UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[Chelseafan]

2 minutes ago, oilinki said:

What is included to the 2%? Buying expensive fighters and other equipment from USA, making a nice profit for the US military contractors?

 

How about aftermath of the wars. Refugee management, rebuilding? Should those be included with the 2% defence budgets as well?

 

And expensive fighters in Europe such as the Eurofighter for example. What about profits for BAE, Airbus, Lombard and EU military contractors ?

 

I've no idea if the aftermath is included, one presumes it is but you'd have to ask someone better informed than myself I do know for example that there are 13,000 NATO troops trying to keep the peace in CAR, they are also in Afghanistan and Kosvo.  NATO also delivers disaster relief operations around the world.

Anyhow a tad off-topic.

 

 

 

[Grouse]

12 hours ago, vogie said:

I do not believe for one minute you actually mean that. You post to provoke sometimes, you are not stupid and you have more sense than believe such hogwash. However, again if we look at who is posting what, the nonsense posts do seem to eminate from the remainers, only a percentage, but not a small percentage. The majority of remainers do normally act with decorum, but you have in your crowd some that will post anything that will offend and it doesn't bother them, why, well quite possibly they are not as bright as you would like.

The balance of intelligence from your side is I'm afraid, not in your favour. ????

I respect your opinion as always.

 

Any chance of you applying for the European army CO job?

[Grouse]

12 hours ago, nontabury said:

At the moment it’s just a Draft agreement. And from what is now becoming clear, is that 4 or 5 senior members of the cabinet have decided to remain in their position, in the hope that they can pressurize T.May into either, making the E.U compromise on a couple of points, or failing that,they will resign from the cabinet. Therefore only time will tell what is actually happening behind closed doors.

 In the meantime a number of Conservative M.P’s have returned to their constituencies, to be told by their local officials, that they should follow the wish of their constituents and the country as a hold, and demand that T.May adheres to her promise to implement the electorates decision.

They should do what they, themselves, after listening to their constituents. They are not bound in any way to follow the majority

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

48 minutes ago, vogie said:

I would pick them anytime over Juncker, Verhofstadt et al.

Yup. No brainer! And yes they're independently wealthy, two of the 3 you referenced come from middle/upper-middle class backgrounds, but I never understood their admonishment by many, for their background or wealth (never denied by any of them) - Verhofstadt, Juncker, Barroso and Shcultz are all independently wealthy men too of course, they draw their salaries (as does Nigel) for serving corporatism and cronyism however and seem to care nothing for electorates or true democracy. Despite continued attempts to discredit them, the 3 that you referenced have actually retained their integrity and reputation as politicians and are still well liked by many across the UK and beyond, having been re-elected many times in their own constituencies. This integrity is evidenced in their candid support of parliamentary democracy and I can understand why Davies would continue this through to resigning from his position as Brexit Minister as he was clearly being ham-stringed in that role - as we can now understand more clearly given the last 72 hours' events.

 

Most importantly, whatever your opinion of Farage, Davies or Mogg, they have all been elected to their positions (current and former) by the electorate, whether as an MP or an MEP.

 

The same cannot be said about Juncker, Barroso, Van Rompuy or Schultz! 

 

EDIT: I unintentionally replaced Johnson (as per Oilinki's post) with Davies. ???? Still, the point remains.

Edited November 19, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[Grouse]

12 hours ago, vinny41 said:

Your Right to Know:

The ERG have this morning also published "Your Right to Know". A 7 page synopsis of the 500+ pages our uncivil servants had penned for us, which is (unlike the very lengthy version), in Plain English.

http://2mbg6fgb1kl380gtk22pbxgw-wpen...ht-to-Know.pdf

Nothing is perfect 

 

and neither is this summary

 

The 39B is not in exchange for anything. It is for commitments already signed up to. The fact that they put that at the top of the list demonstrates that this is a political document giving a one sided view.

 

The most important disadvantage is our lack of leverage for future decisions. I would vote against acceptance even though every attempt has been made to come up with a solution that is least damaging

 

Bin it. And remain

[Grouse]

12 hours ago, nontabury said:

Thanks to the E.U.

Should that not be Thanks to NATO. An Organisation paid for, primarily by the USA and the U.K. 

