UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[mommysboy]

1 hour ago, bristolboy said:

The only obstacle that Brexit will pose for financial houses in the EU is that it will make investing in the UK and clearing sterling denominated financial instruments. A small loss compared to restricted access to the

EU marketplace. Especially given the huge amount of income that UK firms now earn from access to this market. Whereas EU financial houses involvement in UK financial instruments is minor.

It really won't dent the City much.  Most of the trade done in London is wholesale.  All it means is that offices will be set up in the EU, and a few buttons pressed there. London will still be the major financial powerhouse and will actually be freed to expand in other areas.  

 

EU has already conceded that it is rather dependent on London.  This is one area where UK holds the upper hand.  It's unthinkable that some equivalence deal won't be struck.

[nauseus]

23 hours ago, aright said:

Yes!

Salary £246000 pa

Residential Allowance £37000

Expense Allowance £1100 per month

Pension £52000 pa from age 65 for life.

He's really worth it isn't he. 

Yes, a shining example of famous EU frugality. But I suspect his expenses are a tad more than that!

[david555]

9 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Yes, a shining example of famous EU frugality. But I suspect his expenses are a tad more than that!

Do not get jealous …….. your Farage is also in good doing paid by the E.U . he hate so much , that  say something of the type of person he is…..not ?

[aright]

18 minutes ago, david555 said:

Do not get jealous …….. your Farage is also in good doing paid by the E.U . he hate so much  say something of the type of person he is…..not ?

Nigel Farage has been instrumental in re-democratizing the UK by initially leading the movement to leave the UK.

 

Jean Claude-Juncker was forced to resign as Prime Minister of Luxembourg after a lurid spy scandal, and he refused to take responsibility for Luxembourg's intelligence service carrying out illegal wire taps, kept 13000 secret files on people and ran a fictional counter terror operation as a front to help a Russian Oligarch pay $10 million to a Spanish spy although the Intelligence service reported directly to him...………..Apart from all that what has JCJ done for democracy.        

 

 

 

 

[welovesundaysatspace]

6 hours ago, mommysboy said:

Yes but the vote was won to leave, so this can not be turned in to another referendum. 

What law exactly forbids such referendum? 

[david555]

30 minutes ago, aright said:

Nigel Farage has been instrumental in re-democratizing the UK by initially leading the movement to leave the UK.

 

Jean Claude-Juncker was forced to resign as Prime Minister of Luxembourg after a lurid spy scandal, and he refused to take responsibility for Luxembourg's intelligence service carrying out illegal wire taps, kept 13000 secret files on people and ran a fictional counter terror operation as a front to help a Russian Oligarch pay $10 million to a Spanish spy although the Intelligence service reported directly to him...………..Apart from all that what has JCJ done for democracy.        

 

 

 

 

In U.K. such things does not happen of course....?

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/dec/05/christine-keeler-former-model-at-heart-of-profumo-affair-dies

 

Christine Keeler, former model at heart of Profumo affair, dies at 75

Showgirl’s affairs with Russian diplomat and British MP John Profumo caused one of UK’s biggest scandals of 20th century

[welovesundaysatspace]

46 minutes ago, aright said:

Jean Claude-Juncker was forced to resign as Prime Minister of Luxembourg after a lurid spy scandal, and he refused to take responsibility for Luxembourg's intelligence service carrying out illegal wire taps, kept 13000 secret files on people

Sounds like peanuts compared to the U.K. spying on each and all of us. 

[aright]

7 minutes ago, david555 said:

In U.K. such things does not happen of course....?

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/dec/05/christine-keeler-former-model-at-heart-of-profumo-affair-dies

 

Christine Keeler, former model at heart of Profumo affair, dies at 75

Showgirl’s affairs with Russian diplomat and British MP John Profumo caused one of UK’s biggest scandals of 20th century

You are obviously outside your comfort zone. You start by making a comparison between the reputation of Farage and JCJ when I answer that there are far more dark clouds over JCJ's head than NF you wander aimlessly into Profumo/Keeler history which happened 45 years ago.

