temporary foriegn 'ownership' of property when thai wife dies

[tutsiwarrior]

my wife died recently and from my understanding our house which is in her name shall belong to me for one year, the required legal activity for the ownership transfer is now in the local provincial court...I will pass the property over to my wife's daughter as that was her wish, however the daughter has recently announced her desire to get married and I want the property to be in her name only and not 'community property' to be divided in the event of a divorce...for this purpose I will need to transfer the title (chanote) to her before she registers the marriage at the amphur, a 'ceremonial wedding' should not have any affect on property ownership issues which will come into effect when the marriage is formally registered...

 

is this correct? thanks in advance for any useful replies...I have a usufruct on the property entered on the chanote so my tenure here should not be affected in any event...

 

 

[ELVIS123456]

You do not now and will not ever own the house.  Get a lawyer - quickly.  You might soon have nowhere to live.  Dont talk to family members or anyone in the village - get a lawyer now. Take all the documents you have with you. At the very least you need a usufruct arrangement put in place with the new owner when the title is transferred - but do not discuss first - find out the details and how ASAP - then discuss things.

 

[sirineou]

 My condolences on the passing of your wife. We also own substantial property in Thailand  as do many others and I am interested in the answers you get. I am following this thread.

Good Luck, and again my sincerest condolences. 

[tutsiwarrior]

17 minutes ago, ELVIS123456 said:

You do not now and will not ever own the house.  Get a lawyer - quickly.  You might soon have nowhere to live.  Dont talk to family members or anyone in the village - get a lawyer now. Take all the documents you have with you. At the very least you need a usufruct arrangement put in place with the new owner when the title is transferred - but do not discuss first - find out the details and how ASAP - then discuss things.

 

my understanding is that the usufruct remains in place on the death of the wife as that's why falang husbands get them in the first place...and that during the period of one year I am free to sell the property as I wish and the right to sell the property represents 'ownership' for most purposes...in the event that things don't turn out to my liking then I have the option to sell during the year period...

 

thanks for your reply, let's get the discussion going to see what others say...

Edited July 28, 2018 by tutsiwarrior

[trd]

You do not now and will not ever own the house.  Get a lawyer - quickly.  You might soon have nowhere to live.  Dont talk to family members or anyone in the village - get a lawyer now. Take all the documents you have with you. At the very least you need a usufruct arrangement put in place with the new owner when the title is transferred - but do not discuss first - find out the details and how ASAP - then discuss things.
 

You are wrong. According to Thai law he has one year to transfer ownership as he stated. He has a usufruct in joint names which is perfectly legal, but because his wife has passed he cannot be the sole foreign owner of the land and house and so Thai land law grants one year to transfer the ownership. Don't make people panic when you don't know the law yourself.

[pontious]

He already has a usufruct.

[ELVIS123456]

24 minutes ago, tutsiwarrior said:

my understanding is that the usufruct remains in place on the death of the wife as that's why falang husbands get them in the first place...and that during the period of one year I am free to sell the property as I wish and the right to sell the property represents 'ownership' for most purposes...in the event that things don't turn out to my liking then I have the option to sell during the year period...

 

thanks for your reply, let's get the discussion going to see what others say...

See a lawyer. Up to you.  You do not 'technically' own the house and never will have any ownership 'rights'. 

You have a right to occupy and the usufruct covers you while the other person is alive and has title to property - definitely.

After death and a transfer of ownership - I am not sure what you need to do to maintain the usufruct, so I recommend you see a lawyer.  That is my advice. Up to you. This is Thailand.  Better safe than sorry. Better informed than ignorant. 

 

Edited July 28, 2018 by ELVIS123456

[tomas557]

8 minutes ago, ELVIS123456 said:

See a lawyer. Up to you.  You do not 'technically' own the house and never will have any ownership 'rights'. 

You have no idea what you are talking about, so better shut up.

 

A foreigner can inherit property, and will be given 1 year to sell it.

 

If Thai law is same as most other countries, that mean that the spouse will inherit the house when the other party dies, unless there was a will.

Edited July 28, 2018 by tomas557

[Sophon]

47 minutes ago, tutsiwarrior said:

however the daughter has recently announced her desire to get married and I want the property to be in her name only and not 'community property' to be divided in the event of a divorce...for this purpose I will need to transfer the title (chanote) to her before she registers the marriage at the amphur

I could be wrong, but I don't think you necessarily need to transfer the property to her before she gets married. 

