UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[dick dasterdly]

1 minute ago, dick dasterdly said:

To be fair, Farage arranging dual nationality for his family is of interest.

 

Just now, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

I don't really see why. So because he wants the UK to leave the EU his offspring cannot or should not take advantage of their mother's heritage? 

 

It has nothing to do with the reasons for leaving the EU. His kids are simply lucky that they are dual national - like mine is, as are my cousins. I envy their dual nationality, but again is it reason enough to stay in the EU ?  It is undoubtedly the biggest (for me the only tangible positive) of remaining in the EU - the ability to travel and work visa-free, but is it worth the multitude of cons that go along with it? Not a chance, especially when you can apply for a visa and (depending on certain criteria being fulfilled) can experience the same benefits in most regards. I imagined you'd agree with this Dick, judging by your record on here? 

"I don't really see why. So because he wants the UK to leave the EU his offspring cannot or should not take advantage of their mother's heritage?"

 

Yes.

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

12 minutes ago, StreetCowboy said:

As I understand, freedom of movement is one of the key issues, one of the first freedoms that Farage would like to take away.

Leaving the single market is what advocates he and what 17.4m voted for, 'depriving others' of a right that has only existed since Maastricht isn't the right way to phrase it. The argument for leaving the single market / customs and allowing unchecked free movement of people in is much more profoundly important than Brits being able to travel and work on the continent - visa free. They will still continue to of course, simply WITH A VISA.

 

You could argue that it is all very well for Farage to talk about restricting others' and their children's rights abroad when his children are dual national , but this is simply an accident of fate - THEY ARE DUAL NATIONAL by their very heritage and that's it. Unless the sole reason he courted, married and impregnated his fraulein was to ensure dual national offspring, I think he should be given a break on this issue. After all, anyone else can do the same as he has now (before) OR after Brexit occurs, it's not a rich man's prerogative, literally anyone can do it for their children. I have, for one.

Edited November 20, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

Don't follow your logic there at all.

 

The ONLY argument that could be made is that it could have been more tactful to delay such a process until later? I don't know the detail of when this happened or why. Other than that, as I said it's not as if dual nationality for children is some kind of luxury, it is unobtainable by / for literally anyone on earth, given they/their offspring satisfy the correct criteria.

[dick dasterdly]

Just now, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

I don't really see why. So because he wants the UK to leave the EU his offspring cannot or should not take advantage of their mother's heritage? 

 

It has nothing to do with the reasons for leaving the EU. His kids are simply lucky that they are dual national - like mine is, as are my cousins. I envy their dual nationality, but again is it reason enough to stay in the EU ?  It is undoubtedly the biggest (for me the only tangible positive) of remaining in the EU - the ability to travel and work visa-free, but is it worth the multitude of cons that go along with it? Not a chance, especially when you can apply for a visa and (depending on certain criteria being fulfilled) can experience the same benefits in most regards. I imagined you'd agree with this Dick, judging by your record on here? 

It has nothing to do with the reasons for leaving the EU. His kids are simply lucky that they are dual national - like mine is, as are my cousins. I envy their dual nationality, but again is it reason enough to stay in the EU ?  It is undoubtedly the biggest (for me the only tangible positive) of remaining in the EU - the ability to travel and work visa-free, but is it worth the multitude of cons that go along with it? Not a chance, especially when you can apply for a visa and (depending on certain criteria being fulfilled) can experience the same benefits in most regards. I imagined you'd agree with this Dick, judging by your record on here? 

 

I'm only talking about Farage (the prime advocate for leaving the eu), obtaining dual nationality for his family.  It's so hypocritical.

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

4 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

It has nothing to do with the reasons for leaving the EU. His kids are simply lucky that they are dual national - like mine is, as are my cousins. I envy their dual nationality, but again is it reason enough to stay in the EU ?  It is undoubtedly the biggest (for me the only tangible positive) of remaining in the EU - the ability to travel and work visa-free, but is it worth the multitude of cons that go along with it? Not a chance, especially when you can apply for a visa and (depending on certain criteria being fulfilled) can experience the same benefits in most regards. I imagined you'd agree with this Dick, judging by your record on here? 

 

I'm only talking about Farage (the prime advocate for leaving the eu), obtaining dual nationality for his family.  It's so hypocritical.

Again, I don't really see how it is.

 

For the reasons I have stated above. They are entitled to dual nationality via the heritage of their mother, not from him, as would any number of other people in the UK now or after Brexit, some of which probably voted to Leave - does that make them hypocrites too? It could be a little tactless to apply for it now, but again - do you know it was his decision? Could well be his wife's or his childrens'.

 

Edited November 20, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[Stupooey]

18 hours ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

 

In my view we should simply stop wasting everyone's time and put someone (a Leaver) at the helm who takes the position to leave asap on WTO rules - and then get on with it. Let the sky fall and the four horseman ride yada yada yada...

