, Akitas, cane corso, Alsatians and my background for the last 3 generations is the APBT apparently the most fearsome dog on the planet if you want to drink the kool aid. If you needed to work with 3 dogs and a year of research maybe you don't fully understand dog behaviour. 

Edited August 20, 2018 by starky

[jvs]

36 minutes ago, starky said:

Yes all those traits are instinctive but if you haven't stayed on the property, haven't raised the dog and don't even have a perimeter yet what is this dog going to be protective of? The thieves have probably spent more time on the property than this muppet. I would also say that unless you are talking about your dog's specifically that every dogs second purpose is to hate everything is pure fallacy. You stop feeding your "attack" dog for 3 days then let me roll up with some water and chicken breast and we can test your hate everything theory.  You are extrapolating the pack theory with your own personal prejudices without a pack a dog will naturally find a new pack/ pack leader to bond with. I also question your breed theory I have worked with rotties, Akitas, cane corso, Alsatians and my background for the last 3 generations is the APBT apparently the most fearsome dog on the planet if you want to drink the kool aid. If you needed to work with 3 dogs and a year of research maybe you don't fully understand dog behaviour. 

you are going to get it now!I know i did!!!

[wildewillie89]

15 hours ago, starky said:

Yes all those traits are instinctive but if you haven't stayed on the property, haven't raised the dog and don't even have a perimeter yet what is this dog going to be protective of? The thieves have probably spent more time on the property than this muppet. I would also say that unless you are talking about your dog's specifically that every dogs second purpose is to hate everything is pure fallacy. You stop feeding your "attack" dog for 3 days then let me roll up with some water and chicken breast and we can test your hate everything theory.  You are extrapolating the pack theory with your own personal prejudices without a pack a dog will naturally find a new pack/ pack leader to bond with. I also question your breed theory I have worked with rotties, Akitas, cane corso, Alsatians and my background for the last 3 generations is the APBT apparently the most fearsome dog on the planet if you want to drink the kool aid. If you needed to work with 3 dogs and a year of research maybe you don't fully understand dog behaviour. 

The thread has already discussed having a fence before a dog (I also mentioned it, OP seems to be getting it). The dog will protect the land/stock. I think it was the Imperial War Museum that displayed accounts of Maremmas temporarily being used to replace Alsatians during the war as the Alsatians were being put down too easily guarding stock.

Guardian dogs work in pairs or small groups to begin with (thought that was obvious). They do not seek packs. Land, livestock (even penguins in Australia) or family come before joining packs of stray dogs. Any stray dog is either chased away or killed - not accepted. They couldn't have existed for the past 2,000 odd years by your thinking. *By the way the pack leader theory has been debunked how many times now by academics. The AVSAB discussed this 8 years ago re training in particular.  

Look up Filas or better yet go and observe some. They are one dog breed in the world different to all other breeds. They are not trained attack dogs, it is simply their nature (which is why it was the only breed permitted to not be disqualified for attacking show judges for so long). There are a few FB groups you can join for ease, but I suggest going out and actually observing/talking to people. Cane Corso trainers often get on the FB groups to ask how they will go with Filas. One recent person was someone who just moved to Venezuela who has a business training Malinois but wants a Fila for home/land protection. 

Your recommendation is to just go out and own dogs without prior experience of dogs with similar temperaments? Literally what every single dog expert argues against when talking independent thinking dogs (even your basic puppy school teacher). I do not get the Pitbull being fearless comment. Pitbulls are human friendly. They will lick an intruder to death unless they have had serious time spent on them/with their handler, completely different dogs. The London Magazine wrote about how the Soviet Army tried to train Caucasians when patrolling the Berlin Wall using aversive stimuli, but the dogs proved impervious to pain. A Fila at one year of age is tested not to be fearful of a gunshot 5 metres away. Although hard to verify (for obvious reasons), it is said the Israeli Defence Force use these dogs as they are naturally not scared of loud noises (guns/bombs) - even though the dog is banned in the country. The Brazilian Army did a 5 year study in 'extreme hostile jungle conditions' and found Alsatians to be more intelligent, but Filas scored higher in aggression, sensibility, temperament, energy, resistance, rusticity and strength.    

