UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[sandyf]

7 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

Exporters do not require an office in the target country. This is one of the basic principles of international trade.

 

If you agree with this then we agree. But your previous posts do not agree with this, despite your selective quoting.

Obviously the phrase "where the product requires CE marking" is outside your comprehension.

[My Thai Life]

11 minutes ago, Orac said:

Erm nobody - that is what zero and total removal mean.

 

We did discuss this earlier in case it has slipped your memory.

Nonsense, "zero and removal" have to be agreed by relevant parties, otherwise they do not exist.

 

Yes I did put a position earlier, to which you have not provided a coherent response. I asked you earlier to provide evidence for zero tariffs for agricultural produce into the EU in areas that the EU is competitive in - let's say dairy. If you can do this then you are adding to the knowledge on this thread to date, and I will greatly credit you for it; if you can't do this you are merely adding to the posturing and BS.

Edited October 14, 2018 by My Thai Life

[My Thai Life]

2 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Obviously the phrase "where the product requires CE marking" is outside your comprehension.

Certification does not require an exporter to set up an office in the target country, whether EU certification or not. I'm not going to retaliate with the personal insult, it would be too easy.

 

Driving around Europe in an estate car is a nice way to spend a holiday, but not a reliable way to learn about international trade, tariffs and finance.

[Orac]

10 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

Nonsense, "zero and removal" have to be agreed by relevant parties, otherwise they do not exist.

 

Yes I did put a position earlier, to which you have not provided a coherent response. I asked you earlier to provide evidence for zero tariffs for agricultural produce into the EU in areas that the EU is competitive in - let's say dairy. If you can do this then you are adding to the knowledge on this thread to date, and I will greatly credit you for it; if you can't do this you are merely adding to the posturing and BS.

 

Picked a random dairy product - cheese from Chad. Duty free with GSP cert.

 

https://www.trade-tariff.service.gov.uk/trade-tariff/commodities/0406303100?country=TD&day=13&month=10&year=2018#import

 

 

[tebee]

31 minutes ago, whatsupdoc said:

Like you (quote: "the EU is a bullying protectionist cartel" see post #4691), I myself am also an utterly impartial and completely neutral observer (but one who actually thinks the Brexit vote was about the most stupid thing the UK has ever done).????

 

But we do agree on one thing: no deal is indeed going to be fascinating. 

Fascinating like the ancient Chinese curse "may you live in interesting times"

[tebee]

9 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

Certification does not require an exporter to set up an office in the target country, whether EU certification or not. I'm not going to retaliate with the personal insult, it would be too easy.

 

Driving around Europe in an estate car is a nice way to spend a holiday, but not a reliable way to learn about international trade, tariffs and finance.

It's still not exactly easy 

 

http://www.ce-marking.org/how-obtain.html

 

[Guest]

40 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

So evidently you are not, by your own description, impartial.

 

An international troll may be a better description.

Yes, you certainly sound like one as shown by earlier reply. 

 

I also find it rather hilarious how you try to convince (yourself?) that you are not a brexiter.

[sandyf]

20 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

Certification does not require an exporter to set up an office in the target country,

I would have thought that with this vast experience in international trade you would have known that the CE regulations make no reference to exporters whatsoever and neither I or anyone else has said that setting up an office was necessary.

 

Once outside the EU, UK manufacturers will no longer be 'in the market', so they can no longer place product 'on the market', as they do at the moment, that will become the responsibility of someone else, within the EU. They will need an authorised representative and as I have already said that can be either their own office or an agent.

 

" It is necessary to ensure that products from third countries entering the Community market comply with all applicable Community requirements, and in particular that appropriate assessment procedures have been carried out by manufacturers with regard to those products. Provision should therefore be made for importers to make sure that the products they place on the market comply with the applicable requirements and that they do not place on the market products which do not comply with such requirements or present a risk. For the same reason, provision should also be made for importers to make sure that conformity assessment procedures have been carried out and that product marking and documentation drawn up by manufacturers are available for inspection by the supervisory authorities."

http://www.ce-mark.com/7682008EC.pdf

[melvinmelvin]

24 minutes ago, sandyf said:

 

 

Once outside the EU, UK manufacturers will no longer be 'in the market', so they can no longer place product 'on the market', as they do at the moment, that will become the responsibility of someone else, within the EU. They will need an authorised representative and as I have already said that can be either their own office or an agent.

