UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[kwilco]

2 hours ago, CG1 Blue said:

We already picked this (smoke and mirrors) story apart a few pages ago.  Keep up.

And who's Amy?

 

Smoke and mirrors?

Sunderland voted for this....

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/oct/04/nissan-becomes-latest-manufacturer-to-warn-against-hard-brexit

 

EVERY car company has complained about Brexit.....It ain't rocket science, it is plain and simple manufacturing.......and how it will be suspened or shifted.

Edited October 4, 2018 by kwilco

[CG1 Blue]

45 minutes ago, damascase said:

To what would the EU have to agree? They cannot and will not stop the UK from leaving so the UK is going to have its desired Brexit. Anything else is about future relations and those are a completely separate matter. Do not blame the EU for not taking seriously any proposals that would lead to the UK benefitting from an entity to which they do not want to belong. Brexit is Brexit, remember?

So you're in the 'punish them' camp, rather than trying to work out a deal that benefits all parties. I hope the EU don't follow that path. The phrase 'cutting your nose off to spite your face' springs to mind.

[CG1 Blue]

20 minutes ago, kwilco said:

Smoke and mirrors?

Sunderland voted for this....

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/oct/04/nissan-becomes-latest-manufacturer-to-warn-against-hard-brexit

 

EVERY car company has complained about Brexit.....It ain't rocket science, it is plain and simple manufacturing.......and how it will be suspened or shifted.

Car companies are lobbying and putting pressure on all parties, and making veiled threats. I don't blame them for that. But don't be naïve enough to believe that everything they are saying will come true.

[kwilco]

3 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

Car companies are lobbying and putting pressure on all parties, and making veiled threats. I don't blame them for that. But don't be naïve enough to believe that everything they are saying will come true.

Why do you think that is?

But as you concede that some of it will....how is that even a good thing?

 

There is not a single aspect of Brexit that is suggested will improve UL inindustry, manufacturing or commerce.

 

Edited October 4, 2018 by kwilco

[Jip99]

47 minutes ago, damascase said:

Why not? I can almost hear the uproar if the EU would unilaterally prescribe the future relationship, the very reason for Brexit being that the UK wants to determine its own future.............

 

 

I don’t think that is unreasonable...... take the “EU exit terms” (as predetermined) or take WTO terms etc, etc.

 

People seem to be over-looking the fact that ongoing trading between the UK and the EU is important to both sides.

 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

 

When I say I look forward to its collapse, I don't mean I wish to see heartache, strife or bloodshed for our European neighbours whom I hold in high regard and only wish the best for. I await the collapse of the EU for the multitude of reasons I have already stated throughout this ongoing thread, oilinki. I don't want to see anymore debt colonies, ruined economies, subjugated puppet-governments, a ruinous currency union, huge unemployment, social disorder and immigration crises, among other woes. 

 

The EU is both arbiter and creator of these issues and while it has a precious few benefits for some in Europe, these are wholly outweighed by the myriad of negatives. I have made my points very clearly about these time and again, so I shan't be explaining my reasoning any further. It's all written on previous pages for anyone to analyse and debate.

 

I wish to see democracy return to nation state Europe. Self determination and sovereign governance. Simple as that. I fear what will happen if this doesn't come to pass and we continue with this flawed EU experiment. The multitude of fundamental problems we've seen continent wide are but a prelude to what will come, IMO.

I hope that you understand that very many of us EU people think EU as a very good thing to have for ourselves and we are willing to protect EU's existence for years to come. 

 

The way we at the continental Europe see EU, differs significantly the way Brits see EU. We are not even talking about same thing when we talk about EU. 

 

I personally have much more common with my British, German, Spanish etc. friends, than I have with my fellow Finns, whose ways to think and interests can be quite different. 

 

 

[RuamRudy]

1 hour ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

I'm afraid to say the two world wars have shaped our modern world and so are never very far from many of the reasons behind modern events or the current landscape. Maybe you should read up on it a bit?

For one complaining about condescension, you are not so averse to it yourself. That said, it is a tired old trope within the TV threads for certain Brexiteers to hark on about the war as if Britain won it single handedly. 