 

Perhaps they should keep on voting in new PMs until they get it right.

[billd766]

1 hour ago, StreetCowboy said:

As if anyone would want to go to any of those countries anyway, when you have all of Britain as your playground.

But if you did want to go there simply get a visa, as you have to in many other countries.

 

It isn't rocket science.

[AlexRich]

26 minutes ago, StreetCowboy said:

As I understand, freedom of movement is one of the key issues, one of the first freedoms that Farage would like to take away.

 

And he’s still taking money from the EU, and probably always will as they will be paying his pension. 

 

A lot of the elderly voted Brexit because they are sitting in mortgage free houses with nice pensions ... if it goes wrong they won’t suffer. They’ll get a shock when Mr Corbyn introduces wealth taxes to pay for his nationalisation and state spending plans.

 

 

[JAG]

50 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Overall,the EU arrangements have been of significant benefit to UK consumers both in price and quality. You may believe that the UK is stronger with 60 million rather than 700 million but that is up to you.

The EU does not negotiate with certain types of government, obviously you would be happy for the UK to deal with any type of government.

The EU does not make deals with countries that do not respect its rules and regulations, obviously you would be happy for the UK to make any deal irrespective of rules and regulations.

 

The EU regulations and standards are their for a reason but to those with EU paranoia it is nothing more than unnecessary bureaucracy.

You make assumptions...

Nowhere have I said anything that supports those assumptions.

 

My post argues that the UK, when it is no longer a member of the EU should be able to make it's own decisions on trade (decisions made by the government elected by it's own people) rather than have decisions and policies on trade imposed.

 

Perhaps using that argument to justify the (completely unfounded) assumptions which you have made reveals some paranoia on your part?

 

Q

[dick dasterdly]

1 minute ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

Again, I don't really see how it is.

 

For the reasons I have stated above. They are entitled to dual nationality via the heritage of their mother, not from him, as would any number of other people in the UK now or after Brexit, some of which probably voted to Leave - does that make them hypocrites too? It could be a little tactless to apply for it now, but again - do you know it was his decision? Could well be his wife's or his childrens'.

 

Has he or his family expressed any interest in living in Germany?

 

So why apply for dual nationality now?

[AlexRich]

1 minute ago, billd766 said:

But if you did want to go there simply get a visa, as you have to in many other countries.

 

It isn't rocket science.

A lot of people fancied the idea of retiring in Europe, that’s screwed up now ... I don’t think holiday plans were ever the issue.

[billd766]

1 hour ago, sandyf said:

I don't know where you get your 2 organisations from, certainly not from my comments. As far as I am aware the only proposal on the table is closer co-operation between existing entities so nothing new. The UK are not included as far as the EU are concerned they are out already.

The reality is that there is very little chance of the EU ever becoming a NATO member, as it is in the WTO, the US would never allow it, as far as they are concerned division is the name of the game.

The 2 organisation are the existing NATO forces and the EU wannabe military force, if it ever happens

 

Many EU countries are already in NATO, and the EU itself isn't a country anyway

[dick dasterdly]

Just now, AlexRich said:

A lot of people fancied the idea of retiring in Europe, that’s screwed up now ... I don’t think holiday plans were ever the issue.

Tell that to the youngsters who were sure that their holiday plans would be far more difficult if brexit happened ????!

[dick dasterdly]

1 minute ago, AlexRich said:

A lot of people fancied the idea of retiring in Europe, that’s screwed up now ... I don’t think holiday plans were ever the issue.

I doubt any plans of "retiring in Europe" are "screwed up now".

 

As long as they're not working and genuinely retired - I'm pretty sure they'll be fine.

[AlexRich]

13 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Tell that to the youngsters who were sure that their holiday plans would be far more difficult if brexit happened ????!

 

Studying through the Erasmus system and settling as a retiree where concerns. It wasn’t about holidays. Whilst it is still possible to work in Europe it will be much more difficult for young people. 

 

The good news is that more youngsters will be participating in the inevitable people’s vote. 

[melvinmelvin]

6 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

I doubt any plans of "retiring in Europe" are "screwed up now".

 

As long as they're not working and genuinely retired - I'm pretty sure they'll be fine.

re being fine, I think that will somewhat depend on the country in question

 

Spain will likely sort it speedily - they need the bobs and quids

Netherland probably ok, they are flexible and pragmatic - mostly

Italy, not sure

France, not sure

Portugal - probably OK - need farthings

Sweden has made or is in the final stages of making a legal package catering for ripple rulers after Brexit

Norway has already completed a legal package catering for UKers post Brexit,

            it is presently out for public consultation

            a deal dependent package - if no deal Brexit the package must be reworked

Denmark? dunno

Germany? dunno

 

[transam]

7 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

re being fine, I think that will somewhat depend on the country in question

 

Spain will likely sort it speedily - they need the bobs and quids

Netherland probably ok, they are flexible and pragmatic - mostly

Italy, not sure

France, not sure

Portugal - probably OK - need farthings

Sweden has made or is in the final stages of making a legal package catering for ripple rulers after Brexit

Norway has already completed a legal package catering for UKers post Brexit,

            it is presently out for public consultation

            a deal dependent package - if no deal Brexit the package must be reworked

Denmark? dunno

Germany? dunno

 

I was just thinking....

