UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[welovesundaysatspace]

39 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Yes, we've already seen how free member states are to vote against new treaties.

Correct. They are free to do that. 

 

39 minutes ago, nauseus said:

It is even more difficult to actually leave with any kind of dignity, as we see now.

Nonsense. Just pull article 50. Couldn’t be easier. 

 

 

[My Thai Life]

2 hours ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

Why should anyone do your homework? When you spread accusations, it’s your responsibility to prove it. 

Its not my homework, it's yours. I have wasted too much time on this forum providing well researched and well written answers to people who ignore them or misconstrue them, and who reply with insults or one liners. There is ample evidence for what I have said  from multiple souces - it is not an obscure theory. If you are unable to use google or Amazon it's your problem. The quotes I have already provided are sufficient evidence for anyone with an open mind.

 

As for article 50 guaranteeing reversibility - how naive are you? The EU is deceitfully and deliberately moving towards a superstate by a series of steps which combine to make it in practical terms irreversible. It has been doing this for 70 years as per my quotes from Monnet and Juncker - and numerous quotes from other posters. The UK joined a Common Market, which is an excellent idea, though imperfectly implemented; most of the rest of what the EU is doing would be better done by other pan-European agencies or just not done at all.

Edited September 23, 2018 by My Thai Life

[aright]

7 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

Its not my homework, it's yours. I have wasted too much time on this forum providing well researched and well written answers to people who ignore them or misconstrue them, and who reply with insults or one liners. There is ample evidence for what I have said  from multiple souces - it is not an obscure theory. If you are unable to use google or Amazon it's your problem. The quotes I have already provided are sufficient evidence for anyone with an open mind.

 

As for article 50 guaranteeing reversibility - how naive are you? The EU is deceitfully and deliberately moving towards a superstate by a series of steps which combine to make it in practical terms irreversible. It has been doing this for 70 years as per my quotes from Monnet and Juncker - and numerous quotes from other posters. The UK joined a Common Market, which is an excellent idea, though imperfectly implemented; most of the rest of what the EU is doing would be better done by other pan-European agencies or just not done at all.

 

The idea at the heart of our democracy is not complicated. At a general election, the voters choose who makes the laws that govern our lives. If governments fail to live up to their promises, the electorate throw them out. This precious right may sound simple, but it took hundreds of years of struggle and sacrifice to secure. It is up to us to keep it intact for future generations – and we must never let our vigilance slip.

The ECJ now routinely interferes in the most fundamental duties of an elected government

It has become increasingly clear that we can guarantee that future far better if we leave the European Union.  If a government cannot keep its promises because of its membership of an unelected, unaccountable outside organisation, the connection between the people and their laws is broken. The whole basis of our democracy is undermined.

 In the EU, the unelected European Commission creates laws for us and our parliament can only rubber-stamp them. The whole system is overseen by the Court of Justice of the European Union (ECJ) in Luxembourg, which has ultimate jurisdiction over our parliament and law courts.

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/22/the-eus-court-is-picking-apart-our-laws/

[welovesundaysatspace]

10 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

Its not my homework, it's yours.

Nope, when you throw out an accusation it’s your job to provide evidence proving it. Not the other way round. 

 

10 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

I have wasted too much time on this forum providing well researched and well written answers to people who ignore them or misconstrue them, and who reply with insults or one liners. There is ample evidence for what I have said  from multiple souces - it is not an obscure theory. If you are unable to use google or Amazon it's your problem. The quotes I have already provided are sufficient evidence for anyone with an open mind.

None of what you posted proves your claim that the EU has been lying to its people. I have asked you like 4-5 times now and you still fail to provide any evidence for your claims. 

 

10 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

As for article 50 guaranteeing reversibility - how naive are you?

I am not naive. You pull article 50 and you are out. That’s a fact. 

 

10 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

The EU is deceitfully and deliberately moving towards a superstate by a series of steps which combine to make it in practical terms irreversible.

All those decisions were and are being made by the member states themselves. If a member state doesn’t like increased integration, it can vote against it. If you as a citizen don’t like it, you can vote for a party that offers to leave the EU. No deceit there at all. A very democratic process. 

 

 

[aright]

3 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

 

All those decisions were and are being made by the member states themselves. If a member state doesn’t like increased integration, it can vote against it. If you as a citizen don’t like it, you can vote for a party that offers to leave the EU. No deceit there at all. A very democratic process. 