 

2 hours ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

'British exceptionalism' is a term you've just added to the conversation. I never said anything of the sort. I simply stated historic fact. Something you clearly feel uncomfortable about.

'British exceptionalism' is what I inferred from this comment:

 

2 hours ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

Pursuing our own destiny is something we've done more successfully than most for over a millennium.

While Britain as geographic entity has indeed existed for quite some time, the Act of Union is barely 300 years old so we have not been collectively exceeding for a millennia. 

 

2 hours ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

But, how you can disregard many hundreds of years of formative history leading down to the present day and flippantly dismiss the fact that it has everything to do with our current culture is beyond me.

Can you point to an example of how I have disregarded anything to do with British history, let alone flippantly? That I don't have a bulldog tattooed on my arm or a misty eyed, undeserved sense of Britain being superior is not a dismissal of what our forefathers accomplished; it is just that I recognise that the world was in transition and we were merely part of it.

 

2 hours ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

Just because the UK was formed (as it exists today) in 1922, it doesn't diminish or truncate the long, turbulent and illustrious history of our constituent countries, their ups and downs or their joint ventures. 

But it in no way makes us special, unless you believe that every other nation on earth was a font of peace and calmness until recently. 

 

2 hours ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

You're clearly someone who is overtly embarrassed of the nation and its past. What a shame. 

You couldn't be more wrong, but I have lived and worked in enough countries around the world to recognise that the UK is not unique and not exceptional. Like the other countries I have been fortunate enough to experience, it has its positives and negatives, its times of heroics and its times of shame, but my and your worth is not enhanced in any way whatsoever by the accident of the country of our birth.

 

The real shame is that so many fell for the jingoism of Farage and the like, and are intent on driving the UK off a cliff, with the only comforting sop to offer being the myth of the indomitable bulldog spirit. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Jip99 said:

This is where we differ.

 

If the EU can construct rules, and Article 50, for all members - it should also construct the terms for leaving/future relationship. That cannot be left to individual member states to determine.

UK defines the terms for her own future. Then it's up to EU and UK to negotiate and define whether we come to an agreement or not.

 

Right not it seems that there is not going to be an agreement. That's fine as well. For both sides.

 

 

[billd766]

3 hours ago, sandyf said:

No argument there Bill, but the common denominator is the UK government, and the EU takes the flak.

 

Agree with you 100%.

 

The problem to me is that we are not getting the quality politicians that we are paying for.

[Guest]

38 minutes ago, Jip99 said:

 

 

I don’t think that is unreasonable...... take the “EU exit terms” (as predetermined) or take WTO terms etc, etc.

 

People seem to be over-looking the fact that ongoing trading between the UK and the EU is important to both sides.

 

EU principles are far more valuable than a dent in the economy. This is also the very difference how continental Europe and UK sees EU. For UK, EU is nothing but money. For Europe, it's much more than that.

 

[BwindiBoy]

3 hours ago, sandyf said:

A fairly obvious implication - "How much tax did those one million pay to the UK Treasury during those 15 years"

Please quote me correctly next time - you missed off the question mark, to my genuine question.

[damascase]

56 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

So you're in the 'punish them' camp, rather than trying to work out a deal that benefits all parties. I hope the EU don't follow that path. The phrase 'cutting your nose off to spite your face' springs to mind.

I don’t know where you get that I am in the ‘punish them’ camp, and neither is the EU. You want out because you feel that that is the way to decide on your own future, and nobody is going to stop you from doing so. So please, DECIDE, and don’t presume that some of the crucial membership benefits - e.g. the Customs Union  and the Single Market - can be retained.

[CG1 Blue]

7 minutes ago, damascase said:

I don’t know where you get that I am in the ‘punish them’ camp, and neither is the EU. You want out because you feel that that is the way to decide on your own future, and nobody is going to stop you from doing so. So please, DECIDE, and don’t presume that some of the crucial membership benefits - e.g. the Customs Union  and the Single Market - can be retained.

