UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[sandyf]

4 hours ago, nauseus said:

EU protectionism will only pale into insignificance when the EU is either reconstituted or dissolved.     

It is no wonder you voted to leave if you think that EU tariffs are in excess of the 292% that the US tried to slap on Bombadier.

 

Canadian aerospace firm Bombardier has won a landmark case in the US, overturning a decision to impose huge 292% tariffs on imports of its C-Series planes, partly built in the UK.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-42825916

[vinny41]

1 hour ago, tebee said:

Ex-cabinet Brexiters:
"People voted to leave, they knew that meant Hard Brexit, they can't change their minds now"


Also:
"The December agreement we voted for - we didn't know what it meant, we must be able to go back & change our minds"

Without a link you post is pointless

[NanLaew]

2 hours ago, tebee said:

Well they have made a start !

 

Incidentally most of the indoor chicken production in France is for the British Frozen chicken supermarket trade, where price is King. The French prefer "Label   Rouge" corn fed, free range chickens to eat. Only poor people eat  the white indoor raised birds.

 

Incidentally it's very hard to find frozen chicken in France, almost all is fresh. 

I was buddies with the Duc Du Burgoine guy when he was the chicken king of France. We used to chew the fat, him, me and his buddy Fidel over on Varadero and then we'd go play the 9-holes at the Sol Melia. Man...those were the days.

[sandyf]

1 hour ago, tebee said:

No I meant open indoor raised rather than battery raised - battery is general only used for egg production rather than chickens raised for meat.

 

I will agree that furnished cages are far from perfect, but they are much better than the original battery cages, where the chickens have no space to move round. Do you think we would have got even this far without the EU?

  

Quite, some years ago and before the EU & SM era, I used to live next door to a chicken farmer and knew the farmer reasonably well. He sold to the supermarkets and wasn't supposed to cage the birds until the vehicle had arrived which had usually turned up at the appropriate time. One night he had arranged to go out so loaded the cages and left the trailer ready for the vehicle to pick up.

The vehicle got stuck in a traffic jam and when the farmer returned home found the chickens had cooked themselves. There was a JCB there first thing next morning to bury the birds and needless to say he lost the contract.

[My Thai Life]

2 hours ago, mommysboy said:

The extra year is needed because the Government couldn't get its act together.  A weak, half baked government with a weak, half baked plan.

Hi MB, you know I agree with your view that this government is not the best we've had. But a few thoughts about this, not in an attempt to justify them, but just to get a bigger picture, or at least part of a bigger picture:

 

> Brexit is probably the largest politico-economic endeavour ever performed worldwide; the dissolution of the USSR is a candidate, but it doesn't come close

> A50 was drafted by Lord Kerr in a hurry, for a completely different scenario; many of the problems arise because of this, particularly sequencing problems

> it's unlikely, even given the UK's 100% alignment with EU regulations on exit day +1, that an FTA could be agreed with the EU inside 2 years

> the UK has been led by a remainer, and she has been driven by her desire to appease remainers.

 

My personal view at present is that (1) we are going to exit (2) no form of Brino delivers on the referendum outcome (and believe me, I have researched them all) (3) the ability to control our own trade policy is a core requirement (4) this can be achieved most quickly via a no deal (5) 4 is going to be painful, like having a tooth pulled without anaesthetic (silly metaphor, but you know what I mean), but anything else is going to drag on for years and years, and it's going to allow our "friends" in Europe to play even more games.

[NanLaew]

2 hours ago, mommysboy said:

The extra year is needed because the Government couldn't get its act together.  A weak, half baked government with a weak, half baked plan.

May "would consider a one-year extension to the UK's transition out of the EU.

 

She told a European Council summit in Brussels on Wednesday that she was "ready to consider" staying tied to the EU beyond the end of December 2020, as part of a proposal raised by Michel Barnier, the EU chief negotiator,...

 

Yes, it's the EU government that doesn't have it's ducks in a row.

 

15 - love for May after Eire caved.

30 - love for May after Barnier caved.

 

DUP's next.

Edited October 18, 2018 by NanLaew

[sandyf]

For those that may have mistakenly believed that doing business with the US would be of benefit to the UK.

 

She also said the European Union would be willing to reduce its car tariffs to zero if the United States did the same.