 

 

Can you tell me at what election I voted for Martin Selmayr or  an alternative candidate as Secretary General of the European Commission?

 

[welovesundaysatspace]

45 minutes ago, aright said:

 

 In the EU, the unelected European Commission creates laws for us and our parliament can only rubber-stamp them.

Stop spreading such lies. Truth is:

 

1. The EU Commission proposes a law. The EU Commission is made up of 28 commissioners who are proposed by democratically elected national governments and approved by the European Parliament which is also democratically elected. 

 

2. The EU Council amends and negotiated with parliament. The EU Council is made up of democratically elected ministers from the governments of the member states. The EU Parliament is made up of directly elected MEPs representing the people of the member states. Once Council and Parliament reach an agreement, the proposed law is passed. 

 

3. You can always vote for a new government that promises you to take different positions or to leave the EU completely. 

 

 

What‘s next; do you wanna tell us the tax rates in your country are undemocratic because no one asked you and they were being introduced under an unelected prime minister (because you couldn’t vote for that PM either)?

 

 

 

Edited September 23, 2018 by welovesundaysatspace

[welovesundaysatspace]

5 minutes ago, aright said:

Can you tell me at what election I voted for Martin Selmayr or  an alternative candidate as Secretary General of the European Commission?

 

I didn’t say that you voted for him. At which election did you vote for Theresa May?

Edited September 23, 2018 by welovesundaysatspace

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, oilinki said:

You clearly copied the quotes from one source and didn't rewrite the quotes yourself. Which source you used to copy the texts here?

 

Yes, I'm pushing this to see what sources you are actually using. If you quote text from another source, please show us the source as well. In that way we can also see the credibility of the source.

 

Go, get the source. 

Mustard too?

[aright]

Just now, welovesundaysatspace said:

I didn’t say that you voted for him. At which election did you vote for Theresa May?

I didn’t say that you voted for him

I know, I didn't say you did,  and that's the problem no one in the EU voted for him.

At which election did you vote for Theresa May?

At the last election knowing full well if my party gained the majority of MP's she would be PM.

 

[aright]

3 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Mustard too?

Bad choice of words son.

Mustard...………………..Pants on fire.

[Chomper Higgot]

 

50 minutes ago, aright said:

 

The idea at the heart of our democracy is not complicated. At a general election, the voters choose who makes the laws that govern our lives. If governments fail to live up to their promises, the electorate throw them out. This precious right may sound simple, but it took hundreds of years of struggle and sacrifice to secure. It is up to us to keep it intact for future generations – and we must never let our vigilance slip.

The ECJ now routinely interferes in the most fundamental duties of an elected government

It has become increasingly clear that we can guarantee that future far better if we leave the European Union.  If a government cannot keep its promises because of its membership of an unelected, unaccountable outside organisation, the connection between the people and their laws is broken. The whole basis of our democracy is undermined.

 In the EU, the unelected European Commission creates laws for us and our parliament can only rubber-stamp them. The whole system is overseen by the Court of Justice of the European Union (ECJ) in Luxembourg, which has ultimate jurisdiction over our parliament and law courts.

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/22/the-eus-court-is-picking-apart-our-laws/

“It has become increasingly clear that we can guarantee that future far better if we leave the European Union.“

 

Not for those of us living in a reality based time/space domain it hasn’t.

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Mustard too?

I smell a ruskie enforced troll powering you @nauseus

[nauseus]

5 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

Stop spreading such lies. Truth is:

 

1. The EU Commission proposes a law. The EU Commission is made up of 28 commissioners who are proposed by democratically elected national governments and approved by the European Parliament which is also democratically elected. 

 

2. The EU Council amends and negotiated with parliament. The EU Council is made up of democratically elected ministers from the governments of the member states. The EU Parliament is made up of directly elected MEPs representing the people of the member states. Once Council and Parliament reach an agreement, the proposed law is passed. 

 

3. You can always vote for a new government that promises you to take different positions or to leave the EU completely. 

 

 

 

1. Commissioners are appointed, this is now done via QMV, which means UK preferences can be ignored. Ask Cameron.

 

2. The EU Parliament MEPs are indeed elected in regions of members states but the Parliament is dominated by the majority groups, particularly the EPP. The EP routinely carries through EC proposed laws and regulations without any contest. 

