UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

21 minutes ago, tebee said:

The problem  is that much of the British quota has been sold by those same fishermen to EU crewed boats. 

 

Repatriating it would presumably compensating the current owners 

 

I think the real problem is that British crews can't fish with impunity in our own territorial waters without facing legal action, they've had to deal with a 'totally lopsided system of quotas that has granted up to 84% of the rights to fish some local species, such as English Channel cod, to the French, and left as little as 9% to British boats.' 

 

Furthermore 'Despite only recently promising full fisheries independence as soon as Brexit day on 29 March 2019, the UK government this week capitulated to Brussels’ demand for it to remain part of the common fisheries system until at least 2021, when a transition phase is due to end'.

If indeed these British crews you mention sell their catches to EU crewed boats (any links to info supporting that?) then I would have to wonder why, unless they get a better price from those EU crewed boats for the catches, than they would from buyers on UK shores? Such as scallops and a few others, which the English fisherman are allowed to catch a big quota of, so I've heard.

 

It's another classic case of impinging on our sovereignty - or rather 'pooling it' ????.

Some of the best seafood in Europe is caught in traditionally British waters and is being pilfered by fishing crews that until recently would have been unjustifiably fishing well outside their own territorial waters. And just as us Brits as a nation have become more awakened in a 'culinary sense' and have started to eat and enjoy more of the excellent, top quality marine morsels available primarily in our own waters. Sad.

Edited November 1, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[tebee]

4 minutes ago, Patriot1066 said:

Most of factory boats are non UK

They are often UK flagged but not owned.

 

Read that article it is very informative. Also this one http://lifeplatform.eu/fishy-business-fish-pos-eu/

 

  Since the creation of the CFP in 1983 these core principles have been systematically ignored by Brussels and several member states, but most egregiously of all by successive UK governments. Small, coastal boats under 10 metres, which make up 77% of the English fleet, currently have the right to catch 3% of the total English catch of quota-controlled fish such as cod, haddock, plaice, sole, herring and mackerel.

 

Claims by Ukip and others that the British fishing industry has suffered a calamitous decline “because of the CFP” are misleading. The big British fishing companies and the big boats are doing fine, they are now the most prosperous in Europe, with record revenues in 2017 and operating profits averaging 25%.

 

 

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

7 minutes ago, tebee said:

They are often UK flagged but not owned.

 

Read that article it is very informative. Also this one http://lifeplatform.eu/fishy-business-fish-pos-eu/

 

  Since the creation of the CFP in 1983 these core principles have been systematically ignored by Brussels and several member states, but most egregiously of all by successive UK governments. Small, coastal boats under 10 metres, which make up 77% of the English fleet, currently have the right to catch 3% of the total English catch of quota-controlled fish such as cod, haddock, plaice, sole, herring and mackerel.

 

Claims by Ukip and others that the British fishing industry has suffered a calamitous decline “because of the CFP” are misleading. The big British fishing companies and the big boats are doing fine, they are now the most prosperous in Europe, with record revenues in 2017 and operating profits averaging 25%.

 

 

If this is factual, then it is yet more proof of the EUs cronyism with regard to big business, whilst acquiescing to the trampling of independent fishermen and their livelihoods. 'Looking after the little people' once again. I would doubt the veracity of those claims re: larger business too, take a look at what has happened to places like Grimsby and Fleetwood as a reality check.

Edited November 1, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[melvinmelvin]

14 minutes ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

 

I think British fishermen know just how they feel! 

well,

fisheries are crucial for Greenland, much more than it is in UK,

its their lifeblood really

 

Greenland opting out is not the most violent boat rocking for EU,

huge landmasses and ice masses, about 55 000 people I think,

the fisheries are very valuable though - and there might be oil/gas in the surroundings one thinks now

 

talkin about ice,

its a gimmick, but OK, in better supermarkets in Norway you can buy plastic bags with cut ice from Greenland

to chill down your drinks

have tried it a few times - it is different - the ice is about 2000 years old and created/stored under extremely high pressure

 

Greenland is more sovereign now than when it left EEC.

I think both Denmark and Greenland want to get rid of each other, but Denmark is still a fair amount of foreign policy 

related stuff on Greenland's behalf.

 

[melvinmelvin]

52 minutes ago, billd766 said:

Thank you. I had not realised that. ????