The question remains what has JCJ done for democracy?         

[aright]

2 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

Sounds like peanuts compared to the U.K. spying on each and all of us. 

link?

[welovesundaysatspace]

32 minutes ago, aright said:

link?

GCHQ.gov.uk

[aright]

4 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

GCHQ.gov.uk

Couldn't find anything. Since you obviously have read the article can you give me the specific article?

[david555]

11 minutes ago, aright said:

Couldn't find anything. Since you obviously have read the article can you give me the specific article?

if you do not want to find you don't find …….

 but I found it easy

https://www.gchq.gov.uk/what-we-do

[BwindiBoy]

On ‎8‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 10:59 AM, sirineou said:

New information has just come out that IMO demands a new vote,

 according to a CNN news report  Brexit will make Beer more expensive

More Beermongering from CNN ? 

[aright]

10 minutes ago, david555 said:

if you do not want to find you don't find …….

 but I found it easy

https://www.gchq.gov.uk/what-we-do

I found that as well but where does it reference the UK spying on each and all of us and while we are about it what has JCJ done for democracy?

 

[Bluespunk]

4 hours ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

What law exactly forbids such referendum? 

The brexiteer law, which states:

 

“we’re scared we’ll lose”

 

(Sarcasm alert)

[nauseus]

5 hours ago, david555 said:

Do not get jealous …….. your Farage is also in good doing paid by the E.U . he hate so much , that  say something of the type of person he is…..not ?

I must admit I could do with a nice EU handout - I'm sure they could lose it in the accounts.

 

But I'd need Junckers' pay. Farage doesn't get nearly enough. poor soul. 

[mommysboy]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/aug/14/british-expats-in-eu-launch-brexit-legal-challenge

 

To my mind, this might represent grounds for a second referendum.  Cheating is cheating.  

[rixalex]

The brexiteer law, which states:
 
“we’re scared we’ll lose”
 
(Sarcasm alert)

If remainers do indeed win, it might be a somewhat hollow victory, as they will have shown and proven that referendum results don't need to be respected or adhered to.

After all, remainers didn't accept the result of the 2016 referendum, so what makes anyone think Brexiteers will respect a 2nd referendum should they lose, and what position will remainers, or anyone else, be in to tell them that they have to? A pretty weak position I'd say.

Any remainer who actually thought things through long term and wasn't fixated on stopping Brexit at all cost, wouldn't be trying to overturn the 2016 result, they would be fighting for that decision to be respected and followed through on, and to give time for Brexit to be shown to be a mistake, as they believe it will be. Then when a referendum is called to rejoin the union, for one they will have solid facts to support their case rather than speculations, and for two, referendum results will still actually mean something.

Maybe though, remainers dare not allow Brexit be enacted upon, lest their domesday predictions prove unfounded and lest Britain actually make a success of itself outside the EU.... a remainer's biggest fear.

Sent from my SM-G610F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[My Thai Life]

10 hours ago, bristolboy said:

The only obstacle that Brexit will pose for financial houses in the EU is that it will make investing in the UK and clearing sterling denominated financial instruments. A small loss compared to restricted access to the

EU marketplace. Especially given the huge amount of income that UK firms now earn from access to this market. Whereas EU financial houses involvement in UK financial instruments is minor.

Mommysboy said;

"It really won't dent the City much.  Most of the trade done in London is wholesale.  All it means is that offices will be set up in the EU, and a few buttons pressed there. London will still be the major financial powerhouse and will actually be freed to expand in other areas.  

 

EU has already conceded that it is rather dependent on London.  This is one area where UK holds the upper hand.  It's unthinkable that some equivalence deal won't be struck."

 

I've spent a very substantial chunk of my career in Financial Services, in the square mile and internationally. And I have to say that the question of what the effect of brexit will be on the UK FS sector is not clear at all.

