UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[RuamRudy]

3 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

I didn't mean your borders were in dispute, they are not, 'cause Scotland does not have any borders.

After jumping UK there will be borders all over the place, and these must be agreed with neighbours,

UK, Ireland?, Norway, Netherlands, Faroe Islands,

Belgium? Dunno - need to consult a map.

 

(and then there are these comprehensive economical sones - lots of miles - maybe crashing with Iceland and Greenland.

 Shetland is quite a bit north and west)

 

these are just a few of the issues;

Scotland does not have passports

no travel /visa agreements

no recognized satang

no stamps I would guess

have football teams and hooligans though

 

 

as part of becoming a recognized sovereign state there is a bunch of organizations in which membership

might be wise;

un + a host of its special agencies (few being upu-itu-imo-icao ++++), nato, european council, iso-ieee-cen-cenelec-etsi, wto - simply a bunch

 

its a huge project RR,

and while doing the necessary arm movements to become a recognised sovereign state spare time can usefully be

invested in establishing a comprehensive regulatory environment which will be requested by eu

 

scots in LoS need to come out of retirement

 

Nobody is suggesting that independence is going to be a walk in the park, but just because something is difficult doesn't mean that it isn't the best course of action in the long term. How many countries have become independent from the UK and then asked to return?

[billd766]

2 hours ago, nauseus said:

Evidently there were two but as discussed before on one of these Brexit topics, this NO pamphlet, strangely, did not make the letterboxes of all British homes. If I had seen it I would have remembered it as accurate, valid, far-seeing and well done.    

I was in the RAF in Germany at the time and I don't remember getting a pamphlet.

 

32 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Which borders are in dispute, other than the tranche of North Sea off SE Scotland that was sequestered on the eve of the opening of Holyrood? That particular area should be easy enough for Scotland to take back control; all other borders are clearly defined in accordance with international norms.

 

We have a military capacity already - there is no reason to assume that they would be disbanded simply because the MOD is no longer in charge. 

 

But you are right, lots to do to make Scotland prosperous once more - the most important being to take back control from Westminster. 

But Scotland does NOT have its own military at all.

 

All of the military based in Scotland comes under the control of the MoD in London. Sure the bases are there but they are NOT Scotland's. The personnel and the equipment would be pulled back to England and all the civilian jobs will be lost.

 

Did you know that the UK forces get an extra tax allowance for being posted to Scotland? The reason for that is because in addition to paying the UK standard income tax, Scotland imposes extra income tax on top for the military being there.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-44877483

 

Scotland does not have its own international legal currency either.

 

http://www.scotland.com/currency/

 

So if you break free whose money will you use? The hated GBP or something else?

[RuamRudy]

4 minutes ago, malagateddy said:

A R/R..just wondering where you were..still enjoying your ranting about how wonderful life would be in the inglorious scottish republic..otherwise known as a nonentity of the eu??!!

Sent from my SM-G7102 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

Hello Teddy! Not ranting, my friend - my days of getting hot under the collar are, thankfully, mainly in the past. But I am still hoping for a better future for Scotland. 

 

[melvinmelvin]

10 minutes ago, billd766 said:

I was in the RAF in Germany at the time and I don't remember getting a pamphlet.

 

But Scotland does NOT have its own military at all.

 

All of the military based in Scotland comes under the control of the MoD in London. Sure the bases are there but they are NOT Scotland's. The personnel and the equipment would be pulled back to England and all the civilian jobs will be lost.

 

Did you know that the UK forces get an extra tax allowance for being posted to Scotland? The reason for that is because in addition to paying the UK standard income tax, Scotland imposes extra income tax on top for the military being there.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-44877483

 

Scotland does not have its own international legal currency either.

 

http://www.scotland.com/currency/

 

So if you break free whose money will you use? The hated GBP or something else?

the reason you didna get a pamphlet was that you  were in raf, there they are called flyers - same thing really

 

extra tax allowance is in order to afford paying inflated prices for cask strength, compared to diluted wash sold duun south

 

[RuamRudy]

2 minutes ago, billd766 said:

But Scotland does NOT have its own military at all.