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Withdrawal_from_the_European_Union#Greenland

 

Greenland chose to leave the EU predecessor without also seceding from a member state. It initially voted against joining the EEC when Denmark joined in 1973, but because Denmark as a whole voted to join, Greenland, as a county of Denmark, joined too. When home rule for Greenland began in 1979, it held a new referendum and voted to leave the EEC. After wrangling over fishing rights, the territory left the EEC in 1985,[26] but remains subject to the EU treaties through association of Overseas Countries and Territories with the EU. This was permitted by the Greenland Treaty, a special treaty signed in 1984 to allow its withdrawal.[27]

 

Also French Algeria and Saint Barthelemy also left but they were part of France until they gained independence.

 

I do learn quite a lot from comments like yours that make me dig a little deeper into the unknown and research a bit more. 

yes, its quite intentional that I only offer half baked entries, forces the plebs/riffraff to do some research, good for 'em

 

I experience the same as you, see things I have low knowledge about, do some research - increase my knowledge, good

 

in that respect, this thread and the other HUGE Brexit thread, that Scott closed, represents a well of information

and a well of hooks for some further research 

 

couple of weeks ago I wanted to dig a bit re the NI border,

ended up spending 2-3 days researching EU and border arrangements and EU arrangements re, what shall I say; remote members/areas.

surprised me no end, that is an incredibly complex area, the pure number of hacks is LARGE, could quite fancy working with that for the Commission actually

 

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

'what happened to Stamford Bridge?, battle that is'

 

Sanglac (could be from old French - lake of blood) or Santlache (sand lake), in old English it was perhaps 'Senlac' - and it's been suggested that the Normans nicknamed the area 'blood lake' as a pun on the English 'sand lake', after the victory, which was very narrowly won by them, taking 6 or more hours to decide and which could have gone either way at a number of points throughout, so contemporaries reported. 

 

'The Norman chroniclers William of Jumièges and William of Poitiers who were contemporary with the Battle of Hastings did not record the site of the battle as Senlac and the Chronicle of Battle Abbey simply recorded the location in Latin as Bellum (Battle)'

'Later documents however indicate that the abbey had a tract of land known as Santlache (Sandlake) with the name Sandlake continuing for several centuries as a tithing in Battle'

 

What a lot of people don't realise is that Harold Godwinson and his army had been waiting for months for William 'the Bastard' to sail across the channel and engage them, but due to inclement weather he didn't do so. HG and his army had in fact just defeated a fighting force that had besieged the East Yorkshire village of Stamford Bridge after landing on it's nearby coast in Sept of 1066. Tostig (Harold G's little bro) had sought the assistance of the fearsome Harald Hardrada (king of Norway) in enacting revenge on his older brother and taking the crown of England in the process. So after annihilating a notorious Viking army after marching from Wessex on foot to Yorkshire, they then had to march back to the Sussex coast and do battle with the Normans (descendants of Vikings themselves) over 250 miles away only 3 weeks later. A hardy and industrious bunch those Anglo-Saxons!

 

Off topic I know but I love history so couldn't help myself. ????

We guessed! ????

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

24 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

well,

fisheries are crucial for Greenland, much more than it is in UK,

its their lifeblood really

 

Greenland opting out is not the most violent boat rocking for EU,

huge landmasses and ice masses, about 55 000 people I think,

the fisheries are very valuable though - and there might be oil/gas in the surroundings one thinks now

 

talkin about ice,

its a gimmick, but OK, in better supermarkets in Norway you can buy plastic bags with cut ice from Greenland

to chill down your drinks

have tried it a few times - it is different - the ice is about 2000 years old and created/stored under extremely high pressure

 

Greenland is more sovereign now than when it left EEC.

I think both Denmark and Greenland want to get rid of each other, but Denmark is still a fair amount of foreign policy 

related stuff on Greenland's behalf.

 

 

Right, I would agree that fishing is much more central to a country like Greenland's economy than it has been to the UK's for centuries, if ever.

That is beside the point and little consolation for you if you've happened to work in the fishing industry in the UK over the past 30 years, however.

 

I think most nation's economies would see a resurgence or at least and improvement outside of the EEA/EU and the sovereignty matter is unquestionable. Would be interesting to carry out a poll of Greenlanders (if that's the correct demonym?) or those from the aforementioned French Algeria or St.Barthelemy to see what their view of life both in and out of the EU amounted to. Very different economies/societies from the UK to be sure, but would be informative and interesting nonetheless.