Trump rejected the idea as “not good enough”, adding that EU consumers simply tended to buy European rather than American cars.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trade-eu/eu-u-s-trade-chiefs-to-mend-ties-after-trump-tariff-detente-idUSKCN1LL16K

[My Thai Life]

The CAP is without doubt the single biggest disaster in the EU, and there are many candidates for that accolade: economically, ethically and morally it has failed. But it has lined the pockets of the biggest landowners.

 

It's farcical that some here are still trying to present the CAP in a positive light:

 

"Over half (51%) of the farms examined in seven EU countries received CAP payments totalling €104 million in the last year reported, despite being the highest emitters of ammonia in their countries. The research compared CAP direct payments and the EU’s registers of pollution from industrial facilities.

Ammonia runoff from fertilizers or manure slurry leads to the rapid growth of algae in rivers, lakes and seas, choking plants and animals of oxygen. Ammonia also causes air pollution from fine particulate matter, which impacts human health."

 

ttps://www.greenpeace.org/eu-unit/issues/nature-food/1219/investigation-how-cap-promotes-pollution/

 

 

[sandyf]

5 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

May "would consider a one-year extension to the UK's transition out of the EU.

 

She told a European Council summit in Brussels on Wednesday that she was "ready to consider" staying tied to the EU beyond the end of December 2020, as part of a proposal raised by Michel Barnier, the EU chief negotiator,...

 

Yes, it's the EU government that doesn't have it's ducks in a row.

 

15 - love for May after Eire caved.

30 - love for May after Barnier caved.

 

DUP's next.

Who's caved?  TM rejected the idea last week but thinking about it this week after they cancelled the Nov summit.

 

Brussels floated a one-year extension to the post-departure transition period, until the end of 2021, to make it less likely the Irish border “backstop” would be needed – and, therefore, easier for the UK to accept.

But an extension would require paying billions extra to the EU, when the exit bill has already angered Tory MPs, prompting the prime minister to stamp on the idea.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-deal-theresa-may-rejected-eu-offer-deadlock-billions-divorce-a8588941.html

[My Thai Life]

11 hours ago, tebee said:

French are getting prepared for a no-deal brexit - it's a pity we are not.

 

And for Brits in the UK like myself, it's not pretty.

I assume you mean "Brits in France" like yourself? (And actually "we" are getting ready for no-deal, hadn't you noticed?)

 

Sure, you'll have to (if Macron has his way) get some form of residence, business or work permit. Another catastrophe for you.

 

Worth noting that (1) your glorious president Macron is acting out the bad cop role and making these stipulations, blame him not "us" (2) countries, whether inside the EU or not, are able to enter bilateral agreements in this respect.

Edited October 18, 2018 by My Thai Life

[Srikcir]

3 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

I assume you mean "Brits in France"

Germany and France are starting to step up their preparations for a no-deal Brexit even though both publicly insist an agreement with the UK over the terms of its departure from the EU can still be achieved. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/oct/17/france-says-britons-could-need-visa-to-visit-after-no-deal-brexit

 

[My Thai Life]

One of our esteemed fellows here continues to postulate that it's a case of the UK against the 27. Many other posters, regardless of which side of the debate they position themselves, know that a united 27 has never been the case, and never will be. There have been many dissenters, not just the Greece, Italy, Poland and Hungary, etc of today. But here's an interesting view from Iceland, which I chanced upon today:

 

"Everyone wants to trade with Britain, says Iceland's foreign minister"

 

“You’re the fifth largest economy in the world. Everyone wants to sell you goods and services. It’s just as simple as that.”

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/09/05/everyone-wants-trade-britain-says-icelands-foreign-minister/

 

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

6 hours ago, Grouse said:

The whole thing is stupid

 

Have you not realised that yet?

 

Another breezily arrogant comment from Grouse. Just can't help yourself can ya!?

 

Some of the symptoms of Brexit and the management/enactment of it are indeed stupid. I think I've made my stance clear on the underlying reasons for the whole thing though. Definitely NOT stupid.

 

Continuing down this road of tit-for-tat diplomatic break down will infuse a new level of bitterness and spite into proceedings, if you ask me. That really would be STUPID. And frankly, I'd expect a little more from grown men and women, even if they're shallow bureaucrats and supercilious politicians. 