No, thanks to EU is correct

 

How has NATO prevented internecine wars?

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

5 minutes ago, Grouse said:

No, thanks to EU is correct

 

How has NATO prevented internecine wars?

How, might I ask, has the EU?

[Grouse]

12 hours ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

You leavers should be thanking us triumphal remoaners from saving you from a 30 baht pound rather than bitterly deriding our devious ways to win a war. Remind what exactly are we doing on March 29th at great expense.  

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/nov/18/buoyant-labour-plans-strategies-to-make-no-deal-brexit-impossible

Labour are just a super screwed up as the Tories. Complete lack of clarity. If Corbyn was fired, Labour could sweep in and sweep up

[vogie]

How anyone can even consider even being a member of this BBC (bully boys club) defies all logic.

 

 

[whatsupdoc]

Why, oh why, do some Brexiteers have such an obsession with Selmayr? By the way, I find the Iain Dale statement very, very hard to believe.

Probably yet another Brexiteer getting so desperate that he feels the need to spread lies..... 

[transam]

9 minutes ago, whatsupdoc said:

Why, oh why, do some Brexiteers have such an obsession with Selmayr? By the way, I find the Iain Dale statement very, very hard to believe.

Probably yet another Brexiteer getting so desperate that he feels the need to spread lies..... 

????

[melvinmelvin]

3 hours ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

Surely the alternative would be a Trotskyite nutter wrapped in the soviet flag? J M !? no thanks!!!

 

Hilarity ensues once again, I see. Project Fear is alive and well on TVF as well as the MSM. ???? Quite a whopper, even by Tebee's standards though, is this one! Where will the youth of the UK emigrate to en-masse I wonder - will they try their luck in one of the wealth of economic miracles within the Eurozone perhaps!? ???? With varying rates of 'youth unemployment' ranging from 12% - 50% all I'd say is good luck to them. For those under 31 Australia might represent a better bet. ????

 

 

Looks like this draft deal isn't fit to be used as toilet paper. A 'Hard Brexit' never looked more appealing, if only to end this tiresome charade of Europhiles posing as dissidents. This premise was doomed to fail from day one with May in charge. Now her, Robbins and a few other traitorous wimps are apparently trying their best to stitch up the public. Here's to hoping there's someone with enough nuts to stand against Mrs. May and call for a confidence vote asap. 

 

Also, please correct me if I have misunderstood this article of parliament, but if the DUP (who are equally aggrieved by this draft-deal) remove their support for May / the Tories and side with Lab. with an understanding going forward - this could mean Cons would lose their majority in parliament - and so there wouldn't be any need for an election IF Labour can form a government backed by the DUP. This was the case in years gone by - there wouldn't be a call for an election if the opposition can form a new government - with a majority in parliament. That prospect is a little unsettling, but adds yet another dimension to proceedings. Would JC really renege on his promises that 'the people have spoken ' and 'Brexit should mean Brexit '? Would he call for a referendum or would he go ahead and attempt tp negotiate a better deal or go full HB? I don't think he could get away with anything but some form of Brexit at this point, but would a deal struck by his lot be any better? I doubt it. What poison might Comrade McDonnell et al pour into his ear, before the opportunity to remain is lost for good? Could that affect his decision? He seems to listen to these cretins far too much already.

 

All hypothetical, but what is for sure is that this deal - as understood properly once the fine-print has been read -has the unique distinction of enraging both sides of the HoC as well as both Remoaners and Brexiteers.

 

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-11-17/40-hidden-horrors-theresa-mays-brexit-deal

 

 

 

agree with a bunch of points you make

 

I kinda doubt Tory has the guts to ditch TM, not betting a lot here, but I would not be surprised if she continues

Likewise, I kinda doubt that the UK parliament would have the guts to vote down the current deal.

 

Ahh, almost forgot, maybe the deal ain't no good for bum wiping.

However, this should properly do your bum

 

 

 

trump-paper.docx

 

 

Edited November 19, 2018 by melvinmelvin

[mommysboy]

3 hours ago, vogie said:

A nice perspective from David Davis.

 

 

'A nice perspective from David Davis.'

 

An oxymoron if ever there was!