So you said: "Do not blame the EU for not taking seriously any proposals that would lead to the UK benefitting from an entity to which they do not want to belong"

 

You seem to imply that you / the EU don't want the UK to have a deal that would benefit both parties, because it might be good for the UK? Why would you / the EU not want the UK to have an orderly exit? That suggests to me you're in the 'punish them' camp.

Yes, we want out of the EU project. You might be offended by that. But anyone who joins a club has the right to leave if that club morphs into something completely different from when they joined. Surely you agree with that?

 

[welovesundaysatspace]

1 hour ago, CG1 Blue said:

So you're in the 'punish them' camp, rather than trying to work out a deal that benefits all parties.

So you’re admitting a no-deal would hurt? At least you learned something in the last two years, even though you still don’t get that no one cares about you getting hurt or not, it’s just about what’s best for the club. 

[CG1 Blue]

3 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

So you’re admitting a no-deal would hurt? At least you learned something in the last two years, even though you still don’t get that no one cares about you getting hurt or not, it’s just about what’s best for the club. 

But that's the point.  It's not about what's best for the club. Best for the club would be an orderly exit and continued good relations with the UK.

I don't recall saying a no deal would hurt.

[Guest]

22 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

Why would you / the EU not want the UK to have an orderly exit?

Because UK had her time to do that for the past 1.5 years and now the time is up. 

 

Feels like UK Brexiters are playing prolonged game 'try to catch me' and meanwhile EU is fed up with UK's silly games and wishes just get on with lives.

 

Stop whining. Let's go on with the no-deal Brexit. EU has long been prepared for it, hopefully UK has done the same.

 

[nauseus]

3 hours ago, tebee said:

 

 

Brexit has made the EU stronger 

 

https://www.economist.com/europe/2018/09/29/how-the-brexit-talks-demonstrate-the-eus-underlying-resilience?utm_source=quora&utm_medium=referral

 

Stronger smelling, that's about all.

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

But that's the point.  It's not about what's best for the club. Best for the club would be an orderly exit and continued good relations with the UK.

I don't recall saying a no deal would hurt.

Brexit is not a game, Brexit is not a practise. Brexit is the real deal. 

 

Time is simply up and it's time to move on.

[aright]

39 minutes ago, damascase said:

I don’t know where you get that I am in the ‘punish them’ camp, and neither is the EU. You want out because you feel that that is the way to decide on your own future, and nobody is going to stop you from doing so. So please, DECIDE, and don’t presume that some of the crucial membership benefits - e.g. the Customs Union  and the Single Market - can be retained.

 

To imply the EU is simply following its rules is nonsense. 

When did the EU follow the rules? Over bailouts?...…..deficits?...…………...the appointment of Martin Selmayr?

In the current negotiation they offer us nothing "at the moment";  but this has nothing to do with rules and every thing to do with browbeating. Every concession we have made has received no acknowledgement or counter proposals in good faith, as Eurocrats in an attempt to keep us in, hang their hat on an impossible demand...….. the annexation of Northern Ireland.

People in the UK don't want an acrimonious separation but nor are we prepared to accept the punitive terms on offer. 

The overriding fear of the Commission is that even the slightest concession to the UK will give encouragement to other disenchanted members of the EU27 resulting in the Commissioners eventually being ejected from the trough at which they gorge at the expense of the peoples of Europe. 

[welovesundaysatspace]

12 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

Best for the club would be an orderly exit and continued good relations with the UK.

Not if it breaks up the single market and four freedoms and offer a non-member better terms than a member. Obviously. 

 

12 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

I don't recall saying a no deal would hurt.

You used the term “punish”. That implies a no deal would hurt. 

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, aright said:

the annexation of Northern Ireland.

Are you now trying to compare Northern Ireland situation to annexation of Crimea? Hmm.. I wonder why.

[kwilco]

2 hours ago, kwilco said:

Smoke and mirrors?

Sunderland voted for this....

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/oct/04/nissan-becomes-latest-manufacturer-to-warn-against-hard-brexit

 

EVERY car company has complained about Brexit.....It ain't rocket science, it is plain and simple manufacturing.......and how it will be suspened or shifted.