It was a UK singer (Stone) who bought a CO after receiving death threats. Already owned a Rottie...observation - they are nocturnal and have a temperament that makes a Rottie look shy. Completely different drives that need 'serious experience' to work with (as the GS training forums agree with). 

They will not be motivated by toys/food, so it takes a complete different methodology when  working with them - 'experience of dogs with similar drives'. Maybe instead of having silly debates, actually go and research their history and drive. *True working livestock guardians (2 years up) do not accept food from strangers, do not even drink water when off their land and go many weeks with limited food in the fields. Also designed not to be bathed for a lifetime and their nails even pop off or they bite them (as meant to survive with little human contact). However, do eat or bury the stillborn of livestock to try and hide the scent from predators. 

Edited August 21, 2018 by wildewillie89

[starky]

5 minutes ago, wildewillie89 said:

The thread has already discussed having a fence before a dog (I also mentioned it, OP seems to be getting it). The dog will protect the land/stock. I think it was the Imperial War Museum that displayed accounts of Maremmas temporarily being used to replace Alsatians during the war as the Alsatians were being put down too easily guarding stock.

Guardian dogs work in pairs or small groups to begin with (thought that was obvious). They do not seek packs. Land, livestock (even penguins in Australia) or family come before joining packs of stray dogs. Any stray dog is either chased away or killed - not accepted. They couldn't have existed for the past 2,000 odd years by your thinking. *By the way the pack leader theory has been debunked how many times now by academics. The AVSAB discussed this 8 years ago re training in particular.  

Look up Filas or better yet go and observe some. They are one dog breed in the world different to all other breeds. They are not trained attack dogs, it is simply their nature (which is why it was the only breed permitted to not be disqualified for attacking show judges for so long). There are a few FB groups you can join for ease, but I suggest going out and actually observing/talking to people. Cane Corso trainers often get on the FB groups to ask how they will go with Filas. One recent person was someone who just moved to Venezuela who has a business training Malinois but wants a Fila for home/land protection. 

Your recommendation is to just go out and own dogs without prior experience of dogs with similar temperaments? Literally what every single dog expert argues against when talking independent thinking dogs (even your basic puppy school teacher). I do not get the Pitbull being fearless comment. Pitbulls are human friendly. They will lick an intruder to death unless they have had serious time spent on them/with their handler, completely different dogs. The London Magazine wrote about how the Soviet Army tried to train Caucasians when patrolling the Berlin Wall using aversive stimuli, but the dogs proved impervious to pain. A Fila at one year of age is tested not to be fearful of a gunshot 5 metres away. Although hard to verify (for obvious reasons), it is said the Israeli Defence Force use these dogs as they are naturally not scared of loud noises (guns/bombs) - even though the dog is banned in the country. The Brazilian Army did a 5 year study in 'extreme hostile jungle conditions' and found Alsatians to be more intelligent, but Filas scored higher in aggression, sensibility, temperament, energy, resistance, rusticity and strength.    

It was a UK singer (Stone) who bought a CO after receiving death threats. Already owned a Rottie...observation - they are nocturnal and have a temperament that makes a Rottie look shy. Completely different drives that need 'serious experience' to work with (as the GS training forums agree with). 

They will not be motivated by toys/food, so it takes a complete different methodology when  working with them - 'experience of dogs with similar drives'. Maybe instead of having silly debates, actually go and research their history and drive. *True working livestock guardians (2 years up) do not accept food from strangers, do not even drink water when off their land and go many weeks without food in the fields. However, do eat or bury the stillborn of livestock to try and hide the scent from predators. 

I said fearsome not fearless. The rest I can't bother arguing with its a dog. It can be socialised. As for true working dogs my dogs only eat and drink on command its hard to train but with time and patience doable. Saw too many dogs poisoned in thailand and mine are worth too much for that shit. As for the rest we will have to agree to disagree. All filas are tested at 1 year to not be fearsome of gun shots? All? Yeah righto mate.

