UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, vinny41 said:

Its 4 countries actually England, Wales,Scotland and Northern Ireland 

Zzzz

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, nontabury said:

Quite true. That must be why I, and millions of other Brits were unable to travel around Europe before The E.u came into being. ????

Regarding E.u citizens,I was speaking with a Scottish gentleman ( yes they do exist) yesterday, married to a Lithuania, who entered the U.K before the advent of the E.u. Seemingly no problem for her,as she is highly educated.

Live, work, retire?

[nontabury]

1 hour ago, 7by7 said:

 

 

She would have needed to follow the family settlement route under the UK's immigration rules; as all non EU nationals in that position have always had to do if they want to live in the UK with their British partner (unless Surinder Singh applies and they can use the FoM directive) and, probably, EU nationals will have to do post Brexit. Plus, of course, post Brexit the Surinder Singh route will probably no longer be an option for Brits and their non EEA national partners; unless we remain in the FoM directive.

She definitely did not enter the U.K under the family route.

Though how she actually entered and obtained work here before she met her husband,I don’t know. Maybe she came as a refugee or as an asylum seekers. As I say I do not know.

[Guest]

7 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

Oilinki posted something many pages ago about much of the electorate not being happy about the 'open doors' policy - that allows poor eu citizens into the uK. 

 

Quite right when it comes to eu citizens from poor countries being allowed to automatically enter the country, and keep wages for the poorest as low as possible for uk companies....

 

He tried to twist this into 'uk people hating/feeling superior' to other nations....

 

What I'm mostly against is the ideology of bullying. 

 

I don't care whether the person doing bullying is my blood relative I simply see that action as wrong. 

[Grouse]

How are you today Oilinki?

[SheungWan]

9 hours ago, nontabury said:

Is it at all possible for you to provide a post that is longer than half a dozen words? And it would also be appreciated if such a post was intelligently thought out and constructive.

O.K I know I’m asking a lot,but it is Black Friday.

Sure. I guess some forum Hard Brexiteers might just about be ready to progress to a more advanced comprehension level sooner rather than later.

Edited November 23, 2018 by SheungWan

[tebee]

1 hour ago, melvinmelvin said:

post brexit, nobody knows

 

now, pre brexit:

Surinder Singh is OK and can be used by Brits taking a Thai wife to France (hello tebee)

but can not be used by Brits taking a Thai wife to UK

 

at least, that is my understanding

 

but can be used by a Swede to  take a Thai wife into UK

 

Oddly enough I can bring my thai wife to the UK by virtue of having worked in France - pre-brexit we were thinking of doing it,  as it's easier to get her and her son's Dr qualifications recognized there.

Post brexit we reckon it's better to struggle getting them registered with the French health authorities and retain our FOM   rights, though I may end up having to acquire French nationality do do so, depending on the eventual settlement.

 

But generally the British in Europe feel very ignored by this government - they have refuse to send a representative to meet us.   

[mommysboy]

3 hours ago, adammike said:

The 17m represents roughly 25% of the population and they are dying off guesstimates up to 1m? already gone,by the time Brexit pans out in a couple of years another 2m gone that 17m will be down to say 13m doesn't look good for your longed for revolution,plus the useless Jeremy will be history and with the Tory party  disintegrating and splitting the right vote it will be wide open for the left to fill the vacuum.Careful what you wish for.

 

As they age, people tend to become more conservative and vote with the establishment- a process that may be the product of wisdom or there again simply of pension gains.  So the people that die may simply be replaced, whilst younger people in turn replace them at the lower age bracket.  I think this argument holds good generally, although perhaps not with Brexit.  Here, I do think we are seeing the influence of one particular cohort whose view on Europe is bound to be influenced by their formative years spent under the shadow of the last war, and this may not be so pervasive in succeeding generations of pensioners.

[bomber]

17 minutes ago, tebee said:

Oddly enough I can bring my thai wife to the UK by virtue of having worked in France - pre-brexit we were thinking of doing it,  as it's easier to get her and her son's Dr qualifications recognized there.

Post brexit we reckon it's better to struggle getting them registered with the French health authorities and retain our FOM   rights, though I may end up having to acquire French nationality do do so, depending on the eventual settlement.

 

But generally the British in Europe feel very ignored by this government - they have refuse to send a representative to meet us.   

watched a TV show pre brexit they were interviewing expats in spain most wanted bexit,what they were expecting to gain from it i still dont know,they actually lost about 15% so i sincerely hope they have had to return home penniless or even better topped themselves.

[mommysboy]

1 hour ago, adammike said:

My niece voted to leave and took my 95yo mums proxy vote with her,she is suitably ashamed and embarrassed and we will make sure she only gets her own vote in the upcoming election/referendum.