 

 

 

how does Amazon, ebay and similar hack  these requirements?

 

[tebee]

3 hours ago, My Thai Life said:

Actually the option you refer to (no deal) is quite possibly the most likely one at present. And it may be the best in the long term. Do you read the economists who say it is? Or do you only read stuff that reflects your prejudices (the aptly-titled "echo chamber")?

 

The referendum was a simple in-out vote. The UK voted out.

 

As I've said many times, I'm neutral in this discussion. But trying to overthrow a democratic vote will create far more long-lasting damage than a hard exit; and trying to overthrow the referendum result is fundamentally undemocratic, no matter how people try to justify it.

 

Of all the remain posters, you seem to be (in general) the most polite and civilised and informed, but also the most worried. Given your business situation I can understand this. Things always change in business, as you know I'm sure.

Yes i'm quite happy to accept that no deal is the most most likely outcome at present. I'm still sad about it.

 

On the other hand I do wish you would stop trying spread such revisionist craptrap about what people voted for. Exactly 0% of the population ticked the "chaotic no deal, because our government is to stupid/incompetent to decide what we want" option on the ballot paper.

 

So why should something no one voted for be the favoured option over what 48% voted for ?

 

Overthrow is a very emotive word. But if you look round a goodly number of referendums have been ignored, revised or recast recently. Most pertinent is the Swiss one, where given a choice of economic suicide or ignoring a referendum on FOM,   they chose the later - I don't see Swiss democracy disintegrating because of this ?      

[tebee]

1 hour ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

how does Amazon, ebay and similar hack  these requirements?

 

Individual personal import doesn't need to comply with the regulations 

[tebee]

4 hours ago, My Thai Life said:

You seem to be forgetting that we don't actually need the EU's approval on the UK-Irish border.

Yes we do - post brexit it's an EU border too !

[kwilco]

No deal will open the door to a totalitarian state....the UK is already on its way.

 

 

Edited October 14, 2018 by kwilco

[melvinmelvin]

9 minutes ago, tebee said:

Individual personal import doesn't need to comply with the regulations 

 

ok, ta,

but does that also go for the more complicated (than a toothbrush) equipment?

equipment that requires laboratory testing and type approval?

 

eg equipment that falls under directive 52 and 55 on the list that you linked to above?

[Rimmer]

An off topic nonsense picture has been removed

[RuamRudy]

Genuine question because I don't know how this will work - I am sure it has been thought of and addressed (????) but when I tried to google it I didn't get very far.

 

How will lorry drivers (both UK and foreign) be considered post Brexit? Assuming that trade with the EU will continue in some fashion or other, will British drivers still be allowed to deliver goods across the EU? Will EU nationals be allowed to deliver across the UK?

 

The Road Hauliers' Association website was a bit vague and most other resources I found referred to possible difficulties at borders re: customs inspections, but I was thinking about the right of EU nationals and Brits to work cross border, specifically in haulage. I saw something about a reciprocal agreement being necessary, and failing that, a fallback of 103 permits...

[My Thai Life]

47 minutes ago, tebee said:

Yes we do - post brexit it's an EU border too !

No we don't. The EU is not a nation. Nations have borders, supranational bureaucracies don't. Just like you can't be a citizen of the EU. If you were a citizen of the EU, you would still be a citizen of the EU after the UK leaves (assuming you are actually British to begin with).

 

The only reason the EU has any say in the Irish border at all is because May has bought the line that a backstop is necessary. It isn't. The reasons May has done this, and by doing so has reneged on her GE manifesto and Lancaster House pledges, are not clear, though half a dozen reasons have been suggested.

[My Thai Life]

1 hour ago, tebee said:

Yes i'm quite happy to accept that no deal is the most most likely outcome at present. I'm still sad about it.

