UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[mommysboy]

3 hours ago, aright said:

What do you mean by political spectrum and political economy and turbo charged capitalism?

spectrum - range of political beliefs and creeds as denoted by party colours.

 

political economy- how economics relates to law, custom and government- what weight we give to economic viewpoints relative to other values.  This is a fundamental difference between the beliefs of the EU and the UK.  Thus the UK simply can't understand why the EU won't strike a free trade deal since it is seen purely in economic terms.

 

turbo charged capitalism- not just neo liberalism but also now the financialization of many aspects of life, an example being a house no longer being a home but a financial instrument.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, CG1 Blue said:

I really don't think it's wise to state things like this as fact:

 

"the people who voted leave will be worse affected by it" and

"the elderly who will suffer from a lack of care staff" and

"the pensioners who will see the value of their pensions go down" "older people who were relying on the value of their house to see them through old age" and

"the skilled working class who will see their jobs in manufacturing evaporate." 

 

You don't if any of this is true.  Nobody does!

 

I do agree the debate has split families etc., and that the Scottish Indy ref is back on the table. Those things are a pity.  I think they can be healed though, after a successful Brexit (which I realise is also not factual!)

The elderly, the pensioners, the people who voted leave are all going to be dead rather soon.

 

Should the rest of UK people listen to these grumpy folks, who made an effort to show their middle finger for the last time?

[kwilco]

...and the  Bwrecksit government themselves have joined the fear mongers...

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/24/uk-eu-flights-would-cease-immediately-in-event-of-no-deal-brexit?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

 

I suppose if you can't travel to any other countries, you could argue that UK was truly independant

[kwilco]

7 hours ago, aright said:

“Europe’s nations should be guided towards the super-state without their people understanding what is happening. This can be accomplished by successive steps, each disguised as having an economic purpose, but which will eventually lead to federation.” – Jean Monnet, one of the founders of the EU, 1952.

 

This is a false quote, one of the Brexit falsehoods commonly held to be true.

Edited September 24, 2018 by kwilco

[Guest]

1 hour ago, kwilco said:

This is a false quote, one of the Brexit falsehoods commonly held to be true.

Yet another one of these quotations, alt-ruskie folks like to show, without providing a source for their quotes. This happens far too often nowdays. 

 

 

[Guest]

9 hours ago, aright said:

 

And there was me thinking Brexit is all about democracy and freedom, confidence in our soulful nation to take back responsibility for our selves and to determine our future . Apparently I was wrong it's all about morality. Problem is morality is like art, you have to draw the line somewhere otherwise you pervert reality. 

 

 

How much you Alt-ruskies want democracy to be part of western society?

Edited September 24, 2018 by Guest

[Guest]

9 hours ago, aright said:

 

And there was me thinking Brexit is all about democracy and freedom, confidence in our soulful nation to take back responsibility for our selves and to determine our future . Apparently I was wrong it's all about morality. Problem is morality is like art, you have to draw the line somewhere otherwise you pervert reality. 

Do learn from this. This is what Russian propaganda looks like. 

 

Read each sentence, understand each word. This is exactly how Russia wishes to play chess with us.

[Guest]

6 hours ago, My Thai Life said:

 agree to disagree with you. We don't need to be hostile. 

Why would you identify yourself as  childld

[KiChakayan]

6 hours ago, mommysboy said:

spectrum - range of political beliefs and creeds as denoted by party colours.

 

political economy- how economics relates to law, custom and government- what weight we give to economic viewpoints relative to other values.  This is a fundamental difference between the beliefs of the EU and the UK.  Thus the UK simply can't understand why the EU won't strike a free trade deal since it is seen purely in economic terms.

 

turbo charged capitalism- not just neo liberalism but also now the financialization of many aspects of life, an example being a house no longer being a home but a financial instrument.

I still hope for a Germany, Benelux and France Federation to become a reality. This would require the French got their economy and debt under control. Maybe if Macron can get a second term; but I doubt it, the French just lack the discipline. 

Having the "European Federation" sitting at the UN would look so good. Neither the Russians nor the Brits would like it though.

[nauseus]

2 hours ago, KiChakayan said:

I still hope for a Germany, Benelux and France Federation to become a reality. This would require the French got their economy and debt under control. Maybe if Macron can get a second term; but I doubt it, the French just lack the discipline. 

Having the "European Federation" sitting at the UN would look so good. Neither the Russians nor the Brits would like it though.

Well I hate to burst your bubble but:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/emmanuel-macron-french-president-lowest-approval-rating-a8551356.html

[Srikcir]

4 hours ago, kwilco said:

...and the  Bwrecksit government themselves have joined the fear mongers...