At the time, my friend was staying on the I.O.W, and Leave activists were laying on travel to elderly voters. They had been priming them beforehand, and also promised a knees up afterwards, much in the manner of a VE day celebration.  My friend did question his mum about why she was voting leave.  She replied that she did not want her grandchildren blown up by terrorists.

 

To be fair, we don't know what mind bending went on in Remain households either.

[StreetCowboy]

Just now, bomber said:

watched a TV show pre brexit they were interviewing expats in spain most wanted bexit,what they were expecting to gain from it i still dont know,they actually lost about 15% so i sincerely hope they have had to return home penniless or even better topped themselves.

There's no excuse for that.  Neither the easily led nor the nationalistic, nor bigots, nor anyone, deserves that sort of spleen.  That sort of foul hatred is a curse upon your own soul, and even if I were an atheist, I would be tempted to repent, just in case

[mommysboy]

5 minutes ago, bomber said:

watched a TV show pre brexit they were interviewing expats in spain most wanted bexit,what they were expecting to gain from it i still dont know,they actually lost about 15% so i sincerely hope they have had to return home penniless or even better topped themselves.

Nice!

[StreetCowboy]

14 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

 

As they age, people tend to become more conservative and vote with the establishment- a process that may be the product of wisdom or there again simply of pension gains.  So the people that die may simply be replaced, whilst younger people in turn replace them at the lower age bracket.  I think this argument holds good generally, although perhaps not with Brexit.  Here, I do think we are seeing the influence of one particular cohort whose view on Europe is bound to be influenced by their formative years spent under the shadow of the last war, and this may not be so pervasive in succeeding generations of pensioners.

It's a process of becoming part of the establishment,  However, given that most of the establishment, bar a few fringe politician posturers were pro-remain, I am not sure how the current youth will evolve, re their views on protecting their rights and opportunities within Europe.  

 

 

[Grouse]

 

good night all

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

How are you today Oilinki?

I'm fine, thank you for asking. I might occasionally behave like a teenager boy, but that is what I want to be. If ever I'll grow up to be an adult, I'll let you all know. It's not likely to happen in any decade soon. 

 

I'm really saddened by the way Brexiteers see us Europeans as evil people.

 

I'm saddened that the British people see people like myself, as their inferior.

 

I'm fine, thank you for asking. Just a bit sad.

[StreetCowboy]

2 minutes ago, oilinki said:

I'm fine, thank you for asking. I might occasionally behave like a teenager boy, but that is what I want to be. If ever I'll grow up to be an adult, I'll let you all know. It's not likely to happen in any decade soon. 

 

I'm really saddened by the way Brexiteers see us Europeans as evil people.

 

I'm saddened that the British people see people like myself, as their inferior.

 

I'm fine, thank you for asking. Just a bit sad.

It's a struggle to accept that the people you once thought of as equals are in fact half-wits.  But you have to remember that Brexit gave voice to the people who had shielded themselves from modernity and prosperity, who had chosen to misinterpret the post-war New Deal as an excuse for anti-intellectual parasitism, rather than a socialist "from each according to their ability, to each according to their need" revolution. 

 

And, to be fair, we did not suffer the total destruction of war that annihilated the pre-existing social order, in the same way as our neighbours did, so that old prejudices and privileges survived into the late 20th century, promoting our politics of envy and greed.

 

If Brexit takes us one step, one tiny step, a little shuffle, a millimetre further away from another war in Europe then it will be worth everything.  If it does the opposite, then it will be the biggest mistake since the Tower of Babel.

[Guest]

40 minutes ago, StreetCowboy said:

It's a struggle to accept that the people you once thought of as equals are in fact half-wits.  But you have to remember that Brexit gave voice to the people who had shielded themselves from modernity and prosperity, who had chosen to misinterpret the post-war New Deal as an excuse for anti-intellectual parasitism, rather than a socialist "from each according to their ability, to each according to their need" revolution. 

 

And, to be fair, we did not suffer the total destruction of war that annihilated the pre-existing social order, in the same way as our neighbours did, so that old prejudices and privileges survived into the late 20th century, promoting our politics of envy and greed.

 

If Brexit takes us one step, one tiny step, a little shuffle, a millimetre further away from another war in Europe then it will be worth everything.  If it does the opposite, then it will be the biggest mistake since the Tower of Babel.

The way I see, the world is stronger and fairer when Europe lead us all. The less reason there is to have a war. We all should know, that the next big war is it. There is nothing alive beyond the next war. Nothing.

 

I did my own country's military service. Conscription. I did all the funny stuff I was required to do at the time. Shooting with guns was really fun! 

 

  What I didn't expect to learn was to meet the ordinary people around my country. I learned very fast that I have been living inside a bubble, which have excluded most of the people of my own country. My university bubble included my university friends, who talked like me. My bubble didn't include the people who I met during my service. My bubble didn't include the people whose ideas were not aligned with my own. 