 

All of the military based in Scotland comes under the control of the MoD in London. Sure the bases are there but they are NOT Scotland's. The personnel and the equipment would be pulled back to England and all the civilian jobs will be lost.

 

Did you know that the UK forces get an extra tax allowance for being posted to Scotland? The reason for that is because in addition to paying the UK standard income tax, Scotland imposes extra income tax on top for the military being there.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-44877483

 

Scotland does not have its own international legal currency either.

 

http://www.scotland.com/currency/

 

So if you break free whose money will you use? The hated GBP or something else?

I am not sure that getting into a discussion with you about who gets what is a worthwhile exercise, especially as you are still using the same specious arguments that were trotted out in 2014.

 

How Scotland chooses to use its supplementary tax powers and spend is up to the Scottish government, which is chosen by the Scottish electorate. How many soldiers benefit from the reduced taxation of those who are lower paid? I presume that some of them benefit from free prescriptions, free tertiary education, additional free childcare etc.? 

 

[malagateddy]

Hello Teddy! Not ranting, my friend - my days of getting hot under the collar are, thankfully, mainly in the past. But I am still hoping for a better future for Scotland. 
 

Glad you're still with us..now Grouse..my other sparring partner..any idea where he's hiding?
Still honestly think you're flogging a dead horse re following your heart.
Still keeping in touch with my Glasgow mates..nhs Scotland getting worse..nurses and auxiliaries "chucking " it due to massive understaffing in hospitals/wards etc.
Staff being bullied into working their days off..too much stress and pressure.
A good mate of mine is now at home awaiting his death.
Diagnosed with cancer 8 months ago and had to wait over 10 weeks to see a Consultant..disgraceful.
THAT'S THE TRUTH.
The new Queen Elizabeth Hospital management could not run a raffle and remember that the SNP have been running the show for 12 years now?
Nuff said.
Cheers

Sent from my SM-G7102 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[RuamRudy]

8 minutes ago, malagateddy said:

Glad you're still with us..now Grouse..my other sparring partner..any idea where he's hiding?
Still honestly think you're flogging a dead horse re following your heart.
Still keeping in touch with my Glasgow mates..nhs Scotland getting worse..nurses and auxiliaries "chucking " it due to massive understaffing in hospitals/wards etc.
Staff being bullied into working their days off..too much stress and pressure.
A good mate of mine is now at home awaiting his death.
Diagnosed with cancer 8 months ago and had to wait over 10 weeks to see a Consultant..disgraceful.
THAT'S THE TRUTH.
The new Queen Elizabeth Hospital management could not run a raffle and remember that the SNP have been running the show for 12 years now?
Nuff said.
Cheers

Sent from my SM-G7102 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

Sorry to hear about your friend, Teddy - nobody would want or should expect such service from the NHS. 

Personally, I believe that the opposite of 'a rising tide lifts all ships' is also true. Most civic services across the UK are on their knees due to Westminster funding cuts. Why should we expect that Scotland would be immune to this? It is the spending decisions of the SG that are helping offset the worst of the effects of Westminster imposed, wholly unnecessary austerity, and helping SNHS at least try to achieve at least a basic level of service despite the funding challenges.

[mommysboy]

 

You wouldn't believe it. Maybe, all of us believe what we want to believe, which is why it's pointless trying to persuade otherwise.  Is it just Brexit? Personally, I don't think so- we have our dreams!  For instance, all it will take for the Tories to win the next election will be to announce a grand new era of house ownership and they'll be back in.

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/vote-leave-brexit-lies-eu-pay-money-remain-poll-boris-johnson-a8603646.html

[nauseus]

2 hours ago, melvinmelvin said:

I didn't mean your borders were in dispute, they are not, 'cause Scotland does not have any borders.

After jumping UK there will be borders all over the place, and these must be agreed with neighbours,

UK, Ireland?, Norway, Netherlands, Faroe Islands,

Belgium? Dunno - need to consult a map.