[dick dasterdly]

14 hours ago, vogie said:

I do not believe for one minute you actually mean that. You post to provoke sometimes, you are not stupid and you have more sense than believe such hogwash. However, again if we look at who is posting what, the nonsense posts do seem to eminate from the remainers, only a percentage, but not a small percentage. The majority of remainers do normally act with decorum, but you have in your crowd some that will post anything that will offend and it doesn't bother them, why, well quite possibly they are not as bright as you would like.

The balance of intelligence from your side is I'm afraid, not in your favour. ????

I'm confused as to why so many consider Grouse intelligent - bearing in mind most of his comments are pure insults against anyone with a different opinion??!

[mommysboy]

2 hours ago, billd766 said:

How so? The Brexit campaign is led by Teresa May who is a remainer, the majority of the cabinet ministers who have resigned were on the side of Brexit leaving the Brexit negotiations to the Remainers who are actually the ones who are screwing things up. 

QED

[melvinmelvin]

2 hours ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

I actually wouldn’t be surprised if the Brexiteers suggested to run the country based on fortune cookie wisdoms. 

don't underestimate old Chinese wisdom

 

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

38 minutes ago, whatsupdoc said:

Why, oh why, do some Brexiteers have such an obsession with Selmayr? By the way, I find the Iain Dale statement very, very hard to believe.

Probably yet another Brexiteer getting so desperate that he feels the need to spread lies..... 

Not I.Dale's quote, he is in fact quoting Sunday Times' reporters T.Shipman and C.Wheeler / O.Wright - Policy Editor, themselves quoting sources very close to D.Raab.

 

It sounds very plausible to me. It was held up recently as the latest and largest problem with the UK leaving the CU / SM, but in fact this is surely an issue that could be resolved in time with some thought, bilateral concessions and attention to detail. It is not insuperable.

 

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-43473807

 

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1020576/brexit-news-irish-border-blockchain-technology-hard-border-northern-ireland

Edited November 19, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[dick dasterdly]

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

Nothing is perfect 

 

and neither is this summary

 

The 39B is not in exchange for anything. It is for commitments already signed up to. The fact that they put that at the top of the list demonstrates that this is a political document giving a one sided view.

 

The most important disadvantage is our lack of leverage for future decisions. I would vote against acceptance even though every attempt has been made to come up with a solution that is least damaging

 

Bin it. And remain

As pointed out in the article,  this is not the case - unless you consider that the uk should contribute towards those previously unfunded projects.

 

And let's not even get into the uk paying towards the future pension of eu MPs and bureacracy!

[whatsupdoc]

11 minutes ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

Not I.Dale's quote, he is in fact quoting Sunday Times' reporters T.Shipman and C.Wheeler / O.Wright - Policy Editor, themselves quoting sources very close to D.Raab.

 

It sounds very plausible to me. It was held up recently as the latest and largest problem with the UK leaving the CU / SM, but in fact this is surely an issue that could be resolved in time with some thought, bilateral concessions and attention to detail. It is not insuperable.

 

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-43473807

 

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1020576/brexit-news-irish-border-blockchain-technology-hard-border-northern-ireland

You seem to misunderstand me. I do not believe that Mr. Selmayr has boasted that losing NI is the price the UK has to pay for Brexit.

Words might have been taken out of context or otherwise twisted.

However, I do not dispute that there is a chance of NI leaving the UK. It would solve some of the Brexit problems (and likely create others....).

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

44 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

agree with a bunch of points you make

 

I kinda doubt Tory has the guts to ditch TM, not betting a lot here, but I would not be surprised if she continues

Likewise, I kinda doubt that the UK parliament would have the guts to vote down the current deal.

 

Ahh, almost forgot, maybe the deal ain't no good for bum wiping.

However, this should properly do your bum

 

 

 

trump-paper.docx

 

 

Glad we agree on something for a change!

I don't see TM lasting past the end of this month. I don't yet know if anyone has: 

a) thrown their hat in the ring to become new party leader (they haven't publicly from what I can see) or

b) strong enough support to replace her should the 48 letters be sent and received. 