 

  If possible, I'd like to understand the needs of people both inside and outside of my bubble.

Edited November 23, 2018 by Guest

[tomacht8]

13 hours ago, rixalex said:

"You'll go along with this as long as..."

What that really means is, "I'll respect the vote unless..... , and then I won't".

Remainers seem to feel very entitled. Yes the vote was close and yes remainers number a significant amount of people and as such need to involved in the debate, but you could be forgiven for thinking that it is they who won the vote, considering the amount of attention that gets placed on how they feel about things.

Regarding promises that were made about Brexit, this wasn't an election for a group of people who had a manifesto and who, if voted in, were promising to implement that manifesto.

Promises made by people who wouldn't be driving the bus could never mean very much. Not because they were necessarily impossible to deliver as you conclude. Had we had a government full of leavers and a Houses of Commons (and Lords) that wasn't intent on trying to sabotage Brexit, we would have told the EU on day one that we were leaving without a deal and would be making plans to that effect, negotiations with the EU would have gone very differently. The tone we set from the beginning was critical and it was totally wrong.

We've had negotiations led in the main by people who didn't believe in Brexit and who were hamstrung by fear. Weak and desperate for any bone the EU would toss their way. No wonder then how awful the deal therefore has turned out. Remainers in parliament and in the media played their part in ensuring a bad deal, constantly talking up the EU and talking down their own country. Insisting that we couldn't possibly mention "no deal" to the EU. The EU saw a weak and divided country and thought to themselves, we don't really need to offer these guys anything. Quite right too. Standing up for themselves. All we needed to do was the same thing. As soon as anyone ever did from our camp though it was met with cries of "what arrogance, how unfriendly, what a little Englander, that's not how you get a good deal".

Anyway, bearing in mind that no promise could be made about the Brexit deal that would be delivered when people voted in 2016, how good or bad it would be, how badly the politicians would negotiate and how disingenuous many of them would turn out to be in having said they would respect the will of the people, the one promise that was set in stone and was explicitly spoken by the prime minister of the day and sent to everybody's doorstep in print was that voting to leave would mean LEAVING the EU completely, no ifs, no buts.

And that is what Britain must now do to uphold democracy. Yes, democracy is a process and no, democracy doesn't stop after a vote, but democracy does have to do what a vote promises to. If you give people a choice and say you will implement their decision, but then dilly dally for a couple of years not implementing it, wringing your hands, scratching your head, saying that actually you can't really do it and would you mind awfully voting again, there WILL be a reaction to that and there WILL be a long term impact on democracy. If you think there won't, go ahead and try. The mess you'll create for Britain will far outweigh a no deal Brexit.





Sent from my SM-G610F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

Very good <post.
It is not good when different opinions meet hate.
For me Brexit is ok.
52% against 48%
Great victory
But for me, many have not considered, there is a technical problem.
Or legal problem.
The time to create something meaningful in the §50 time (2 years) is simply too short. <

More time for more common thinking would be good.

[Guest]

13 hours ago, rixalex said:

"You'll go along with this as long as..."

What that really means is, "I'll respect the vote unless..... , and then I won't".

Remainers seem to feel very entitled. Yes the vote was close and yes remainers number a significant amount of people and as such need to involved in the debate, but you could be forgiven for thinking that it is they who won the vote, considering the amount of attention that gets placed on how they feel about things.

Regarding promises that were made about Brexit, this wasn't an election for a group of people who had a manifesto and who, if voted in, were promising to implement that manifesto.

Promises made by people who wouldn't be driving the bus could never mean very much. Not because they were necessarily impossible to deliver as you conclude. Had we had a government full of leavers and a Houses of Commons (and Lords) that wasn't intent on trying to sabotage Brexit, we would have told the EU on day one that we were leaving without a deal and would be making plans to that effect, negotiations with the EU would have gone very differently. The tone we set from the beginning was critical and it was totally wrong.

We've had negotiations led in the main by people who didn't believe in Brexit and who were hamstrung by fear. Weak and desperate for any bone the EU would toss their way. No wonder then how awful the deal therefore has turned out. Remainers in parliament and in the media played their part in ensuring a bad deal, constantly talking up the EU and talking down their own country. Insisting that we couldn't possibly mention "no deal" to the EU. The EU saw a weak and divided country and thought to themselves, we don't really need to offer these guys anything. Quite right too. Standing up for themselves. All we needed to do was the same thing. As soon as anyone ever did from our camp though it was met with cries of "what arrogance, how unfriendly, what a little Englander, that's not how you get a good deal".

Anyway, bearing in mind that no promise could be made about the Brexit deal that would be delivered when people voted in 2016, how good or bad it would be, how badly the politicians would negotiate and how disingenuous many of them would turn out to be in having said they would respect the will of the people, the one promise that was set in stone and was explicitly spoken by the prime minister of the day and sent to everybody's doorstep in print was that voting to leave would mean LEAVING the EU completely, no ifs, no buts.

