UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[mommysboy]

9 minutes ago, rixalex said:

 

This goes to the crux of the problem. Rather than just getting on with delivering the result of the referendum in a whole hearted and positive manner, those pulling the strings have been desperately trying to walk an impossible tightrope from day one of not upsetting anyone, with the result of pleasing nobody.

A fully committed Brexit could have been successful. That's not what we've had. Remainers are now smugly proclaiming they were right all along and that leavers were stupid to believe Brexit could have ever been successful.

Remainers certainly MUST think leavers are stupid if they think leavers haven't noticed that it's been the remainers in parliament and in the media who have ensured a complete mess of this.



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The onus was on the Government to enthuse both Parliament, and the electorate. Quite simply, they have done a terrible job of that.  Utter incompetence was there right from day one.

[Guest]

Has EU member countries approved this said deal? If not, perhaps we should spice things us and simply refuse any deals with UK.

 

Should we do so, the funny part would be to hear how the brexiteers would start complaining how unfair the EU is and how much they want this deal to happen ????

 

 

[adammike]

1 hour ago, nontabury said:

That’s where the problem started. They fooled the British electorate in 1975. Don’t take my word for it. Read up on how Heath, even lied to his own M.P’s,as confirmed this very week by one of the  Conservative M.P’ who attended one of his briefing before the vote.

2016, thanks to the internet we were able to side step the establishment owed media and seek out the true facts. Unfortunately people like you are unable to question what they’ve been fed. I beleive the word is brainwashed.

Who has brainwashed me?

[rixalex]

The onus was on the Government to enthuse both Parliament, and the electorate. Quite simply, they have done a terrible job of that.  Utter incompetence was there right from day one.

The mentality of Parliament by and large is such that I don't think the type of Brexit that was needed - a fully committed one - was ever going to enthuse it, and if that was what we got from day one, Parliament would have been dragged kicking and screaming from the EU right until the bitter end.

The electorate though is another matter. I think, by and large, remainers were ready to accept that the country was moving in a different direction and appreciated that for the sake of democracy, exactly that was necessary. They COULD have been enthused. As you rightly say, the government has been an utter failure in this regard. Has there ever been a bigger shower of shambles than this lot? It's going to take some beating I fancy.

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[SheungWan]

22 minutes ago, adammike said:

Who has brainwashed me?

According to the Conspiracy Theory guys anybody who doesn't follow their nutcase ideas is 'brainwashed'.

[CharlieH]

Reported posts removed

[Jim1000]

1 hour ago, mommysboy said:

The onus was on the Government to enthuse both Parliament, and the electorate. Quite simply, they have done a terrible job of that.  Utter incompetence was there right from day one.

So average politicians were tasked with an almost impossibly complicated task and it got more complicated .

I see .

[billd766]

1 hour ago, adammike said:

Who has brainwashed me?

I was only fooled once back in 1975 when I voted to join the common market.

 

Definitely not so the second time when I voted for Brexit.

 

I learned by experience. 

 

You obviously haven't.

[7by7]

On ‎11‎/‎23‎/‎2018 at 2:02 PM, melvinmelvin said:

post brexit, nobody knows

Quite, but as I said

On ‎11‎/‎23‎/‎2018 at 1:19 PM, 7by7 said:

As EU immigration was a major reason many voted Leave, staying in the FoM directive is highly unlikely as it would be political suicide for whichever government agreed to it.

 

On ‎11‎/‎23‎/‎2018 at 2:02 PM, melvinmelvin said:

now, pre brexit:

Surinder Singh is OK and can be used by Brits taking a Thai wife to France (hello tebee)

but can not be used by Brits taking a Thai wife to UK

 

at least, that is my understanding

 

but can be used by a Swede to  take a Thai wife into UK

Not quite.

 

Under the directive any EU, EEA or Swiss national can travel freely to any other EU member state, EEA member state or Switzerland and can also live there if exercising a treaty right. They can also take their qualifying non EU, EEA or Swiss national family members with them. This right does not apply to the state of which the EU, EEA or Swiss national is a citizen; for that the non EU,EEA or Swiss national family member needs to apply for the appropriate visa under that state's own immigration laws.

 

So a Brit exercising a treaty right can use the directive to live in France with their Thai partner, but not the UK; a Swede can do the same in the UK, but not Sweden.