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/24/uk-eu-flights-would-cease-immediately-in-event-of-no-deal-brexit?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

 

I suppose if you can't travel to any other countries, you could argue that UK was truly independant

For source diversity I add:

"The UK would no longer be governed by the regulations of the European Aviation Safety Agency, which deal with all sorts of things like maintenance and common standards.

The UK Civil Aviation Authority could, in theory, take on all the same rules, and hire lots of new staff to implement and oversee them, but it would also have to convince other international regulators to recognise it - another time-consuming process."

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-45019603

[KiChakayan]

22 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Well I hate to burst your bubble but:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/emmanuel-macron-french-president-lowest-approval-rating-a8551356.html

I wouldn't mind if his rating was even lower as this would show that he is implementing the required tough measures. Reforms that have been made in Germany, 20 years ago, and 30 years ago in UK.

[sandyf]

23 hours ago, tebee said:

 

Brexit was a simple, but wrong answer, to UK's complex problems. Ergo people that support it have poor logical analysis skills. We have put these people in charge of our govt. What do you expect?

I would have expected to remain in the EU, but realistically that ship has sailed.

Even if by some chance there was another referendum resulting in a remain vote, too much damage for things to ever be the same again.

[sandyf]

10 hours ago, My Thai Life said:

 

Juncker  of the Lisbon treaty: “Of course there will be transfers of sovereignty. But would I be intelligent to draw the attention of public opinion to this fact?”

 

The future path of the EEC/EU was laid out at the leaders meeting in Dec 1969 and the UK parliament would have been fully aware of that path when they voted to join the "Community" on 28th Oct 1971.

Obviously Heath and Junker were on the same page, just that no one has brought out a quote by Heath.

Those that want to hang the EU out to dry should be looking a lot closer to home.

 

Just because a course of action is not laid out in detail does not make it the wrong course of action.

[tebee]

14 minutes ago, sandyf said:

I would have expected to remain in the EU, but realistically that ship has sailed.

Even if by some chance there was another referendum resulting in a remain vote, too much damage for things to ever be the same again.

So we can't leave because it would wreck the economy and cause chaos.

 

We can't stay because some people would be badly butt hurt. 

 

What do we do ?

 

My prefered solution is that we should say we are leaving, but postpone actually doing so until the people that want to leave can come up with a detailed solution that does not wreck aforesaid economy  and has the support of at least half the country ( finding one that has the support of at least half the people who want to leave would be a good start) 

[aright]

4 hours ago, nauseus said:

Well I hate to burst your bubble but:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/emmanuel-macron-french-president-lowest-approval-rating-a8551356.html

I blame the Russians or "YA obvinyayu Russkikh" as we say in downtown Fokino.

Edited September 25, 2018 by aright

[aright]

2 hours ago, sandyf said:

The future path of the EEC/EU was laid out at the leaders meeting in Dec 1969 and the UK parliament would have been fully aware of that path when they voted to join the "Community" on 28th Oct 1971.

Obviously Heath and Junker were on the same page, just that no one has brought out a quote by Heath.

Those that want to hang the EU out to dry should be looking a lot closer to home.

 

Just because a course of action is not laid out in detail does not make it the wrong course of action.

Sometimes the situation is only a problem because it is looked at in a certain way. Looked at in another way, the right course of action may be so obvious that the problem no longer exists.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, tebee said:

So we can't leave because it would wreck the economy and cause chaos.

 

We can't stay because some people would be badly butt hurt. 

 

What do we do ?

 

My prefered solution is that we should say we are leaving, but postpone actually doing so until the people that want to leave can come up with a detailed solution that does not wreck aforesaid economy  and has the support of at least half the country ( finding one that has the support of at least half the people who want to leave would be a good start) 

The problem with that plan is that it's not fair for the EU. 

 

Having a member who is hanging at a door means that EU can't really go forward towards future.

 

It's best if we get this rather sad episode of European history over with. That way both sides can start creating a future for each of us. 

[transam]

3 minutes ago, oilinki said:

The problem with that plan is that it's not fair for the EU. 

 

Having a member who is hanging at a door means that EU can't really go forward towards future.

 

It's best if we get this rather sad episode of European history over with. That way both sides can start creating a future for each of us. 

But where I come from I probably don't think like you and visa versa...Way back SOE had huge problems sorting EEU's out to deal with the aggressor and not local folk..

[nauseus]

4 hours ago, sandyf said:

The future path of the EEC/EU was laid out at the leaders meeting in Dec 1969 and the UK parliament would have been fully aware of that path when they voted to join the "Community" on 28th Oct 1971.

Obviously Heath and Junker were on the same page, just that no one has brought out a quote by Heath.

Those that want to hang the EU out to dry should be looking a lot closer to home.

 

Just because a course of action is not laid out in detail does not make it the wrong course of action.