 

I haven't seen any real analysis. Possibly because it's just too difficult given the range and size and complexity of the City and its operations; possibly because the cross border issues in FS are just too complex to reduce to the soundbites that politicians love, and of course in FS they are "virtual" borders as well as tangible borders.

 

Financial Services is so diversified now, you need to be a real specialist in an increasingly narrow field to really understand what's happening now and what will happen post brexit.

 

Just look at the CDS (Credit Default Swaps) that triggered the great crash of 2008. No-one knew where the risk was until the crash, including the writers of the CDS products. And guess where the largest CDS market was - that's right, London, my home town.

 

However, I do think that, on the whole, Carney has done a pretty responsible job with his public pronouncements.

 

 

•  

[bristolboy]

4 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

10 hours ago, bristolboy said:

The only obstacle that Brexit will pose for financial houses in the EU is that it will make investing in the UK and clearing sterling denominated financial instruments. A small loss compared to restricted access to the

EU marketplace. Especially given the huge amount of income that UK firms now earn from access to this market. Whereas EU financial houses involvement in UK financial instruments is minor.

Mommysboy said;

"It really won't dent the City much.  Most of the trade done in London is wholesale.  All it means is that offices will be set up in the EU, and a few buttons pressed there. London will still be the major financial powerhouse and will actually be freed to expand in other areas.  

 

EU has already conceded that it is rather dependent on London.  This is one area where UK holds the upper hand.  It's unthinkable that some equivalence deal won't be struck."

 

I've spent a very substantial chunk of my career in Financial Services, in the square mile and internationally. And I have to say that the question of what the effect of brexit will be on the UK FS sector is not clear at all.

 

I haven't seen any real analysis. Possibly because it's just too difficult given the range and size and complexity of the City and its operations; possibly because the cross border issues in FS are just too complex to reduce to the soundbites that politicians love, and of course in FS they are "virtual" borders as well as tangible borders.

 

Financial Services is so diversified now, you need to be a real specialist in an increasingly narrow field to really understand what's happening now and what will happen post brexit.

 

Just look at the CDS (Credit Default Swaps) that triggered the great crash of 2008. No-one knew where the risk was until the crash, including the writers of the CDS products. And guess where the largest CDS market was - that's right, London, my home town.

 

However, I do think that, on the whole, Carney has done a pretty responsible job with his public pronouncements.

 

 

•  

What's so complicated? As things now stand the EU will restrict UK based firms access to the EU market. The question now is how much the access will be restricted. That depends on the outcome of negotiations. Really, it's just a question of who will be providing the services. The total amount of services should not be dependent on which firms of which nations will be providing them. 

[My Thai Life]

2 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

What's so complicated? As things now stand the EU will restrict UK based firms access to the EU market. The question now is how much the access will be restricted.

Sorry to say, but it's not simple at all. Though it might look simple to people who haven't worked in the City.

[Bluespunk]

38 minutes ago, rixalex said:

If remainers do indeed win, it might be a somewhat hollow victory, as they will have shown and proven that referendum results don't need to be respected or adhered to.

After all, remainers didn't accept the result of the 2016 referendum, so what makes anyone think Brexiteers will respect a 2nd referendum should they lose, and what position will remainers, or anyone else, be in to tell them that they have to? A pretty weak position I'd say.

Any remainer who actually thought things through long term and wasn't fixated on stopping Brexit at all cost, wouldn't be trying to overturn the 2016 result, they would be fighting for that decision to be respected and followed through on, and to give time for Brexit to be shown to be a mistake, as they believe it will be. Then when a referendum is called to rejoin the union, for one they will have solid facts to support their case rather than speculations, and for two, referendum results will still actually mean something.

Maybe though, remainers dare not allow Brexit be enacted upon, lest their domesday predictions prove unfounded and lest Britain actually make a success of itself outside the EU.... a remainer's biggest fear.

Sent from my SM-G610F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

I completely disagree with everything you say there. 

 

Decisions and choices can be changed. 

 

To deny people a vote because they may achieve a different result is unjustified. 

 

Those who believe that brexit will be a disaster have every right to campaign to stop it. To say they should just let it happen and then say I told you so is ridiculous. 