 

3. Good on (3). We did that already.

 

The notion of EU democracy is just a fallacy.

[nauseus]

2 minutes ago, oilinki said:

I smell a ruskie enforced troll powering you @nauseus

You seem to see the Russians everywhere. 

[Guest]

Just now, nauseus said:

You seem to see the Russians everywhere. 

So why don't you show your sources, which would clear your association with the ruskies?

 

You can't?

[Chomper Higgot]

1 minute ago, nauseus said:

1. Commissioners are appointed, this is now done via QMV, which means UK preferences can be ignored. Ask Cameron.

 

2. The EU Parliament MEPs are indeed elected in regions of members states but the Parliament is dominated by the majority groups, particularly the EPP. The EP routinely carries through EC proposed laws and regulations without any contest. 

 

3. Good on (3). We did that already.

 

The notion of EU democracy is just a fallacy.

Member states each take part in the promulgation of EU laws, each have a sovereign right of veto and each pass agreed EU laws through their own respective parliaments.

 

When was the last time you voted for a member of the civil service?

[My Thai Life]

20 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

None of what you posted proves your claim that the EU has been lying to its people. I have asked you like 4-5 times now and you still fail to provide any evidence for your claims. 

I have posted quotes which prove it from Monnet and Juncker like 4 or 5 times now. They are not my claims - they are Juncker's and Monnet's claims. I'm just the messenger.

 

21 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

I am not naive. You pull article 50 and you are out. That’s a fact. 

Well that looks like a very naive comment to me - the UK is the first to pull it, aren't we? But "pull A50 and you are out" is clearly naive. The EU is trying to push us back in, that's a fact unless you haven't read any news in the last 2 years. It's a fact that there is an A50 which the UK is the first to test.  I have a feeeling that we won't be the last.

 

25 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

All those decisions were and are being made by the member states themselves. If a member state doesn’t like increased integration, it can vote against it. If you as a citizen don’t like it, you can vote for a party that offers to leave the EU. No deceit there at all. A very democratic process. 

If that's what you believe then you clearly haven't digested the quotes from Monnet and Juncker that I have made.

 

29 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

Nope, when you throw out an accusation it’s your job to provide evidence proving it. Not the other way round.

I have provided the evidence, like 4 or 5 times already, with quotes from Monnet and Juncker - your glorious leaders. If I were to give you a list of books to read, would you open your mind and buy them and read them? My guess is "no". Just use google or Amazon if you are that interested. 

[aright]

10 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

 

“It has become increasingly clear that we can guarantee that future far better if we leave the European Union.“

 

Not for those of us living in a reality based time/space domain it hasn’t.

The world of reality has it's limits, the world of imagination is boundless. 

[aright]

8 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Member states each take part in the promulgation of EU laws, each have a sovereign right of veto and each pass agreed EU laws through their own respective parliaments.

 

When was the last time you voted for a member of the civil service?

I have never voted for a member of the civil service ……...they don't propose or approve legislation do they? 

[My Thai Life]

30 minutes ago, aright said:

Can you tell me at what election I voted for Martin Selmayr or  an alternative candidate as Secretary General of the European Commission?

Selmayrgate. An election with only one voter - Juncker. Absolutely appalling. Another coup for the EU cabal acting in stealth according to the Monnet playbook:

 

"Selmayr's stealth promotion as European Commission secretary-general was described on Tuesday (4 September) by European ombudsman, Emily O'Reilly, as a case of maladministration following her review of thousands of pages of commission internal documents."

 

from euobserver.

[aright]

1 minute ago, My Thai Life said:

Selmayrgate. An election with only one voter - Juncker. Absolutely appalling. Another coup for the EU cabal acting in stealth according to the Monnet playbook:

 

"Selmayr's stealth promotion as European Commission secretary-general was described on Tuesday (4 September) by European ombudsman, Emily O'Reilly, as a case of maladministration following her review of thousands of pages of commission internal documents."

 

from euobserver.

Well spotted. The next question is :- "How do we get rid of him"  

erm……….can't find a process or procedure for that. Can anyone help?

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

Selmayrgate. An election with only one voter - Juncker. Absolutely appalling. Another coup for the EU cabal acting in stealth according to the Monnet playbook:

 

"Selmayr's stealth promotion as European Commission secretary-general was described on Tuesday (4 September) by European ombudsman, Emily O'Reilly, as a case of maladministration following her review of thousands of pages of commission internal documents."