[wildewillie89]

1 minute ago, starky said:

I said fearsome not fearless. The rest I can't bother arguing with its a dog. It can be socialised. As for true working dogs my dogs only eat and drink on command its hard to train but with time and patience doable. Saw too many dogs poisoned in thailand and mine are worth too much for that shit. As for the rest we will have to agree to disagree. All filas are tested at 1 year to not be fearsome of gun shots? All? Yeah righto mate.

I think from my previous comments on the thread regarding show lines it is pretty obvious the lines I am talking about. 

[starky]

8 minutes ago, wildewillie89 said:

I think from my previous comments on the thread regarding show lines it is pretty obvious the lines I am talking about. 

I get it your fond of the breed. I can get very defensive about the APBT. Personally I don't want a large "natural" attack dog with a an aggressive personality that I couldn't leave around with a stranger . I want a well trained dog that is aggressive when required but also has the intelligence and temperament to nor want to attack everyone not familiar to them.

[wildewillie89]

1 hour ago, starky said:

I get it your fond of the breed. I can get very defensive about the APBT. Personally I don't want a large "natural" attack dog with a an aggressive personality that I couldn't leave around with a stranger . I want a well trained dog that is aggressive when required but also has the intelligence and temperament to nor want to attack everyone not familiar to them.

I completely agree and that is the dog that the vast majority of people want - especially in populated areas (suburbia) and low crime areas. It is the dog I too would also want if living in those environments or had lower level security needs. 

[starky]

3 hours ago, wildewillie89 said:

I completely agree and that is the dog that the vast majority of people want - especially in populated areas (suburbia) and low crime areas. It is the dog I too would also want if living in those environments or had lower level security needs. 

I knew we could work it out...? we are both clearly dog lovers useless locking horns over a guy that needs a gun to defend a property he doesn't stay at who has the ability to shoot to wound with a gun that isn't registered to him in a country with no specific firearm self defence laws particularly if your a falang with an unregistered weapon ? 

Edited August 21, 2018 by starky

[stud858]

I would put signage up showing a picture of your gun and scatter bullet shells around your property.

 

Q. Why in the movies are the shooting skills of people so off? 5 metres sway from each other and they still miss

[Kwasaki]

On 7/30/2018 at 5:50 AM, Aussieroaming said:

Best to hire a watchman i would have thought

Yes and with a dog. ?

[mogandave]

Yes and with a dog. [emoji106]

Train the dog to keep the guard awake..,

[Henkjan2]

Now the wife is interested in a Bang Kaew dog for after i'm gone home; she had one earlier a long time ago.

 

 I read they are protective to the owner and can patrol a warehouse, but also stubborn to learn. 

 

I dont know is this a good idea or is it  ???

 

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thai_Bangkaew_Dog

[Kwasaki]

12 minutes ago, Henkjan2 said:

Now the wife is interested in a Bang Kaew dog for after i'm gone home; she had one earlier a long time ago.

 

 I read they are protective to the owner and can patrol a warehouse, but also stubborn to learn. 

 

I dont know is this a good idea or is it  ???

Your probably need a gun to shoot it before your allow back in the property to greet your wife. ?

[Henkjan2]

Sorry,  my last text was posted twice:

 

Yesterday i made the red-white chains on the open gates. 1 of the gates has been finished already.

 

I hope by end of next week all fencing will be finished. 

 

Last night the welder/guard called us in fear; he saw 6 people on the terrain. Immediatly we called the police,  after 1 hour they called back that they saw only our worker who had been heavily drinking. 

 

Today i'm buying LED lamps for more security in the dark  ... to be continued. 

 

Edited August 25, 2018 by Henkjan2
Wrong picture

[jvs]

29 minutes ago, Henkjan2 said:

Now the wife is interested in a Bang Kaew dog for after i'm gone home; she had one earlier a long time ago.

 

 I read they are protective to the owner and can patrol a warehouse, but also stubborn to learn. 

 

I dont know is this a good idea or is it  ???

 

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thai_Bangkaew_Dog

You won't need to teach him anything,just feed him and he will stick around.Very few health problems with a native breed,they can be very protective and if you have a few of them you should be safe.

I mentioned it before,these thieves are probably a bunch of local oppertunists who know when nobody is there.

Be not fooled and think your workers will not steal from you.