 

 

Edited October 18, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[damascase]

18 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

One of our esteemed fellows here continues to postulate that it's a case of the UK against the 27. Many other posters, regardless of which side of the debate they position themselves, know that a united 27 has never been the case, and never will be. There have been many dissenters, not just the Greece, Italy, Poland and Hungary, etc of today. But here's an interesting view from Iceland, which I chanced upon today:

 

"Everyone wants to trade with Britain, says Iceland's foreign minister"

 

“You’re the fifth largest economy in the world. Everyone wants to sell you goods and services. It’s just as simple as that.”

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/09/05/everyone-wants-trade-britain-says-icelands-foreign-minister/

 

At least a far as Brexit is concerned, the 27 are united. And of course everyone wants to sell you something, but if they don’t buy from you, you are in trouble...........

[bristolboy]

28 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

One of our esteemed fellows here continues to postulate that it's a case of the UK against the 27. Many other posters, regardless of which side of the debate they position themselves, know that a united 27 has never been the case, and never will be. There have been many dissenters, not just the Greece, Italy, Poland and Hungary, etc of today. But here's an interesting view from Iceland, which I chanced upon today:

 

"Everyone wants to trade with Britain, says Iceland's foreign minister"

 

“You’re the fifth largest economy in the world. Everyone wants to sell you goods and services. It’s just as simple as that.”

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/09/05/everyone-wants-trade-britain-says-icelands-foreign-minister/

 

The question is will they want to do more trade with the UK than they do now.

[My Thai Life]

55 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

The question is will they want to do more trade with the UK than they do now.

Eh? Trade policy is completely constrained by EU membership at present.

[bristolboy]

2 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

Eh? Trade policy is completely constrained by EU membership at present. This is the core of Brexit. International troll ideologues just don't get it.

Really? The EU has some major trade treaties under its belt or nearly complete. In addition it's average tariff rate is currently slightly less than 2 percent.

https://www.indexmundi.com/facts/european-union/tariff-rate

For those of us who understand international trade in this modern age of low tariffs, borderless trade is a a far more important to than lowering tariff rates than are already very low. You think the USA is going to make the UK part of Nafta or whatever Trump is calling it now.

For those of us who understanding negotiating, the bigger the gorilla in the negotiating room the more clout it has.

 

[adammike]

44 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

One of our esteemed fellows here continues to postulate that it's a case of the UK against the 27. Many other posters, regardless of which side of the debate they position themselves, know that a united 27 has never been the case, and never will be. There have been many dissenters, not just the Greece, Italy, Poland and Hungary, etc of today. But here's an interesting view from Iceland, which I chanced upon today:

 

"Everyone wants to trade with Britain, says Iceland's foreign minister"

 

“You’re the fifth largest economy in the world. Everyone wants to sell you goods and services. It’s just as simple as that.”

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/09/05/everyone-wants-trade-britain-says-icelands-foreign-minister/

 

I thought it was about the UK selling goods and services.

[My Thai Life]

1 minute ago, adammike said:

I thought it was about the UK selling goods and services.

You are the first person to pick up on that  point, congratulations! However, my post was about the lack of unanimity within the 27, which some posters don't understand, or even see.

 

It's about trade isn't it, but sadly, the UK is unable to pursue its trade policy from within the EU, that's why the UK is leaving the EU.

 

I'm not sure if you read the full article or not, but the  Mr Thordarson goes on to say that "erecting trade barriers after Brexit would "simply mean that the politicians in the remaining 27 EU countries will have to explain to the people who could lose their jobs, that they are doing it because they are so 'tough' on the Brits.”"

 

 

[adammike]

3 hours ago, tebee said:

There is a high % of levers in NI that want Brexit even if it wreaks the Good Friday agreement. 

 

So brexit is worth reigniting a civil war in your country for ? You are the ones who are going to have to live through this - I really don't understand the brexit at all costs mentality.

I read that in a few years the Catholic population of northern Ireland will be in a majority.A referendum is held over unification and a majority is for it,well it's the will of the people and all that.The trouble with Ireland is the threat of bombs and guns at the first hint of a break from the UK for NI or unification,that problem will definitely be above the ability of anybody in the present government.

[bristolboy]

8 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

You are the first person to pick up on that  point, congratulations! However, my post was about the lack of unanimity within the 27, which some posters don't understand, or even see.

 

It's about trade isn't it, but sadly, the UK is unable to pursue its trade policy from within the EU, that's why the UK is leaving the EU.