 

from euobserver.

Yet another post without a link to the original content. Are you folks ashamed what sources are you using? Alt-left web must be full of these quotes, which might be real or simply invented by the alt-left propaganda machine.

[Chomper Higgot]

24 minutes ago, aright said:

The world of reality has it's limits, the world of imagination is boundless. 

As your imagined hopes for future trade deals demonstrates.

[ivor bigun]

As your imagined hopes for future trade deals demonstrates.

So says the man who is always confused and whose glass is always half empty.

Sent from my SM-A720F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[melvinmelvin]

I see in some newspapers that TM is planning another snap election in November.

Furthermore that she intends to step down come summer.

 

If she survives the party conf and of the planning goes ahead,

would be interesting to see if voters will dish out another mandate to her and the tories.

 

[Chomper Higgot]

10 hours ago, ivor bigun said:

So says the man who is always confused and whose glass is always half empty.

Sent from my SM-A720F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

I get confused by Brexiteers and illiberal nonsense.

 

Rest assured Ivor, my cup runneth over.

 

[Chomper Higgot]

37 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

I see in some newspapers that TM is planning another snap election in November.

Furthermore that she intends to step down come summer.

 

If she survives the party conf and of the planning goes ahead,

would be interesting to see if voters will dish out another mandate to her and the tories.

 

The voters didn’t ‘dish out a mandate’ to TM and the Tories.

 

The Tories scraped through the election and rely upon backup from Ulster Unionist paid for with Taxpayer’s money.

 

[BwindiBoy]

10 hours ago, oilinki said:

Yet another post without a link to the original content. Are you folks ashamed what sources are you using? Alt-left web must be full of these quotes, which might be real or simply invented by the alt-left propaganda machine.

<deleted>, you'll be wanting MTL to wipe your arse next!

[welovesundaysatspace]

11 hours ago, My Thai Life said:

I have posted quotes which prove it from Monnet and Juncker like 4 or 5 times now. They are not my claims - they are Juncker's and Monnet's claims. I'm just the messenger.

Those are interesting quotes, but you haven’t provided any evidence to prove your accusation that the EU has been continuously lying to Europeans. What are those lies? What‘s the evidence proving they are in fact false statements (or at least highly inaccurate) intending to deceive the electorate?

 

Macron labelled the leave campaign as liars. That’s factually true; there are lists with what the false statements are. Red bus, anyone? 

 

You countered that the EU has been doing the same, but you fail to provide evidence for your claim. What’s the EU‘s red bus? 

 

I am pretty sure Macron could find some nice quotes from dead British leaders if he would dig deep enough. But he’s not argueing the leave campaign are liars because a dead guy said A, B and C some 60 years ago. 

 

Quote

But "pull A50 and you are out" is clearly naive.

No. It’s not. 

 

Quote

The EU is trying to push us back in

No. It’s not. 

 

Where in the EU regulations does it provide any way to push back a member state’s exit after it has pulled article 50? There isn’t any. 

 

Quote

, that's a fact unless you haven't read any news in the last 2 years.

“the last 2 years” have been about the U.K. wanting to negotiate future (post-leave) relationships with the EU. Not about the leave. The leave cannot be undone or pushed back by the EU. The regulations do not provide any way to do so. 

 

Quote

 

If that's what you believe then you clearly haven't digested the quotes from Monnet and Juncker that I have made.

It’s not what I believe. It’s the reality. I prefer to stick to facts rather than what a dead guy mumbled 60 years ago. 

 

Quote

If I were to give you a list of books to read, would you open your mind and buy them and read them?

The academically correct way would be: You make your statement. Then you provide a reference to the author, title and page in a publication where the evidence proving your statement can be found. That’s what i suggested earlier. 

 

So please tell us what statements made by the EU are lies, and where we can find the evidence proving that it is in fact a lie. 

Edited September 24, 2018 by welovesundaysatspace

[melvinmelvin]

1 hour ago, Chomper Higgot said:

The voters didn’t ‘dish out a mandate’ to TM and the Tories.

 

The Tories scraped through the election and rely upon backup from Ulster Unionist paid for with Taxpayer’s money.

 

whatever suits you,

she ended up with votes and keeping job and leeway to continue the "Brexit means Brexit" Play.

I tend to call that a mandate.

 

Curious to see if there will be a repeat in November, that is provided she survives the Tory conf.