 

(and then there are these comprehensive economical sones - lots of miles - maybe crashing with Iceland and Greenland.

 Shetland is quite a bit north and west)

 

these are just a few of the issues;

Scotland does not have passports

no travel /visa agreements

no recognized satang

no stamps I would guess

have football teams and hooligans though

 

 

as part of becoming a recognized sovereign state there is a bunch of organizations in which membership

might be wise;

un + a host of its special agencies (few being upu-itu-imo-icao ++++), nato, european council, iso-ieee-cen-cenelec-etsi, wto - simply a bunch

 

its a huge project RR,

and while doing the necessary arm movements to become a recognised sovereign state spare time can usefully be

invested in establishing a comprehensive regulatory environment which will be requested by eu

 

scots in LoS need to come out of retirement

 

 

 

 

Edited October 27, 2018 by nauseus
Complete foul up - sorry

[nauseus]

4 hours ago, transam said:

And you are from...?  ????

Looks like somewhere not of this planet.

[Grouse]

4 hours ago, transam said:

And you are from...?  ????

Who cares where contributors come from? Are you OK Transam? 

[vinny41]

31 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

 

You wouldn't believe it. Maybe, all of us believe what we want to believe, which is why it's pointless trying to persuade otherwise.  Is it just Brexit? Personally, I don't think so- we have our dreams!  For instance, all it will take for the Tories to win the next election will be to announce a grand new era of house ownership and they'll be back in.

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/vote-leave-brexit-lies-eu-pay-money-remain-poll-boris-johnson-a8603646.html

Your correct about not believing this article, The Independent produces this articles on a regular basis but they never provide links to backup their claims. In this article they mention  Ipsos MORI  and King’s College London now if you view the websites of

IPOS MORI and King’s College London there no mention of the claims that the  Independent are stating

https://www.ipsos.com/ipsos-mori/en-uk/publics-brexit-predictions

https://www.kcl.ac.uk/sspp/policy-institute/publications/brexit-predictions.pdf

[mommysboy]

11 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

Your correct about not believing this article, The Independent produces this articles on a regular basis but they never provide links to backup their claims. In this article they mention  Ipsos MORI  and King’s College London now if you view the websites of

IPOS MORI and King’s College London there no mention of the claims that the  Independent are stating

https://www.ipsos.com/ipsos-mori/en-uk/publics-brexit-predictions

https://www.kcl.ac.uk/sspp/policy-institute/publications/brexit-predictions.pdf

I can't help notice that you decry every opinion poll!

[mommysboy]

It's not really a vote on the deal as such: it amounts to a Brexit Referendum.

 

'Tory, Labour and SNP members say they will table a “killer” amendment in favour of a public vote. The amendment, if passed, will state that acceptance of the prime minister’s deal must be dependent on a public vote taking place beforehand, in which people would be offered the choice of leaving on the terms of that deal, or staying in the EU.'

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/oct/27/jeremy-corbyn-second-brexit-vote-commons-amendment

[vinny41]

3 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

I can't help notice that you decry every opinion poll!

Yes you are correct But more so on the articles that don't provide links to the questions ask and numbers of people and if the people asked were mixture of people on the street ( some who may not have internet access or if the survey is just completed online) but i am of the opinion opinion poll are pointless and a waste of space as they always provide the postive outcome of who ever is paying for the poll, 

[mommysboy]

1 minute ago, vinny41 said:

Yes you are correct But more so on the articles that don't provide links to the questions ask and numbers of people and if the people asked were mixture of people on the street ( some who may not have internet access or if the survey is just completed online) but i am of the opinion opinion poll are pointless and a waste of space as they always provide the postive outcome of who ever is paying for the poll, 

I bet you'd believe it if it gave you the answer you wanted to hear.

[vinny41]

2 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

It's not really a vote on the deal as such: it amounts to a Brexit Referendum.