 

I'm not sure if you read the full article or not, but the  Mr Thordarson goes on to say that "erecting trade barriers after Brexit would "simply mean that the politicians in the remaining 27 EU countries will have to explain to the people who could lose their jobs, that they are doing it because they are so 'tough' on the Brits.”"

 

 

And how will the politicians of the UK be explaining a far higher level of job losses to their constituents? No EU country not even Ireland exports as high a percentage of its total exports to the UK as the UK does to the EU. And considering that Brexit was driven in large part by resentment of immigrants from other EU nations, do you think possibly that the UK might have incurred some bad will amongst them on that account?

[tebee]

1 hour ago, My Thai Life said:

I assume you mean "Brits in France" like yourself? (And actually "we" are getting ready for no-deal, hadn't you noticed?)

 

Sure, you'll have to (if Macron has his way) get some form of residence, business or work permit. Another catastrophe for you.

 

Worth noting that (1) your glorious president Macron is acting out the bad cop role and making these stipulations, blame him not "us" (2) countries, whether inside the EU or not, are able to enter bilateral agreements in this respect.

No I was referring to the French government.

 

They introduced draft legislation to deal with no deal brexit. 

 

http://www.senat.fr/leg/pjl18-009.html

 

Basically

 

All loads arriving from UK will inspected from day 1 

 

Reinstatement of veterinary and phytosanitary controls at the borders of the EU for live animals, plants and animal and plant products from the UK, or from other third countries transiting the UK

 

There are only 3 ports in northern France that can accept and inspect animal products - they recognize the need to expand this.  

 

There are measures to expropriate the land and fast track  the planning process for the  improvements including the construction of roads, car parks, buildings, control areas... for carrying out controls and customs facilities.

 

All UK haulage licences invalid - only specially authorized loads and no return loads or  Cabotage.

 

All visas issued to UK citizens and their families on an EU basis invalid, need to reapply under national law.

 

UK citizens currently legally employed in France by a French employer asked to obtain a work permit, as required by any foreign workers, to avoid the employer being taken to court for having non-authorised workers under the Code du Travail.

 

A no-deal Brexit could affect certain professions (including medic and pharmacist) where only citizens of EU or EEC member states are allowed to exercise those jobs in France.

 

As French public service jobs (including teachers) are open only to French citizens and in some sectors EU/EEC citizens, UK nationals in a public service job are not covered. New legislation needed.

UK citizens legally resident in France will no longer have automatic access to French social security system. Need for new laws to address how they contribute and what benefits they get. Questions over reciprocal access for those who have contributed in UK.

 

 

[brucec64]

LOL biggest crock post i've read yet. EU can't do anything to secure any of their borders in Europe in regard's to smuggling, Immigration and anything else that affects so called EU border's. That is what is not difficult to understand. Too many people have opinions about hings that do not directly affect them.
 
Maybe they should get their own border's sorted without bothering about other borders.
 
No matter what happens with Brexit it will never be an acceptable agreement on any side.
 
Britain has gone it alone before and im sure it can do again. Blow up the channel tunnel will be the 1st good start. Then EU wont need to worry about that border. Put a hard border back in Ireland that's problem solved there. Not as if these borders were not in place before and not as if they cannot be put back in place.

So you dont care if the Troubles start up again and you have another 30 years of civil war? Because that is exactly what you are saying.

But, im alright jack...

Sent from my SM-N950U1 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[brucec64]

But it will create an even bigger problem.
 
A 'soft' border between North and South is part of the Good Friday agreement.
 
A hard land border will upset Republicans; a hard sea border between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK will upset Unionists.
 
I don't mean just upset the politicians; I mean either will upset the people with guns and bombs!
 
Before the Good Friday agreement we had 30 years of regular terrorist murders and atrocities in the RoI and UK; do you want to go back to that?

Exactly. Nobody seems to get that. Without that issue they would have made a deal a year ago. There is no real solution. There are regulatory and customs issues even with the best of free trade deals. Canada and US have a very comprehensive free trade deal, but a very hard border in between. It is easy to criticize, but I have not seen a single workable plan put forward on this forum or anywhere else.

Sent from my SM-N950U1 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

 

Another breezily arrogant comment from Grouse. Just can't help yourself can ya!?