 

On the other hand I do wish you would stop trying spread such revisionist craptrap about what people voted for. Exactly 0% of the population ticked the "chaotic no deal, because our government is to stupid/incompetent to decide what we want" option on the ballot paper.

 

"Revisionism" usually means something like re-writing history. Well surely it's clear that the remainers who deny the result of the referendum are the revisionists.

 

The thing that makes me most sad in this fiasco is that so many people refuse to accept what was a democratic vote. And I say this as an impartial observer. The chaos has arisen for one reason only - politicians and others have failed to honour the in-out vote which resulted in "out", whether by incompetence or deceit or fear of such a big change.

 

Regarding a potential no deal outcome. This is probably the fastest way to get to the endpoint of having a free trade economy, and it will also cut out a huge amount of nonsense over the next few years. The initial pain will be sharper of course.

[Grouse]

10 hours ago, My Thai Life said:

I guess one day you will actually discuss something rather than just making unsupported assertions and personal insults. EU CAP policy creates import tariffs of an average of 17% - as demonstrated by the EU tariff schedule that I posted a few weeks back.  This isn't the first time you've asserted that the EU is a good environmental steward. Utter nonsense - you obviously missed this post.

 

The one good thing about Brexit? Leaving the EU’s disgraceful farming system

 

One or two posters have said how great the EU’s Common Agricultural Policy is for protecting the environment. As usual it was just a bit of unsubstantiated emotionalism. Here’s something a bit more substantial about how terrible the CAP is protecting the environment (from The Guardian no less). Add to this Merkel's collusion over the German car makers’ emissions scam and see what a great job the EU isn't doing in this area.

 

 

“This is the farm subsidy system that spends €50bn (£44bn) a year on achieving none of its objectives. It is among the most powerful drivers of environmental destruction in the northern hemisphere. Because payments are made only for land that’s in “agricultural condition”, the system creates a perverse incentive to clear wildlife habitats, even in places unsuitable for farming, to produce the empty ground that qualifies for public money. These payments have led to the destruction of hundreds of thousands of hectares of magnificent wild placesacross Europe.”

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/oct/10/brexit-leaving-eu-farming-agriculture

Listen sonny, I did not insult you; frankly, there is no need. If I did insult you I think you would know.

 

I have no wish to start bickering so I'll leave it there.

 

I am no fan of CAP, but protective tariff barriers are good for us and that was my point. I was particularly referring to British farmers and I should have made that clear. EU husbandry standards are inadequate but far better than elsewhere. I want our farmers to earn a decent crust so that they can maintain high standards and protect our countryside.

 

I will not attempt to explain emissions testing to you as I don't think you would understand. Do you understand EGR? What's a Lamda sensor? 

[tebee]

1 hour ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

ok, ta,

but does that also go for the more complicated (than a toothbrush) equipment?

equipment that requires laboratory testing and type approval?

 

eg equipment that falls under directive 52 and 55 on the list that you linked to above?

It wasn't me that linked that, but stuff for commercial use or resale should comply, but it's widely ignored.

 

If however, one of your employees subsequently electrocutes themselves using a nonCE approved power tool, you could be in a lot of trouble.   

[Grouse]

9 hours ago, My Thai Life said:

This is the graphic I used before for average EU tariffs. I took it a month or two ago from one of the UK "quality" newspapers - I forget which one. 35% tariff on dairy coming in. And then the EU dumps excess dairy, produced unnecessarily by greedy EU farmers because of the massive subsidies, onto Africa, putting African farmers out of business, and thereby fuelling the migrant crisis. All this has been said before with supporting references. Now I really must get on with the rest of my day. Cheers all.

 

Personally, I prefer to see our farmers protected and not forced to live like third world country subsistence farmers. 

[aright]

3 hours ago, Orac said:

 

 

It is a letter in the Guardian which seems to be rather out of touch. As I have already pointed out earlier with links, the EU no longer imposes stiff tariffs on African agricultural imports  so the letter writer is wrong in his assertion. 