 

'Tory, Labour and SNP members say they will table a “killer” amendment in favour of a public vote. The amendment, if passed, will state that acceptance of the prime minister’s deal must be dependent on a public vote taking place beforehand, in which people would be offered the choice of leaving on the terms of that deal, or staying in the EU.'

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/oct/27/jeremy-corbyn-second-brexit-vote-commons-amendment

Labour wouldn't commit to a 2nd Referendum they know there chances of getting elected would be zero as a large number of  the 5.1 million Labour Leave voters will take their  votes elsewhere

[mommysboy]

1 minute ago, vinny41 said:

Labour wouldn't commit to a 2nd Referendum they know there chances of getting elected would be zero as a large number of  the 5.1 million Labour Leave voters will take their  votes elsewhere

Same argument applies to the Tories in reverse.  

 

 

[vinny41]

7 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

I bet you'd believe it if it gave you the answer you wanted to hear.

You Wrong as i stated before i am of the opinion opinion polls are pointless and a waste of space 

[mommysboy]

3 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

You Wrong as i stated before i am of the opinion opinion polls are pointless and a waste of space 

Anyway, here's another one for you to knock:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/aug/11/more-than-100-pro-leave-constituencies-switch-to-remain

 

[vinny41]

4 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

Same argument applies to the Tories in reverse.  

 

 

No with the Tories they know they will get annihilated in a General Election if they  don't implement the results of the 2016 EU Referendum

[vinny41]

1 minute ago, mommysboy said:

Anyway, here's another one for you to knock:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/aug/11/more-than-100-pro-leave-constituencies-switch-to-remain

 

That poll and the failings of that poll have already been rip to shreds in previous posts If you do a search you will find the posts

[billd766]

48 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

I can't help notice that you decry every opinion poll!

I gave up on believing opinion polls years ago.

 

For every opinion poll that says one thing you can always find one that says the opposite.

 

You can get most results that you want by starting with the answer you want, framing the questions you want answered and aiming it at the correct group.

[sandyf]

On 10/26/2018 at 8:31 PM, billd766 said:

But wasn't the Scottish referendum simply to stay within the UK or to become independent? Exactly the same as the Brexit referendum.

No Bill, they are not the same. There is a significant difference between a local referendum and a national referendum. The fact that there has only ever been 3 is a fairly good indication of how significant they are in UK politics. Local referendums address address a problem in a particular community, how can a referendum across a union be considered democratic when one part of the union has more say than the rest put together. People talk about the EU being intransigent in negotiations but Scotland has to accept that from Westminster on a daily basis.

Many in Scotland voted to remain with the UK because they did not like the plan that Alex Salmond put forward, that does not mean to say they did not support independence, a different leader with a different plan could have been a different result.

If Alex Salmond had foreseen how TM had planned to approach the brexit referendum and not published his white paper, who knows where we would be.

[nauseus]

17 minutes ago, sandyf said:

No Bill, they are not the same. There is a significant difference between a local referendum and a national referendum. The fact that there has only ever been 3 is a fairly good indication of how significant they are in UK politics. Local referendums address address a problem in a particular community, how can a referendum across a union be considered democratic when one part of the union has more say than the rest put together. People talk about the EU being intransigent in negotiations but Scotland has to accept that from Westminster on a daily basis.

Many in Scotland voted to remain with the UK because they did not like the plan that Alex Salmond put forward, that does not mean to say they did not support independence, a different leader with a different plan could have been a different result.

If Alex Salmond had foreseen how TM had planned to approach the brexit referendum and not published his white paper, who knows where we would be.

A local, not national, referendum for Scotland? Can you demonstrate this "significant difference"?

[billd766]

6 minutes ago, sandyf said:

No Bill, they are not the same. There is a significant difference between a local referendum and a national referendum. The fact that there has only ever been 3 is a fairly good indication of how significant they are in UK politics. Local referendums address address a problem in a particular community, how can a referendum across a union be considered democratic when one part of the union has more say than the rest put together. People talk about the EU being intransigent in negotiations but Scotland has to accept that from Westminster on a daily basis.