 

The 2000yr old ice sounds cool. ????

Edited November 1, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[bristolboy]

40 minutes ago, tebee said:

They are often UK flagged but not owned.

 

Read that article it is very informative. Also this one http://lifeplatform.eu/fishy-business-fish-pos-eu/

 

  Since the creation of the CFP in 1983 these core principles have been systematically ignored by Brussels and several member states, but most egregiously of all by successive UK governments. Small, coastal boats under 10 metres, which make up 77% of the English fleet, currently have the right to catch 3% of the total English catch of quota-controlled fish such as cod, haddock, plaice, sole, herring and mackerel.

 

Claims by Ukip and others that the British fishing industry has suffered a calamitous decline “because of the CFP” are misleading. The big British fishing companies and the big boats are doing fine, they are now the most prosperous in Europe, with record revenues in 2017 and operating profits averaging 25%.

 

 

Something is a bit unclear. Who sets the quotas for how much small boats can catch vs. big boats? Is it the EU or the British Govt?

[mommysboy]

7 hours ago, Patriot1066 said:

I can't disagree with your comments yes and it could even spark a world recession.

 

Ive been paying down mortgages for years on our buy to let stuff as last time they crashed 2009 we got screwed not on rates actually, but LTV covenents..

 

 But I think we will get through and it will still be worth the risk. There are big risks staying in the EU especially the EUro collapsing and Italy could do that.

 

The issue is the political class who have screwed the deal we will get. We should have gone Canada +++ could have been sorted but no we ask the U to compromise on their 4 freedoms they simply can't even I know that, so I blame our lot for been weak and nieve, I work in the City and people are still taking commercial space despite the warnings, so they see opportunities in London post Brexit.

 

lets see there will be dome big changes but in my opinion worth it

 

 

Anyone with business sense would want a cohesive plan and not wild optimism.

[vogie]

2 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

Something is a bit unclear. Who sets the quotas for how much small boats can catch vs. big boats? Is it the EU or the British Govt?

Figures published by the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Defra) suggest Spain, Holland and non-EU state Iceland have already bought up almost 90 percent of the entire fishing quota of Wales, as well as more than half that assigned to England.

 

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/936790/brexit-news-eu-buy-uk-british-fishing-quotas

 

 

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

 

I think British fishermen know just how they feel! 

As far as British fishing goes take a look at the NFU comment from this:

http://nffo.org.uk/news/ten-reasons-why-fishing-should-not-be-part-of-a-transitional-deal-with-the-eu.html 

 

Particularly: 

 

10. Fisheries jurisdiction and fisheries negotiations were artificially and cynically bound into the CFP in 1973 to the UK’s systematic and lasting disadvantage. Not unnaturally, the EU 27 would like to continue that exploitative relationship because it works heavily to their advantage. There is a once-in-a-generation opportunity to take a different and better path and there is a heavy responsibility on our government not to drop the ball at this crucial point in history.

[nauseus]

Just now, vogie said:

Figures published by the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Defra) suggest Spain, Holland and non-EU state Iceland have already bought up almost 90 percent of the entire fishing quota of Wales, as well as more than half that assigned to England.

 

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/936790/brexit-news-eu-buy-uk-british-fishing-quotas

 

 

The interesting thing is that once out of the EU, these crappy quotas will be defunct anyway. ????

[mommysboy]

1 hour ago, billd766 said:

I agree it has to be reported somewhere.

 

However, IMO you like so many other people on both sides of Brexit are simply guessing what will happen. Nobody really knows as no country has ever tried to withdraw from the EU before.

 

Both the UK and the EU are each trying to get the best deal possible for themselves. The UK is committed to leave but are lead by a Remainer and the EU has said no to every proposal put before them and are on a collision course at which both sides will suffer.

 

I am of the wait and see crowd because nothing that I, you or anybody here on TVF can do to change anything so let whatever is going to happen, happen and accept it. You won't be able to change it no matter what Boris or Gina Millar says. 

Yes it is a guess and that was pretty much the tone of the whole thread. I do read widely though, both sides of the debate.  Spare a thought for those stuck in the middle on Brexit!