[My Thai Life]

I think we should have a referendum to determine whether a 2nd referendum is supported by a majority. As suggested by several posters, both of these referenda should require a 66% majority, and both will only be advisory.

[Mattd]

The UK AND the EU are both in an impossible no win situation regardless.

There cannot be another referendum, as again there would be no winner, should the UK decide that they do not like the terms of the exit, then there is no way that the EU would accept this, in fact, as has been pointed out, it puts the EU in a far better position. Should the UK decide that they no longer want to leave the EU, do people seriously believe that the EU would just say OK and everything would just go back to as was...............??

Unfortunately the Tories also put themselves in a weaker negotiating position by the last election result, which was a lot to do with a poor manifesto, based on taking money off the very people who historically vote Tory. 

It is quite obvious that the EU want to make an example out of the UK to deter any other Country that may be considering leaving the union and they are prepared to go to risky lengths to achieve this.

Brexit will undoubtedly hurt the UK in the short term, however, I do firmly believe that the country will survive and get stronger, have no doubts, Brexit damages the EU as well, The UK is a major contributor and economy in the EU, of the 27 odd countries, not many are, in fact a lot are completely the opposite and there will be one less to support the weaker ones, hence the EU reaction, had this been Greece or another country, then I think you would find a different attitude from Brussels.

Germany does a lot of trade with the UK and the other way around, neither country truly wants this to change, you can bet that there is a lot of frantic talk behind the scenes, with lobbying from the big companies who stand to lose a lot with a bad deal, it is a fact that Germany exports a lot more to the UK than the reverse (by some 47.2 Billion Euros in 2017), this is second only to the US, who are in the process of imposing trade restrictions with the EU.

In fact the EU as a whole makes far more money trade wise out of the UK, than the UK does out of the EU, with only 4 minor Countries who were positive trade for the UK within the EU in 2016.

To sum up, regardless of what happens or what we say, the UK needs the EU and the EU needs the UK and that isn't going to suddenly change.

 

https://www.destatis.de/EN/FactsFigures/NationalEconomyEnvironment/ForeignTrade/Tables/OrderRankGermanyTradingPartners.pdf?__blob=publicationFile

[bristolboy]

15 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

Sorry to say, but it's not simple at all. Though it might look simple to people who haven't worked in the City.

Thanks for the non-explanation explanation. Sounds like persiflage to me.

[My Thai Life]

3 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

Thanks for the non-explanation explanation. Sounds like persiflage to me.

I'm not mocking you at all. The range, scope and complexity of FS in the City does not lend itself to one line soundbites, whether in the support of remain or exit.

 

[sandyf]

Brexit means Brexit, unless it it an alternative Brexit, which begs the question 'What does Brexit mean?' or in other words what did people really think they were voting for.

 

Conservative Brexiteers are reportedly drawing up an alternative plan to rival Theresa May’s Chequers agreement, detailing what they claim to be the advantages of leaving the EU without a deal.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/conservatives-brexit-theresa-may-chequers-deal-tory-party-erg-a8491256.html

[bristolboy]

Just now, My Thai Life said:

I'm not mocking you at all. The range, scope and complexity of FS in the City does not lend itself to one line soundbites, whether in the support of remain or exit.

 

But it isn't about the complexity of the services. It's about who will be providing them. Clearly the EU plans to restrict the the access of UK financial firms to the European market. Which is why I am calling your invocation of "range, scope, and complexity" persiflage.

[sandyf]

17 hours ago, My Thai Life said:

 

Voting remain means voting for an "ever closer union", the end point of which has never been defined.

One has to assume you have a similar aversion to marriage.

 

 It's a bit like jumping on a conveyor belt to an unknown destination.

Brexit in a nutshell

 

 

 

 

 

 

[sandyf]

19 hours ago, billd766 said:

 

But on lies from BOTH sides.

I am not in favour of referendums, but don't you think Bill that that would be a fairly good reason to ask the question again.