 

From Siam Legal:

Quote

SIN SUAN TUA - considered as separate property to a marriage are the following:

• Property belonging to either spouse before marriage;
• Property for personal use, clothes or ornaments;
• Property acquired by either spouse during marriage by will or gift;
• Khongman (dowry).

 

Sophon

[blackcab]

You have 1 year to transfer the land. However don't worry too much. If you cannot get the transfer completed before the marriage you can use Section 1471 (3) of the Civil and Commercial Code and specify the property as a gift. In this instance the property would become the sole property of the daughter.

[blackcab]

13 minutes ago, ELVIS123456 said:

After death and a transfer of ownership - I am not sure what you need to do to maintain the usufruct...

 

The usufructee does not have to do anything. A usufruct is a real property right that survives the death of the usufructor.

[tutsiwarrior]

looks like I won't own the house but will be a 'custodian' until a new owner is found...but during that time I can sell the property if I want to a new owner...the property ownership will not pass to me during that time...

 

yeah, legal advice is available but there have been numerous reports of crooked thai lawyers and they ain't cheap...just wondering what other folks experiences have been before I seek legal assistance...

 

also don't know about transferring an usufruct as I thought that the usufructary's name remained on the chanote until he died with all rights and privileges pertaining thereto regardless of new owners...

 

 

[pontious]

If you have a will leaving everything to each other { no children } is there any need for a usufruct?  Is the foreigner still able to live and sell within 1 year?

[ELVIS123456]

5 minutes ago, blackcab said:

 

The usufructee does not have to do anything. A usufruct is a real property right that survives the death of the usufructor.

Thanks for clarifying Blackcab.  

But I still thinks he needs to see a lawyer ASAP so that he knows his rights and what to do.

That he even thinks that he 'owns' the property for a year (and some others too) shows how little he actually knows/understands.

 

13 minutes ago, tomas557 said:

You have no idea what you are talking about, so better shut up.

 

A foreigner can inherit property, and will be given 1 year to sell it.

 

If Thai law is same as most other countries, that mean that the spouse will inherit the house when the other party dies, unless there was a will.

You have absolutely no idea mate. Shut up.

Your statement :  "If Thai law is same as most other countries,........."  is ridiculous. T

Thai law aint the same at all.  Foreigners cannot own property with land - period.

 

[ELVIS123456]

7 minutes ago, tutsiwarrior said:

looks like I won't own the house but will be a 'custodian' until a new owner is found...but during that time I can sell the property if I want to a new owner...the property ownership will not pass to me during that time...

 

yeah, legal advice is available but there have been numerous reports of crooked thai lawyers and they ain't cheap...just wondering what other folks experiences have been before I seek legal assistance...

 

also don't know about transferring an usufruct as I thought that the usufructary's name remained on the chanote until he died with all rights and privileges pertaining thereto regardless of new owners...

 

No No No - you cant sell - period. You have no ownership 'rights'.

The title has to be transferred within a year (sooner better), but you cannot do that.

See a lawyer.

I am out of here.

 

 

[pontious]

5 minutes ago, ELVIS123456 said:

No No No - you cant sell - period. You have no ownership 'rights'.

The title has to be transferred within a year (sooner better), but you cannot do that.

See a lawyer.

I am out of here.

 

 

Good! That will hopefully just leave adults to discuss this.

Edited July 28, 2018 by pontious
add

[tomas557]

4 minutes ago, ELVIS123456 said:

You have absolutely no idea mate. Shut up.

Your statement :  "If Thai law is same as most other countries,........."  is ridiculous. T

Thai law aint the same at all.  Foreigners cannot own property with land - period.

Your reading abilities are seemingly on the same level as your knowledge.

 

I never said foreigners can own property with land, but they can inherit it, and have the right to sell it within 1 year.

 

With my statement about Thai law I meant marital law, not inheritance law since that already is confirmed by Blackcab, but that went clearly over your head.

Edited July 28, 2018 by tomas557

[tutsiwarrior]

looks like my concern regarding sole ownership by the daughter has been addressed by sophon and blackcab with the gift clause after marriage in the 'sin suan tua' and the civil and commercial property code...in any event I'll need a lawyer to sort out the transfer details when the time comes...

 

the lady at the provincial court offered her services as my attorney when we started the process a few weeks ago...the processing time is 45 days before the property comes under the falang widower's control...the daughter wants to get married in October...