 

 

 

 

[kwilco]

I get so fed up with claims that the referendum was an example of democracy.......

 

 

[transam]

7 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

re being fine, I think that will somewhat depend on the country in question

 

Spain will likely sort it speedily - they need the bobs and quids

Netherland probably ok, they are flexible and pragmatic - mostly

Italy, not sure

France, not sure

Portugal - probably OK - need farthings

Sweden has made or is in the final stages of making a legal package catering for ripple rulers after Brexit

Norway has already completed a legal package catering for UKers post Brexit,

            it is presently out for public consultation

            a deal dependent package - if no deal Brexit the package must be reworked

Denmark? dunno

Germany? dunno

 

I was just thinking....

 

 

 

 

[kwilco]

54 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

I doubt any plans of "retiring in Europe" are "screwed up now".

 

As long as they're not working and genuinely retired - I'm pretty sure they'll be fine.

Expat always overvalued their worth to a country. In future retirees will need to show proof of income, property ownership will come into doubt and of course the big one I'd they'll need pay for their own health care.

Any work will be taken.into account and they will need to register with the local authorities. They will be immigrants like people from anywhere outside the EU

[Stupooey]

17 hours ago, Chelseafan said:

Actually I think it would be the same result. Outside London there is a lot more dissatisfaction with Europe than there has ever been, especially with the way that TM has (appeared) to be treated by Brussels. You may get more young left wing uni-grads voting but a lot will say they will vote but won't. I bet my bottom dollar those OAPS will be out in force even more so.

 

 

Difficult for the over-65's to come out in even more force; after all, turnout in that age group was 90% in 2016. Bearing in mind that, according to Alzheimer's UK, over 7% of over-65's suffer from dementia, the turnout was effectively 97%. Unless, of course.......

 

Disclaimer: before anyone applies 'Brexit Logic' to this post, I am not saying, nor even implying, that all Leave voters were or are demented.

[tebee]

1 hour ago, dick dasterdly said:

I doubt any plans of "retiring in Europe" are "screwed up now".

 

As long as they're not working and genuinely retired - I'm pretty sure they'll be fine.

Yes but they will end up with the same sort of frustrations as the retired people here, paperwork, visas and always having to prove their income. Unless the can afford private health care they will have to return to the UK and be a burden on the NHS in case of major illness.

[tebee]

People who cannot organise a plot of 48 people writing letters think they can organise a successful Brexit.

[transam]

7 minutes ago, tebee said:

Yes but they will end up with the same sort of frustrations as the retired people here, paperwork, visas and always having to prove their income. Unless the can afford private health care they will have to return to the UK and be a burden on the NHS in case of major illness.

So the foreigners in the UK ain't milking the NHS, not a burden....Good grief....????

[AlexRich]

10 minutes ago, tebee said:

People who cannot organise a plot of 48 people writing letters think they can organise a successful Brexit.

 

I enjoyed watching the arrogant Steve Baker stuttering as his predictions fail with each day passing. Tactically, the ERG are a bunch of morons. I suspect a challenge will come if the plan gets rejected in parliament ... and when Labour finally realise that no general election is forthcoming you will start to see cross party MP's move towards a people's vote ... and I think the ERG have seriously miscalculated how that will turn out. The irony of this long running saga is that the eurosceptics get their Brexit after years of trying only to throw it away for the sake of ideological purity. 

Edited November 20, 2018 by AlexRich

[AlexRich]

6 minutes ago, transam said:

So the foreigners in the UK ain't milking the NHS, not a burden....Good grief....????

 

To be fair most foreigners in the UK are working taxpayers ... so I don't mind them using a service they are funding through tax. Very few fall into your category.

[tebee]

8 minutes ago, transam said:

So the foreigners in the UK ain't milking the NHS, not a burden....Good grief....????

There are more foreigners working in the NHS than there are using it !

[tebee]

This should be interesting 

 

 

[transam]

1 minute ago, AlexRich said:

 

To be fair most foreigners in the UK are working taxpayers ... so I don't mind them using a service they are funding through tax. Very few fall into your category.

????.......But, my reply was to a bloke who reckons retirees who paid into the UK system all their life are a UK burden when foreign folk walk in and it is OK to milk the system when they haven't.....

[transam]

4 minutes ago, tebee said:

There are more foreigners working in the NHS than there are using it !

 

4 minutes ago, tebee said:

There are more foreigners working in the NHS than there are using it !

So what, you reckon retirees are a burden when they paid their lifelong dues....????