 

I strongly disagree that the UK parliament won't have the guts to vote down the deal, it would seem to me that to NOT vote it down would take more guts than to do so... as it is a betrayal of those on both sides of the argument in the HoC not to mention the public of the nation. As a deal - it is utter horse**** and would only subjugate the UK further with less representation than at present. The bigger question to me is what will the DUP do now? It will rest on the vote on this 'draft deal' ... and what will happen re: May's leadership, should the 48 letters be sent this week?, as I'm willing to bet they will be.

IMHO - the sooner she goes, the better. Davies, Gove or Johnson may rear their heads re: leadership contest. There are considerably slim pickings at the moment, of those who could conceivably become 'the incumbent' - I'd say D.Davis in charge would probably be optimal. In any case, I'd much rather a Brexiteer at the helm - that should have surely been a given from day one? Someone who both understands the detail and has the determination and nous to negotiate from a confident and pragmatic standpoint - that ain't May. 

 

 

And yeh, this does indeed look deluxe. Do you assume I'm a Trump fan or? I can't quite work that bit out ????  

Edited November 19, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[beautifulthailand99]

2 hours ago, SheungWan said:

So there we have it. Now add the Tory Cabinet to the High Courts, the Supreme Court, the House of Lords. All Enemies Of The People.

As is the Mail now it has gone full Stop Brexit / Back May - leavers in disarray - as Graham Bright accuses them of lying about numbers , Barnier says we can transition to 2022 - the Fix is in.

[beautifulthailand99]

1 hour ago, whatsupdoc said:

Why, oh why, do some Brexiteers have such an obsession with Selmayr? By the way, I find the Iain Dale statement very, very hard to believe.

Probably yet another Brexiteer getting so desperate that he feels the need to spread lies..... 

Dale should hang his head in shame  - he is no idiot but has been a major intellect on the Brexiteer front.

[beautifulthailand99]

52 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

agree with a bunch of points you make

 

I kinda doubt Tory has the guts to ditch TM, not betting a lot here, but I would not be surprised if she continues

Likewise, I kinda doubt that the UK parliament would have the guts to vote down the current deal.

 

Ahh, almost forgot, maybe the deal ain't no good for bum wiping.

However, this should properly do your bum

 

 

 

trump-paper.docx

 

 

Just so you know about Zero Hedge  - Putin lurvin' anti-semetic hate site (just read the comments)

 

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Zero_Hedge

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

11 minutes ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

Just so you know about Zero Hedge  - Putin lurvin' anti-semetic hate site (just read the comments)

 

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Zero_Hedge

Utter rubbish, as usual.

But very informative of your views of independent media and well, hey!, If it's on RationalWiki it must be non-partisan, totally correct and beyond reproach. The factual analysis from this report is in fact a direct (and credited) quote of information from 'The Spectator' - or are they also a 'bat-shit' crazy, antisemitic rag?... 

 

...and if so, what would you recommend browsing for fair, impartial and factual reporting - The FT, The Independent or The Guardian I guess, right!? ????

Edited November 19, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[damascase]

52 minutes ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

 

 

 

 

Wrong. Turkey is not in the EU Customs Union. It has - since 1995 - a Customs Union agreement based on the 1963 agreement between the - then - EEC and Turkey, with a scope limited to industrial and processed agricultural products. When you bring such goods into the EU, you have to prove that the conditions of the Customs Union Agreement have been fulfilled, otherwise duties are due.

 

Edited November 19, 2018 by damascase

[sandyf]

3 hours ago, billd766 said:

Since the end of the war in 1945, long before the EU was conceived, peace in Europe was upheld by the countries in NATO, and in case you had not noticed NATO is still around.

 

IF it is decided to form a European Military, not just an Army, does that mean that the EU will abandon NATO?

Why one or the other? NATO was formed before the EU so what would be the problem with the EU member states restructuring as one member of NATO. Certainly simplify the overall structure and after all the HQ is in Brussels.

No doubt the anti EU brigade will have 1001 reasons why not, even though it would have nothing to do with them.

[melvinmelvin]

8 minutes ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

Glad we agree on something for a change!

I don't see TM lasting past the end of this month. I don't yet know if anyone has: 

a) thrown their hat in the ring to become new party leader (they haven't publicly from what I can see) or

b) strong enough support to replace her should the 48 letters be sent and received. 