Many in Scotland voted to remain with the UK because they did not like the plan that Alex Salmond put forward, that does not mean to say they did not support independence, a different leader with a different plan could have been a different result.

If Alex Salmond had foreseen how TM had planned to approach the brexit referendum and not published his white paper, who knows where we would be.

I have to disagree with you Sandy.

 

Scotland is a nation and even the leading party is called the Scottish Nationalist Party. They voted as a nation to leave or remain in the union of 4 nations.

 

That they failed in their aim merely postponed another referendum for a few years probably until 2019 which is only 5 years and not 30 years. It does not matter to them that it was a once in a lifetime referendum. In fact they have had 4 and want another. 2 of them were for devolution, 1 for independence and they now want another. .

 

IMHO they are welcome to it but this time it should include ALL Scottish people who have the right to vote and NOT just those living in Scotland. The people who vote should be of voting age and there should be a super majority level set at (put your own figure in) %. If that majority is not reached then there must be no independence and no referendum for the next, say 10 years.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_referendum

 

Scottish referendum may refer to any one of several referendums in Scotland:

Scottish licensing referendum, 1920

Scottish devolution referendum, 1979

Scottish devolution referendum, 1997

Scottish independence referendum, 2014

2017 proposed independence referendum

[mommysboy]

Ronald's on a roll with his petition against a secind ref.

 

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/226071?fbclid=IwAR2u5Bc-C7lZyejv6DFUUy_mS8L046rDUDF4MYhqI3fm2rkE1IVLhGWIG1Y

 

Up to 60k plus.

[Guest]

23 hours ago, vinny41 said:

They should have limited the freedom of movement to the EU Grouping
The EU14 grouping includes citizens of Austria, Belgium, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Republic of Ireland, Italy, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Portugal, Spain and Sweden. Premier League

The EU8 grouping includes citizens of Czech Republic, Estonia, Hungry, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Slovakia and Slovenia. League One

The EU2 grouping includes citizens of Bulgaria and Romania League two

and like the Football tables these countries could move up or down depending on performance , gdp salaries Would Greece and Italy  still remain in the Premier League or would they be demoted to League One

Funny that you have still not been able to hide that you are copying text from your Leningrad database. 

 

I suppose you are eager to dismantle the EU-27. I'm afraid for you, it's not going to happen. We all know how fruitless it is to be Russia-1, against the rest of the World-200. Yes, Russia has some good friends like Venezuela and Cuba, but not many more. Those Russian friends, with their Putin style of regiments are not doing that well at all. 

 

So yes, you can try to get countries to go against each other, by their "Football" teams. It's the whole different game, where we should play by the Ruskie rules. 

 

Sorry, we do love our western freedoms much too much to play the game the way Russian oligarchs have accustomed to win the game. We simply say no. It's that simple. 

[Guest]

4 hours ago, billd766 said:

I was in the RAF in Germany at the time and I don't remember getting a pamphlet.

 

But Scotland does NOT have its own military at all.

 

All of the military based in Scotland comes under the control of the MoD in London. Sure the bases are there but they are NOT Scotland's. The personnel and the equipment would be pulled back to England and all the civilian jobs will be lost.

 

Did you know that the UK forces get an extra tax allowance for being posted to Scotland? The reason for that is because in addition to paying the UK standard income tax, Scotland imposes extra income tax on top for the military being there.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-44877483

 

Scotland does not have its own international legal currency either.

 

http://www.scotland.com/currency/

 

So if you break free whose money will you use? The hated GBP or something else?

Does England has it's own military or intelligent services? I guess when the time comes, when England or Scotland will depart from UK, those services will be split, quite like what happened when Soviet Union split. 

 

The same goes to the currency. Does England have it's own currency? 

[mommysboy]

1 minute ago, oilinki said:

Does England has it's own military or intelligent services? I guess when the time comes, when England or Scotland will depart from UK, those services will be split, quite like what happened when Soviet Union split. 

 

The same goes to the currency. Does England have it's own currency? 

When?

 

Everything belongs to the UK. The country which devolves has to make its own way.