And that is what Britain must now do to uphold democracy. Yes, democracy is a process and no, democracy doesn't stop after a vote, but democracy does have to do what a vote promises to. If you give people a choice and say you will implement their decision, but then dilly dally for a couple of years not implementing it, wringing your hands, scratching your head, saying that actually you can't really do it and would you mind awfully voting again, there WILL be a reaction to that and there WILL be a long term impact on democracy. If you think there won't, go ahead and try. The mess you'll create for Britain will far outweigh a no deal Brexit.
 

When people are being honest and they are speaking from their hearts, that's something everyone should stop and listen.

 

While I fully support the way you think, I don't agree who is the one who should be blamed.

[Jip99]

On 11/22/2018 at 12:27 PM, oilinki said:

 

 

So once again, congratulations to the Brexiters. You managed to change your country to the way you wanted. 

 

 

Not quite.

 

But we are extracting ourselves from the EU.

 

One step at a time.

[tomacht8]

2 minutes ago, oilinki said:

When people are being honest and they are speaking from their hearts, that's something everyone should stop and listen.

 

While I fully support the way you think, I don't agree who is the one who should be blamed.

You are like me, not a native Brit.
It is about to see how we together try to plant an European idea.
But the EU is shit.
Would be nice if some of the anti-Europe people could bring up an alternative. Without the national uproar.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Jip99 said:

Not quite.

 

But we are extracting ourselves from the EU.

 

One step at a time.

During the times of my travels, I thought traveling through Nicaragua was quite an experience.

 

In my wildest dreams would I have thought UK could have become in the future, such an exiting country to visit!

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, tomacht8 said:

You are like me, not a native Brit.
It is about to see how we together try to plant an European idea.
But the EU is shit.
Would be nice if some of the anti-Europe people could bring up an alternative. Without the national uproar.

We pro-European people simply have to improve the EU we have. It's not perfect and there is lot to improve. We all know this. 

 

We just have to work to make it better. Bit by bit. 

 

To be honest, we don't have any other alternatives. Why we even should have. 

 

[Jip99]

54 minutes ago, oilinki said:

 

 

In my wildest dreams would I have thought UK could have become in the future, such an exiting country to visit!

 

 

I am sure it is, compared to your home country.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Jip99 said:

 

I am sure it is, compared to your home country.

No, not really. There was however one lady, who asked if we have real roads in my country. She thought that our ground is constantly frozen. Are you one of those people?

 

[tebee]

Theresa May has delivered an Idiot's Brexit, but the idiots don't like it

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/theresa-may-brexit-iain-duncan-smith-house-of-commons-political-declaration-idiots-brexit-a8647606.html

 

Even Jeremy Corbyn had spotted that the document was “peppered with phrases like ‘look at’ and ‘will explore’.” And if Jeremy Corbyn has seen through your ruse, that’s when you know you really do have a problem.

 

...more alchemy will be required; and as of now, nobody has even the tiniest clue what.

[melvinmelvin]

1 hour ago, Jip99 said:

 

 

Not quite.

 

But we are extracting ourselves from the EU.

 

One step at a time.

 

yeah,

 

much like when the UK went metric, slowly but surely

 

inch by inch

 

 

[melvinmelvin]

20 minutes ago, tebee said:

Theresa May has delivered an Idiot's Brexit, but the idiots don't like it

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/theresa-may-brexit-iain-duncan-smith-house-of-commons-political-declaration-idiots-brexit-a8647606.html

 

Even Jeremy Corbyn had spotted that the document was “peppered with phrases like ‘look at’ and ‘will explore’.” And if Jeremy Corbyn has seen through your ruse, that’s when you know you really do have a problem.

 

...more alchemy will be required; and as of now, nobody has even the tiniest clue what.

 

the idiots are in good company

they are many those who do not like what TM delivers ...

 

[Jip99]

1 hour ago, oilinki said:

No, not really. There was however one lady, who asked if we have real roads in my country. She thought that our ground is constantly frozen. Are you one of those people?

 

 

You mean it isn’t completely frozen ?

 

I have played golf in Spain with your countrymen and they have to walk in the shade of the trees to avoid melting. 

 

In Phuket I imagine that you must spend all day in 7-11, or a local shopping mall.

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, Jip99 said:

 

You mean it isn’t completely frozen ?

 

I have played golf in Spain with your countrymen and they have to walk in the shade of the trees to avoid melting. 

 

In Phuket I imagine that you must spend all day in 7-11, or a local shopping mall.

As silly as it might sound, the last time I burned my skin was back in Finland, within days I took that photo.

 

Summer back there is pretty awesome.