 

Here are are the current preference agreements in place.

 

 

Former international development secretary Andrew Mitchell speaks for Africa’s 1 billion people when he writes “the world is moving to a freer trading regime, protectionism is declining and discredited” (A plea to fellow Tories: let’s not relive the Maastricht years, 22 February). No continent is more desperate for a freer trading regime than Africa. Yet, despite their rhetoric about supporting Africa, no other continental bloc administers a more comprehensive trade protection against Africa than the European Union.

 

 

Sam Akaki
Director, Democratic Institutions for Poverty Reduction in Africa

 

You of course are in touch whilst Andrew Mitchell, and Sam Akaki are out of touch and the other two links don't count then.

 

So far I have given you three links inditing  EU export import policy  which  you have swept  aside preferring like most remainers to be in denial of any thing which criticises the EU. I asked  you to tell me the changes that had taken place in trading policy...….no answer,  you give me a green map with no reference.

Can you provide me with a link which says EU trading policy  has global high regard? 

[tebee]

3 minutes ago, aright said:

....

Can you provide me with a link which says EU trading policy  has global high regard? 

https://www.wto.org/english/tratop_e/tpr_e/g248_e.doc

[mommysboy]

1 hour ago, tebee said:

Yes i'm quite happy to accept that no deal is the most most likely outcome at present. I'm still sad about it.

 

On the other hand I do wish you would stop trying spread such revisionist craptrap about what people voted for. Exactly 0% of the population ticked the "chaotic no deal, because our government is to stupid/incompetent to decide what we want" option on the ballot paper.

 

So why should something no one voted for be the favoured option over what 48% voted for ?

 

Overthrow is a very emotive word. But if you look round a goodly number of referendums have been ignored, revised or recast recently. Most pertinent is the Swiss one, where given a choice of economic suicide or ignoring a referendum on FOM,   they chose the later - I don't see Swiss democracy disintegrating because of this ?      

 

Indeed.  So blasphemous is it  nobody wants to talk about it, but if we are talking about theoretical options then simply cancelling is one of them.  No deal is basically saying we haven't been able to do it - it simply is not a valid option- it means something has gone very wrong.

 

Wherever there is a deal there is a potential for collapse as we see in business.  Nobody would give a second thought to cancelling an order if the anticipated red Ferrari turned out to be a battered old banger, and everyone would kick up a stink at an ill fitted kitchen cupboard, but apparently simple rules don't apply to Brexit.

 

I think it very unlikely, but there is an increasing chance Brexit won't happen- 5% maybe.

[Grouse]

4 hours ago, mommysboy said:

'Actually the option you refer to (no deal) is quite possibly the most likely one at present.'

 

Just as it should be clearly understood that Remain is not an option, it should be agreed that 'no deal' is also off the table, in fact it has never been on.

 

In my opinion, the options at hand are the Government Plan and the Free Trade Deal (Norway).  Both have 'silent majority appeal'. The Government should now be left to choose which is preferred by the electorate.

 

I think it is no exaggeration to say it would be a grave error to ignore the will of the people.  The sensible strategy would be a Final Say on those 2 options, but those options only. 

As I keep saying. The negotiations will tend (asymptotically) toward a Nash Equilibrium; probably Norway+. I strongly suspect that EU and U.K. negotiators understand this even if many on TV appear not to....

[Grouse]

4 hours ago, My Thai Life said:

 

Really?

 

"While 15 of the 20 countries to have passed the highest number of trade-restricting policies since the financial crisis are advanced economies, many others have also imposed harmful measures.

India, Russia and Argentina have all imposed hundreds of harmful trade policies across the research"period.

Frankly, I don't give a damn. 

 

This thread is about Brexit not saving the world

 

Please stay on topic

[melvinmelvin]

39 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Genuine question because I don't know how this will work - I am sure it has been thought of and addressed (????) but when I tried to google it I didn't get very far.

 

How will lorry drivers (both UK and foreign) be considered post Brexit? Assuming that trade with the EU will continue in some fashion or other, will British drivers still be allowed to deliver goods across the EU? Will EU nationals be allowed to deliver across the UK?