Even the Sunderland MP is worried!

[CG1 Blue]

10 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

Not if it breaks up the single market and four freedoms and offer a non-member better terms than a member. Obviously. 

 

You used the term “punish”. That implies a no deal would hurt. 

Why would the EU be so worried about the single market breaking up?  If the EU and single market are so good, then surely no other country would be tempted to leave?

 

Tell me which other countries are in the UK's position, i.e. huge net contributor, huge trade deficit, top 5/6 economy, G7 member, major security partner etc. etc., and therefore could demand a deal to match the UK's deal upon leaving the EU?

 

And 'punish' is the ambition, not the reality.

[nauseus]

13 minutes ago, kwilco said:

Even the Sunderland MP is worried!

Not surprised. One of many remainer Labour MPs voted in by a majority leave constituency!  

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

Why would the EU be so worried about the single market breaking up?  If the EU and single market are so good, then surely no other country would be tempted to leave?

 

Tell me which other countries are in the UK's position, i.e. huge net contributor, huge trade deficit, top 5/6 economy, G7 member, major security partner etc. etc., and therefore could demand a deal to match the UK's deal upon leaving the EU?

 

And 'punish' is the ambition, not the reality.

EU is not going to break up. UK had her little moment in time of the history of EU, and now she decided to move on. 

 

If mighty UK falls due her internal fighting, that's UK's own issue. Not EU's issue. 

 

Obviously UK's fall will show to the rest of the world, that it's better to be inside of an union than outside. Don't worry, your best friend USA is doing exactly same. You'll have a good time together, I'm sure.

[Srikcir]

2 minutes ago, oilinki said:

You'll have a good time together, I'm sure.

Canada had to agree that as part of its trade deal with the US under USMCA that it had to have US approval of any trade agreement with the China. Imagine Trump wanting the same kind of sovereign concession from the UK - UK might as well be back in the EU.

[welovesundaysatspace]

23 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

Why would the EU be so worried about the single market breaking up?

That’s what the U.K. is asking for. The single market comes as a package; the UK wants to break up the package into some customized deal. A bit like those people argueing with the clerk when there’s a promotion. Not sure what the EU should be worried about though. 

 

23 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

  If the EU and single market are so good, then surely no other country would be tempted to leave?

As long as you keep the membership attractive, of course. That’s why the EU won’t let you cherry-pick. 

 

23 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

Tell me which other countries are in the UK's position, i.e. huge net contributor, huge trade deficit, top 5/6 economy, G7 member, major security partner etc. etc., and therefore could demand a deal to match the UK's deal upon leaving the EU?

Everyone can demand a deal. But you won’t get one that makes the club membership less attractive. 

 

 

[CG1 Blue]

42 minutes ago, Srikcir said:

Canada had to agree that as part of its trade deal with the US under USMCA that it had to have US approval of any trade agreement with the China. Imagine Trump wanting the same kind of sovereign concession from the UK - UK might as well be back in the EU.

Is your comment supposed to be pro-Remain? EU member states cannot have bilateral trade agreements with ANY countries!

[CG1 Blue]

27 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

That’s what the U.K. is asking for. The single market comes as a package; the UK wants to break up the package into some customized deal. A bit like those people argueing with the clerk when there’s a promotion. Not sure what the EU should be worried about though. 

 

As long as you keep the membership attractive, of course. That’s why the EU won’t let you cherry-pick. 

 

Everyone can demand a deal. But you won’t get one that makes the club membership less attractive. 

 

 

Why would club membership be less attractive for Finland, Belgium, Romania, Bulgaria, in fact for any other member state if the UK had an orderly exit and a strong ongoing partnership with the EU? Why does that make the EU less attractive for other members?

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

Is your comment supposed to be pro-Remain? EU member states cannot have bilateral trade agreements with ANY countries!

Someday, hopefully, you'll understand that there is no Brexit game. There are facts and rules how we have agreed to handle things between each parties.

 

It doesn't matter, who wins a stupid argument with the most clever answer. What matters is the wellbeing of the people. It's simple as that.