[Patriot1066]

8 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

Anyone with business sense would want a cohesive plan and not wild optimism.

No Brexit has cost

me plenty it is worth every single penny.

[vogie]

2 minutes ago, nauseus said:

The interesting thing is that once out of the EU, these crappy quotas will be defunct anyway. ????

It does say that the "UK will abide by the EUs common fisheries policy for 21 months after departure from the bloc"

 

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

11 minutes ago, nauseus said:

10. Fisheries jurisdiction and fisheries negotiations were artificially and cynically bound into the CFP in 1973 to the UK’s systematic and lasting disadvantage. Not unnaturally, the EU 27 would like to continue that exploitative relationship because it works heavily to their advantage. 

 

12 minutes ago, vogie said:

Figures published by the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Defra) suggest Spain, Holland and non-EU state Iceland have already bought up almost 90 percent of the entire fishing quota of Wales, as well as more than half that assigned to England.

 

Ah yes that famous socialist ethos. Spend other's money and eat other's fish! 

 

11 minutes ago, nauseus said:

There is a once-in-a-generation opportunity to take a different and better path and there is a heavy responsibility on our government not to drop the ball at this crucial point in history.

'Despite only recently promising full fisheries independence as soon as Brexit day on 29 March 2019, the UK government this week capitulated to Brussels’ demand for it to remain part of the common fisheries system until at least 2021, when a transition phase is due to end' excerpt from a Guardian report that I posted earlier.

 

Let's hope the 'opportunity' still exists to be taken in 2021. ????

Edited November 1, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[bristolboy]

8 minutes ago, vogie said:

Figures published by the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Defra) suggest Spain, Holland and non-EU state Iceland have already bought up almost 90 percent of the entire fishing quota of Wales, as well as more than half that assigned to England.

 

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/936790/brexit-news-eu-buy-uk-british-fishing-quotas

 

 

I was specifically referring to the fact that most of the fishing quota for british boats goes to large boats with a much small amount assigned to small boats. Who is it who  sets these respective quotas? The EU or the UK government. 

[Patriot1066]

3 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

Yes it is a guess and that was pretty much the tone of the whole thread. I do read widely though, both sides of the debate.  Spare a thought for those stuck in the middle on Brexit!

Yes must be hard to be in the middle. I think that’s why there needs to be some thought of that and we only win by an 8% margin. But I hope that there is still Brexit in leaving the EU without them still controlling us via the back door.

[kwilco]

4 hours ago, My Thai Life said:

Just as a matter of interest, do you subscribe to the FT? Because you never seem to quote the articles, just the headlines.

 

You're meant to read them yourself!

[melvinmelvin]

44 minutes ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

If this is factual, then it is yet more proof of the EUs cronyism with regard to big business, whilst acquiescing to the trampling of independent fishermen and their livelihoods. 'Looking after the little people' once again. I would doubt the veracity of those claims re: larger business too, take a look at what has happened to places like Grimsby and Fleetwood as a reality check.

 

I feel it is kinda unfair to shoot EU for this.

This is happening in most waters of the world, big boats with huge quotas survive and win

the plebs with small boats lose out and gradually dies

 

the regulatory frameworks are not designed for handling industrial multi-million dollar fishing

as well as coastal family and one man fishing

as well as part-time fishing when the farmer does not have to attend the fields

[nauseus]

2 minutes ago, vogie said:

It does say that the "UK will abide by the EUs common fisheries policy for 21 months after departure from the bloc"

 

Sorry, I meant out including any "transition" (which I don't see as properly out). 

[bristolboy]

Just now, melvinmelvin said:

 

I feel it is kinda unfair to shoot EU for this.

This is happening in most waters of the world, big boats with huge quotas survive and win

the plebs with small boats lose out and gradually dies

 

the regulatory frameworks are not designed for handling industrial multi-million dollar fishing

as well as coastal family and one man fishing

as well as part-time fishing when the farmer does not have to attend the fields

Your comment addresses another question I was holding in reserve: Are these quotas actually restricting fishing from small boats are are they simply reflective of the fact that there's not a lot of capacity in that sector?

[mommysboy]

Just now, Patriot1066 said:

No Brexit has cost

me plenty it is worth every single penny.

I understand the desire to leave, the insistence that it's done because a vote was won, and like anyone I would prefer an independent Britain forging ahead.