[sirineou]

5 minutes ago, ELVIS123456 said:

No No No - you cant sell - period. You have no ownership 'rights'.

The title has to be transferred within a year (sooner better), but you cannot do that.

See a lawyer.

I am out of here.

 

 

I dont know about Thailand but one does not need to be the owner to be able to sell. There are plenty of mechanism under which a non-owner can sell a property, I was just able to do that as a executor  of a will in the US.

[sirineou]

6 minutes ago, tutsiwarrior said:

looks like my concern regarding sole ownership by the daughter has been addressed by sophon and blackcab with the gift clause after marriage in the 'sin suan tua' and the civil and commercial property code...in any event I'll need a lawyer to sort out the transfer details when the time comes...

 

the lady at the provincial court offered her services as my attorney when we started the process a few weeks ago...the processing time is 45 days before the property comes under the falang widower's control...the daughter wants to get married in October...

I don't know the lady at the provincial court or what her capacity is at the court , but if she is an official there she might be better equipped to expedite this.  You might want to think about that.

[Get Real]

1 hour ago, tutsiwarrior said:

my understanding is that the usufruct remains in place on the death of the wife as that's why falang husbands get them in the first place...and that during the period of one year I am free to sell the property as I wish and the right to sell the property represents 'ownership' for most purposes...in the event that things don't turn out to my liking then I have the option to sell during the year period...

 

thanks for your reply, let's get the discussion going to see what others say...

You are perfectly right about the right to use and that you have 1 year do decide what to do with the property and the house. However, that is already decided by your late wife as you said and have agreed to, for honour her memory.

Regarding the transfer of the property and house in the daugthers name, that is best to be done before the marriage get registered as you say. Here it depends on how long time you have, due to that it can sometimes take time to transfer property between different names. The best you can do is to inform the daugther of that and your wish. In that case they can wait to register the marriage.

Edited July 28, 2018 by Get Real

[tutsiwarrior]

looks like my concern regarding sole ownership by the daughter has been addressed by sophon and blackcab with the gift clause after marriage in the 'sin suan tua' and the civil and commercial property code...in any event I'll need a lawyer to sort out the transfer details when the time comes...

 

the lady at the provincial court offered her services as my attorney when we started the process a few weeks ago...the processing time is 45 days before the property comes under the falang widower's control...the daughter wants to get married in October...

[Get Real]

1 hour ago, ELVIS123456 said:

You do not now and will not ever own the house.  Get a lawyer - quickly.  You might soon have nowhere to live.  Dont talk to family members or anyone in the village - get a lawyer now. Take all the documents you have with you. At the very least you need a usufruct arrangement put in place with the new owner when the title is transferred - but do not discuss first - find out the details and how ASAP - then discuss things.

 

 

1 hour ago, ELVIS123456 said:

See a lawyer. Up to you.  You do not 'technically' own the house and never will have any ownership 'rights'. 

You have a right to occupy and the usufruct covers you while the other person is alive and has title to property - definitely.

After death and a transfer of ownership - I am not sure what you need to do to maintain the usufruct, so I recommend you see a lawyer.  That is my advice. Up to you. This is Thailand.  Better safe than sorry. Better informed than ignorant. 

 

 

37 minutes ago, ELVIS123456 said:

Thanks for clarifying Blackcab.  

But I still thinks he needs to see a lawyer ASAP so that he knows his rights and what to do.

That he even thinks that he 'owns' the property for a year (and some others too) shows how little he actually knows/understands.

 

You have absolutely no idea mate. Shut up.

Your statement :  "If Thai law is same as most other countries,........."  is ridiculous. T

Thai law aint the same at all.  Foreigners cannot own property with land - period.

 

 

35 minutes ago, ELVIS123456 said:

No No No - you cant sell - period. You have no ownership 'rights'.

The title has to be transferred within a year (sooner better), but you cannot do that.

See a lawyer.

I am out of here.

 

 

Yeah, I think we all know who should take the advice to, as you say, "Shut up". That is you my dear friend.

All above tells everbody here that you are totally novice regarding anything you are discussing in this particular area. I am also glad that you are out of here. The discussion will suddenly get a level that is in balance with reality.

Edited July 28, 2018 by Get Real

[tutsiwarrior]

it's OK if ELVIS wantsta put in his coupla baht...if he is found to be incorrect then that will help to clear some common misconceptions...