 

The Road Hauliers' Association website was a bit vague and most other resources I found referred to possible difficulties at borders re: customs inspections, but I was thinking about the right of EU nationals and Brits to work cross border, specifically in haulage. I saw something about a reciprocal agreement being necessary, and failing that, a fallback of 103 permits...

 

good question, I have posted many similar questions over the past few months

 

my guess is that your question is registered but not addressed

 

I think your question falls into the same category as; (after Brexit)

 

will UK citizens need a Schengen visa for going to Spain on holiday?

will aircrafts be able to take off from UK airports for going to EU?

will UK aircrafts be able to land in EU?

will trains from UK be accepted into EU?

will reporting regimes for shipping through the Channel change on Brexit day?

 

and a huge host of similar questions - HUGE HOST

 

seems to me that the Tory leadership expects these Qs to be solved automagically as we get closer to March

 

 

 

 

 

[Orac]

19 minutes ago, aright said:

Former international development secretary Andrew Mitchell speaks for Africa’s 1 billion people when he writes “the world is moving to a freer trading regime, protectionism is declining and discredited” (A plea to fellow Tories: let’s not relive the Maastricht years, 22 February). No continent is more desperate for a freer trading regime than Africa. Yet, despite their rhetoric about supporting Africa, no other continental bloc administers a more comprehensive trade protection against Africa than the European Union.

 

 

Sam Akaki
Director, Democratic Institutions for Poverty Reduction in Africa

 

You of course are in touch whilst Andrew Mitchell, and Sam Akaki are out of touch and the other two links don't count then.

 

So far I have given you three links inditing  EU export import policy  which  you have swept  aside preferring like most remainers to be in denial of any thing which criticises the EU. I asked  you to tell me the changes that had taken place in trading policy...….no answer,  you give me a green map with no reference.

Can you provide me with a link which says EU trading policy  has global high regard? 

 

Bizarre

 

i have no problem specifically with what Andrew Mitchell says since he makes no mention of Africa or developing countries and it is just a vague reference to changing trading patterns globally with less protectionism which is exactly my point regarding EU removing barriers to African imports.

 

My specific problem with the Sam Akaki letter was his line the EU imposed stiff tariffs on African agricultural imports to the EU but, oddly, this line has now disappeared from your post along with the link that originally contained it.

 

The previous links you provided I pointed out either were over 15 years old and out of date or did not refer to developing markets which is what we were discussing.

 

I am sorry you couldn’t understand the map as I thought it was the simplest way of demonstrating the various new deals in place to remove tariffs from developing countries in Africa showing which preference agreement were applicable for each - if you want the full details they are here but, trust me the map is simpler.

 

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?qid=1539523719649&uri=CELEX:32012R0978

 

As for me providing some link saying EU trading policy is held in high regard, can’t say I have ever seen one but, there again, it is not a claim I have ever made.

[tebee]

20 minutes ago, Grouse said:

As I keep saying. The negotiations will tend (asymptotically) toward a Nash Equilibrium; probably Norway+. I strongly suspect that EU and U.K. negotiators understand this even if many on TV appear not to....

Yes, I agree in normal circumstances it should, but much of economics and the Nash equilibrium in particular, assume the the participants  are rational players. With the current gov and the DUP I don't think we can assume this.

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, tebee said:

Yes i'm quite happy to accept that no deal is the most most likely outcome at present. I'm still sad about it.

 

On the other hand I do wish you would stop trying spread such revisionist craptrap about what people voted for. Exactly 0% of the population ticked the "chaotic no deal, because our government is to stupid/incompetent to decide what we want" option on the ballot paper.

 

So why should something no one voted for be the favoured option over what 48% voted for ?

 

Overthrow is a very emotive word. But if you look round a goodly number of referendums have been ignored, revised or recast recently. Most pertinent is the Swiss one, where given a choice of economic suicide or ignoring a referendum on FOM,   they chose the later - I don't see Swiss democracy disintegrating because of this ?      

Excellent rapier reposte!