 

Some of the symptoms of Brexit and the management/enactment of it are indeed stupid. I think I've made my stance clear on the underlying reasons for the whole thing though. Definitely NOT stupid.

 

Continuing down this road of tit-for-tat diplomatic break down will infuse a new level of bitterness and spite into proceedings, if you ask me. That really would be STUPID. And frankly, I'd expect a little more from grown men and women, even if they're shallow bureaucrats and supercilious politicians. 

 

 

To reiterate the whole Brexit farce is indeed stupid.

 

The original idea was imbecilic, asking the general population for their opinion was idiotic, the negotiations are being carried out by self serving morons. The UK has been made a laughing stock ????

 

I blame the dumbing down of the UK generally and the inadequate education of the underprivileged in particular

 

I'm glad you noticed my condescending tone; how perspicacious of you!

 

If if this continues I may start sneering!

[mommysboy]

3 hours ago, My Thai Life said:

Hi MB, you know I agree with your view that this government is not the best we've had. But a few thoughts about this, not in an attempt to justify them, but just to get a bigger picture, or at least part of a bigger picture:

 

> Brexit is probably the largest politico-economic endeavour ever performed worldwide; the dissolution of the USSR is a candidate, but it doesn't come close

> A50 was drafted by Lord Kerr in a hurry, for a completely different scenario; many of the problems arise because of this, particularly sequencing problems

> it's unlikely, even given the UK's 100% alignment with EU regulations on exit day +1, that an FTA could be agreed with the EU inside 2 years

> the UK has been led by a remainer, and she has been driven by her desire to appease remainers.

 

My personal view at present is that (1) we are going to exit (2) no form of Brino delivers on the referendum outcome (and believe me, I have researched them all) (3) the ability to control our own trade policy is a core requirement (4) this can be achieved most quickly via a no deal (5) 4 is going to be painful, like having a tooth pulled without anaesthetic (silly metaphor, but you know what I mean), but anything else is going to drag on for years and years, and it's going to allow our "friends" in Europe to play even more games.

Yes, I pretty much agree with your thinking. 

 

I have said all along there are in fact only two options and one choice: single market (soft Brexit), or a simple no deal (for the time being).  The one is eminently workable and the other actually quite cunning.

 

The problem is the latter requires the will of the people and a strong government- we simply don't have this.  What's more there is a real danger Scotland and N.Ireland would go their own way.

 

The problem with Brexit is not so much the result or the doing of it, but the hysteria that surrounds it, but that hysteria is almost palpable.

 

It won't happen, it can't happen, but the best solution is to ditch Brexit for the time being.

 

 

[nauseus]

4 hours ago, sandyf said:

It is no wonder you voted to leave if you think that EU tariffs are in excess of the 292% that the US tried to slap on Bombadier.

 

Canadian aerospace firm Bombardier has won a landmark case in the US, overturning a decision to impose huge 292% tariffs on imports of its C-Series planes, partly built in the UK.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-42825916

Off topic.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, My Thai Life said:

You are the first person to pick up on that  point, congratulations! However, my post was about the lack of unanimity within the 27, which some posters don't understand, or even see.

 

It's about trade isn't it, but sadly, the UK is unable to pursue its trade policy from within the EU, that's why the UK is leaving the EU.

 

I'm not sure if you read the full article or not, but the  Mr Thordarson goes on to say that "erecting trade barriers after Brexit would "simply mean that the politicians in the remaining 27 EU countries will have to explain to the people who could lose their jobs, that they are doing it because they are so 'tough' on the Brits.”"

 

 

I'm pretty sure there is unity in EU-27 that everyone wishes to export their products to UK. That's hardly surprising. 

 

If by now, you still don't get it that EU is far, far more than a trade deal for the EU-27, I suppose you'll never understand it. Quite the similar that I can't really understand the royal family, lords and the acceptance of the rest class society in UK. 

[billd766]

I found this on the BBC News site today.

 

Look at the top 30 countries, see where the UK is and where the rest of the EU countries are. Go back over the years and see where the UK stood and stands now.

 

Global Competitiveness Report

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Competitiveness_Report#2018–2019_rankings

 

 

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, My Thai Life said:

It's about trade isn't it, but sadly, the UK is unable to pursue its trade policy from within the EU, that's why the UK is leaving the EU

I always wondered why Brexiters want leave the EU. Now I know ????