 

 

[Get Real]

1 minute ago, tutsiwarrior said:

it's OK if ELVIS wantsta put in his coupla baht...if he is found to be incorrect then that will help to clear some common misconceptions...

 

 

Elvis has just left the building. Next time you will see him is at a motel restaurant outside of Cleveland eating a burger. 

[tutsiwarrior]

53 minutes ago, pontious said:

If you have a will leaving everything to each other { no children } is there any need for a usufruct?  Is the foreigner still able to live and sell within 1 year?

 

we had no wills...it's just what the law allows in these cases...my wife had untreated heart disease and died suddenly but she had said years ago that she wanted her daughter to inherit the house...she's got 2 kids and they've been living here all their lives so it's cool by me...with the usufruct my status won't change here in any case...

 

 

 

 

[Delight]

 Just to clarify

A Was the house purchased before or after marriage?

B  Did your wife leave a  Will -If so who are  the beneficiaries.?

 

C Do you have Usufruct-one that states you can live in the house till your death? This is important . With this in your possession -you can stay. The new owner will have to honour it.

 

Edit

 

I have just read your last post

ie No Will -but you have a usufruct

To my mind your circumstances are very simple

 

The Thai law is very specific in relation the distribution of assets where there is no will

 

It is as follows

1. descendants
2. parents
3. brothers and sisters of full blood
4. brothers and sisters of half blood
5. grandparents
6. uncles and aunts
7. The surviving spouse is a statutory heir, subject to the special provisions of Section 1635 Civil and Commercial Code.

 

The way I read this is that her children will inherit all her assets. they will be divided up equally.

Given that your usufruct is based on your life -then you stay there.

Simple

 

 

Edited July 28, 2018 by Delight

[KhaoYai]

3 hours ago, ELVIS123456 said:

See a lawyer. Up to you.  You do not 'technically' own the house and never will have any ownership 'rights'. 

You have a right to occupy and the usufruct covers you while the other person is alive and has title to property - definitely.

After death and a transfer of ownership - I am not sure what you need to do to maintain the usufruct, so I recommend you see a lawyer.  That is my advice. Up to you. This is Thailand.  Better safe than sorry. Better informed than ignorant. 

 

A usufruct dies with the tenant, not the landlord so he is OK on that score - provided of course that the usufruct was properly registered against the title at the land office. The  above statement on ownership is wrong, provided the property has been left to the OP in a will, he is allowed to own it and has the same rights as everyone else - abeit temporarily for a period of 12 months to allow the property to be sold or transferred. I am not sure but I believe this 12 month period can be extended if the property has not sold provided proof of adequate marketing can be shown.

 

However, where I do agree is that the OP should see a lawyer immediately - lots of underhand things go on in Thailand and a few thousand baht notes in brown envelopes seem to be able to do previously impossible things - including ownership transfers.  OP, do you have possesion of the chanotte?

Edited July 28, 2018 by KhaoYai

[tutsiwarrior]

1 hour ago, KhaoYai said:

A usufruct dies with the tenant, not the landlord so he is OK on that score - provided of course that the usufruct was properly registered against the title at the land office. The  above statement on ownership is wrong, provided the property has been left to the OP in a will, he is allowed to own it and has the same rights as everyone else - abeit temporarily for a period of 12 months to allow the property to be sold or transferred. I am not sure but I believe this 12 month period can be extended if the property has not sold provided proof of adequate marketing can be shown.

 

However, where I do agree is that the OP should see a lawyer immediately - lots of underhand things go on in Thailand and a few thousand baht notes in brown envelopes seem to be able to do previously impossible things - including ownership transfers.  OP, do you have possesion of the chanotte?

 

I have the chanote and I will see a lawyer to get a positive understanding of my rights and responsibilities...just need to find a reliable one, anyone got any suggestions for central Thailand? this would be for advice purposes only...

 

there is no will so does that make me he executor of my wife's estate? I engaged the lady official that was handling the paperwork at the provincial courthouse to represent me when the legal proceedings were initiated...if there is any proven malfeasance on her part then I presume that her official position would be seriously compromised...

 

 

[musiclover]

It is essential that you apply immediately to be executor of the estate through your lawyer

i have no experience of usufruct but plenty of experience of the same situation that you have sadly found yourself in..

You as spouse will be entitled to 50%of all assets acquired after marriage and a further equal split amongst other family heirs

I retained my house (after various serious hassles) and never had to sell it...

But please retain a lawyer asap.......