 

I strongly disagree that the UK parliament won't have the guts to vote down the deal, it would seem to me that to NOT vote it down would take more guts than to do so... as it is a betrayal of those on both sides of the argument in the HoC not to mention the public of the nation. As a deal - it is utter horse**** and would only subjugate the UK further. The bigger question to me is what will the DUP do now, which will rest on the vote on this 'draft deal'... and what will happen with May, should the 48 letters be sent this week?, as I'm willing to bet they will be.

IMHO - the sooner she goes, the better. Davies, Gove or Johnson may rear their heads re: leadership contest. There are considerably slim pickings at the moment, of those who could conceivably become 'the incumbent' - I'd say D.Davis in charge would probably be optimal. In any case, I'd much rather a Brexiteer at the helm - that should have surely been a given from day one? Someone who both understands the detail and has the determination and nous to negotiate from a confident and pragmatic standpoint - that ain't May. 

 

 

And yeh, this does indeed look deluxe. Do you assume I'm a Trump fan or? I can't quite work that bit out ????  

 

the loo paper, just a joke on your observation that the deal ain't even suitable for bumwiping

the pic above is the best pic I have of bum wipers, and the story behind it is just great

 

I think you somewhat underestimate the effects of project fear. MPs ain't particularly smart, I expect

that several would be too skeptical (ie scared - lack of confidence) to vote down the deal and go hard.

 

As long as the deal is in movement there is a point in keeping TM,

she knows the EU mgt and she knows the heads of state/pm circle, and they know her

that is undoubtedly an advantage

any TM replacement would need considerable time to build relationship, trust and MO

 

As soon as deal is no longer in play - TM should go ASAP.

A terrible

mistake with her as PM.

I think only UK could do smth like this - putting a remainer in charge of Brexit.

She shocked me hard, 4 times, since becoming PM

a) pretty soon after being PM she announced her plan to bypass parliament - wild public discussions

    went to court and lost solidly

 

 b)  keeping quiet? nee way - shouting loud - pushing to higher court

     loosing solidly again

 

bloody hell, having a PM with so shaky knowledge of what goes and what does not go within the

UK legal framework is frightening to say the least

 

c) snappy GE, very bright what the f for, she had majority - geez - not a good grip on reality

 

d) offering Tory/UK to the DUP so that they can hold UK at ransom - geeeez again

 

e) yes, one more DDavies, nothing wrong with him per se, me thinks, but it was so bloody obvious from

   a very very early stage that he would not be able to produce worth zilch together with Barnier,

   those two quite simply do not go together,

   DD should have been shifted out long long time ago

 

 

 

 

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

13 minutes ago, damascase said:

with a scope limited to industrial and processed agricultural products. When you bring such goods into the EU, you have to prove that the conditions of the Customs Union Agreement have been fulfilled, otherwise duties are due

Fair enough. I will admit I was unaware of that detail, too.

 

However, it seems that the majority of the exports/imports from NI to RoI are broadly similar to those you outline in the 1963 agreement:

 

Machinery and transport equipment (Industrial goods)  - and Agribusinesses.

 

 

'conditions of the Customs Union Agreement have been fulfilled' - and I would imagine that NI and RoI have more comparable operating conditions than Turkey and the EU do, so there'd be less of an issue in meeting agreements and QA checks etc. I may be wrong though, just a guess.

Edited November 19, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[tebee]

Instead of making a glorious leap to independence, Britain will become a satellite orbiting the European planet, obliged to follow rules it will have no say in devising.

 

This is an exercise in damage limitation, not a bold break from the recent past. But the question is whether the British political system is capable of resigning itself to this least bad outcome.

 

Oscar Wilde’s Lady Bracknell did not quite say that when a government loses its mind it may be regarded as a misfortune but when the opposition does so as well, it begins to look like carelessness.

 

https://www.nybooks.com/daily/2018/11/13/how-brexit-broke-up-britain/

[tebee]

The Brexit saga will go on for years

 

The deal agreed between the United Kingdom and the European Union has detonated the biggest political dispute in British politics since Neville Chamberlain came back from Munich in 1938 waving a leaf of paper and proclaiming he had won “Peace in our time”, writes Denis MacShane.

 

https://www.euractiv.com/section/uk-europe/opinion/mon-the-brexit-saga-will-go-on-for-years/