 

But I don't understand why so extreme? What is it about the EU that makes you feel like we are at the mercy of an invading army?

 

 

[Patriot1066]

1 minute ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

I feel it is kinda unfair to shoot EU for this.

This is happening in most waters of the world, big boats with huge quotas survive and win

the plebs with small boats lose out and gradually dies

 

the regulatory frameworks are not designed for handling industrial multi-million dollar fishing

as well as coastal family and one man fishing

as well as part-time fishing when the farmer does not have to attend the fields

I hate to say it but we need to become more like the French (There I said it) but only that we need more smaller boats landing fish at small ports.

[Patriot1066]

Just now, mommysboy said:

I understand the desire to leave, the insistence that it's done because a vote was won, and like anyone I would prefer an independent Britain forging ahead.

 

But I don't understand why so extreme? What is it about the EU that makes you feel like we are at the mercy of an invading army?

 

 

I live in North London we are the only English speaking in the whole block. All are EU citizens most on bennefits. I pay for as pay tax. My town apart from the multi nationals all the shops are in foreign languages. I go in local shops and get treated less well than their own people.

 

thats without doctors apointments etc

 

many of us feel alienated it’s not a nice place anymore.

 

 

[Patriot1066]

4 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

Your comment addresses another question I was holding in reserve: Are these quotas actually restricting fishing from small boats are are they simply reflective of the fact that there's not a lot of capacity in that sector?

I think our government has some blame as had the power who and how they gave licences EU issue our great political class screwed up further

[candide]

22 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

Something is a bit unclear. Who sets the quotas for how much small boats can catch vs. big boats? Is it the EU or the British Govt?

That's a good question. Moreover, shouldn't it be understood as 3% reserved for small boats (that big fleets are not allowed to catch), rather than the contrary.

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

21 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

I was specifically referring to the fact that most of the fishing quota for british boats goes to large boats with a much small amount assigned to small boats. Who is it who  sets these respective quotas? The EU or the UK government. 

 

20 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

I feel it is kinda unfair to shoot EU for this.

This is happening in most waters of the world, big boats with huge quotas survive and win

the plebs with small boats lose out and gradually dies

 

the regulatory frameworks are not designed for handling industrial multi-million dollar fishing

as well as coastal family and one man fishing

as well as part-time fishing when the farmer does not have to attend the fields

 

Yeh, you may have half a point, I admit; commercial vs independent, who will win in the long run? Especially in today's world. No-brainer.

 

But...I think the wider point and the real imposition is the fact that there is a quota for fish caught in our own waters for either comm. or ind., at all.

 

Regulation within the British fishing industry is a separate issue, any criticism of that can't really be leveled at the EU, at least directly. The commercial enterprises both British and foreign are not only slowly asphyxiating their independent or part time counterparts by taking the lions share, but it's also - for British vessles - a controlled amount (of many species) that they can even catch in the first place within British waters. Double whammy for the SME fishermen / companies. So I think an accusation of cronyism is fair to an extent, but not only within the EU, the UK government is culpable and should be held accountable too. Just looking at towns like Grimsby as a prime example, the biggest employer and major industry was and always has been fishing, larger British fishing companies operated out of that port city too, and they are slowly dying, being fractions of the size they used to be. There's a reason for that.

Edited November 1, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[melvinmelvin]

14 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

Your comment addresses another question I was holding in reserve: Are these quotas actually restricting fishing from small boats are are they simply reflective of the fact that there's not a lot of capacity in that sector?

have no real knowledge of this - only what I see in newspapers now and then (I just eat fish)

 

limited capacity is a challenge, the degree of limitation varies from year to year

the opening up for trading in quotas is, by many I think, considered as not good for small efforts

big boats buy quotas and make shitloads

 

In countries around the world, you see examples of governments purchasing small boats

and then demolish them to get 'em out of the quota market (happens in Norway)

 

dunno,

seems to me that a major rethink re fisheries regulation is needed

must make room for;

bigbig fishers

small stuff/famiy style fishing

part time fishing

 

 

re quotas

I am reasonably sure that the Commission does not set boat quotas,

that I believe is done locally

Edited November 1, 2018 by melvinmelvin
extra

[Patriot1066]

8 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Sorry, I meant out including any "transition" (which I don't see as properly out). 

It’s not out at all!!