This quote from Heath has been highlighted several times on various TV Brexit forums:

 

He said: “There are some in this country who fear that, in going into Europe, we shall in some way sacrifice independence and sovereignty. These fears, I need hardly say, are completely unjustified.”

 

Once source is: https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/columnists/nelson-mccausland/the-vote-to-join-europe-in-1975-was-based-on-a-lie-but-at-last-were-getting-our-sovereignty-back-36219265.html

 

But there are many. 

[sandyf]

18 minutes ago, nauseus said:

This quote from Heath has been highlighted several times on various TV Brexit forums:

 

He said: “There are some in this country who fear that, in going into Europe, we shall in some way sacrifice independence and sovereignty. These fears, I need hardly say, are completely unjustified.”

 

Once source is: https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/columnists/nelson-mccausland/the-vote-to-join-europe-in-1975-was-based-on-a-lie-but-at-last-were-getting-our-sovereignty-back-36219265.html

 

But there are many. 

Not quite the same context, but as I said, keep looking closer to home.

[CG1 Blue]

11 hours ago, kwilco said:

...and the  Bwrecksit government themselves have joined the fear mongers...

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/24/uk-eu-flights-would-cease-immediately-in-event-of-no-deal-brexit?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

 

I suppose if you can't travel to any other countries, you could argue that UK was truly independant

You've used the (pro-Remain) Guardian version of the story. The government are laying out all the things that we need to make arrangements for if there is no deal. It's called preparation. The alternative would be to ignore all the things we need to prepare for and just hope for the best.

 

I'm sure you don't believe that planes would stop flying in UK airspace, with all the knock-on chaos that would cause for European and global flights.

[Guest]

This is funny. How Twitter users reacts to the lies of one Brexiter. Him having a rather eastern name is probably just a coincidence. 

 

 

[welovesundaysatspace]

49 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

The government are laying out all the things that we need to make arrangements for if there is no deal. It's called preparation. 

The Brexiteers calls it scaremongering. 

[Guest]

48 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

You've used the (pro-Remain) Guardian version of the story. The government are laying out all the things that we need to make arrangements for if there is no deal. It's called preparation. The alternative would be to ignore all the things we need to prepare for and just hope for the best.

 

I'm sure you don't believe that planes would stop flying in UK airspace, with all the knock-on chaos that would cause for European and global flights.

UK still have to get a deal, so that her planes can fly to the European as well as other air spaces.

 

No deal is better than bad deal, was the phrase used by some.

[tebee]

On 9/24/2018 at 9:56 AM, tebee said:

They don't know what they are doing and have no idea how to proceed.

 

They are both clueless and incompetent. 

 

Brexit was a simple, but wrong answer, to UK's complex problems. Ergo people that support it have poor logical analysis skills. We have put these people in charge of our govt. What do you expect?

 ...and if you want further proof that they are either exceeding stupid or confirmed liers 

 

David Allen Green pointed out this :- 

 

 

So Boris Johnson and David Davis say that post-Brexit UK can have individual trade deals with EU members...

 

...but campaigned for UK to leave the EU because EU members could not have individual trade deals with non-EU countries.

 

The idiocy is painful.

 

So are they lying or  just stupid ?

[CG1 Blue]

1 hour ago, oilinki said:

UK still have to get a deal, so that her planes can fly to the European as well as other air spaces.

 

No deal is better than bad deal, was the phrase used by some.

This doesn't just affect UK planes though. Of course they'll make arrangements to keep planes flying. It would be naïve to think otherwise.

[CG1 Blue]

43 minutes ago, tebee said:

 ...and if you want further proof that they are either exceeding stupid or confirmed liers 

 

David Allen Green pointed out this :- 

 

 

So Boris Johnson and David Davis say that post-Brexit UK can have individual trade deals with EU members...

 

...but campaigned for UK to leave the EU because EU members could not have individual trade deals with non-EU countries.

 

The idiocy is painful.

 

So are they lying or  just stupid ?

Do you have any proof that BJ and DD actually said this though?  I can't find anything.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

This doesn't just affect UK planes though. Of course they'll make arrangements to keep planes flying. It would be naïve to think otherwise.

It does affect UK air industry very much. That's why there must be an agreement, a deal, to continue sharing the airspace.

 

It would be naive to think that there would not be a deal, before existing deals become invalid on March 2019.

[CG1 Blue]

8 minutes ago, oilinki said:

It does affect UK air industry very much. That's why there must be an agreement, a deal, to continue sharing the airspace.

 

It would be naive to think that there would not be a deal, before existing deals become invalid on March 2019.

I think we are both saying the same thing. It affects the UK air industry, and the Europe/global air industry, so they will make arrangements before the deadline.