 

However, the Surinder Singh judgement ruled that an EU, EEA, or Swiss national's freedom of movement rights would be severely restricted if, after living and exercising g a treaty right in another member state with their qualifying non EU, EEA or Swiss national family members they could not then return home with those family members. So, for example, a brit who has been exercising a treaty right in France and whose Thai partner has been living there with him/her can use Surinder Singh to bring their Thai partner back to live in the UK under the directive rather than the UK's family settlement rules.

 

That's a brief explanation of what can be a complicated subject. for the directive in full, click here.

 

As can be seen from numerous posts here, the average Brexiteer wants Brits to retain our freedom of movement rights in the EU, EEA and Switzerland, but doesn't want those nasty foreigners to retain their rights in the UK! They fail to realise that we can't retain our rights without EU, EEA and Swiss nationals retaining theirs!

 

23 hours ago, tebee said:

Oddly enough I can bring my thai wife to the UK by virtue of having worked in France - pre-brexit we were thinking of doing it,  as it's easier to get her and her son's Dr qualifications recognized there.

Yes, via Surinder Singh as explained above.

 

23 hours ago, tebee said:

Post brexit we reckon it's better to struggle getting them registered with the French health authorities and retain our FOM   rights, though I may end up having to acquire French nationality do do so, depending on the eventual settlement.

Both sides have said that those already exercising a treaty right pre Brexit will be able to remain and obtain PR post Brexit. But, as you rightly say, nothing has been finalised yet.

 

As for those Brits who wish to live, work or study in an EU member, EEA member or Switzerland and vice versa post Brexit, most reports say that free movement between the UK and the others will end; if not immediately then within 2 years of Brexit.

 

23 hours ago, tebee said:

But generally the British in Europe feel very ignored by this government - they have refuse to send a representative to meet us. 

Why should they? I understand your worry, and as I am someone who voted remain you have my full sympathy. But the government sees itself as carrying out the people's wishes as represented by they referendum result; and your plight and that of the other approx. 1.3 million Brits living in the EU, EEA or Switzerland is pretty low on their list of priorities.

 

Of course, the average Brexiteer couldn't give a damn about you and the other 1.3 million.

 

The fact is that many of those who voted leave hadn't a clue about the full consequences of their decision is something we have to accept and try to make the best of.

Edited November 24, 2018 by 7by7

[7by7]

13 hours ago, whatsupdoc said:

Conclusion: the EU has the power (and good negotiators), the UK doesn't.

Whether or not they have better negotiators is moot; but it was we chose to leave their club; they have no obligation, legal nor moral, to give us anything at all and so are in a much stronger position.

 

Something which should be obvious to anyone with an once of nous; but oddly it's something which the average Brexiteer seems unable to grasp!

 

Of course, the EU would rather have a deal than no deal; but we have a hell of a lot more to lose from a no deal Brexit than they do.

 

 

[mommysboy]

3 hours ago, rixalex said:

 

This goes to the crux of the problem. Rather than just getting on with delivering the result of the referendum in a whole hearted and positive manner, those pulling the strings have been desperately trying to walk an impossible tightrope from day one of not upsetting anyone, with the result of pleasing nobody.

A fully committed Brexit could have been successful. That's not what we've had. Remainers are now smugly proclaiming they were right all along and that leavers were stupid to believe Brexit could have ever been successful.

Remainers certainly MUST think leavers are stupid if they think leavers haven't noticed that it's been the remainers in parliament and in the media who have ensured a complete mess of this.



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'A fully committed Brexit could have been successful.' 

 

Agreed

[7by7]

28 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

'A fully committed Brexit could have been successful.' 

 

Agreed

 

Instead of the usual whingeing that you are not getting "a fully committed Brexit," perhaps for once you or rixalex, who you quoted, or any other Brexiteer can actually define exactly what you mean by "a fully committed Brexit" and how that would benefit the UK?

 

 

 

[mommysboy]

2 hours ago, Jim1000 said:

So average politicians were tasked with an almost impossibly complicated task and it got more complicated .

I see .

Yes it was a tough task, maybe impossible as you say.  On the other hand, they were dithering from day one.  They chose a route that involved, evasion, deception, and at times fought very dirty.

[tebee]

1 hour ago, 7by7 said:

 

 

As can be seen from numerous posts here, the average Brexiteer wants Brits to retain our freedom of movement rights in the EU, EEA and Switzerland, but doesn't want those nasty foreigners to retain their rights in the UK! They fail to realise that we can't retain our rights without EU, EEA and Swiss nationals retaining theirs!

 

Yes, via Surinder Singh as explained above.

 

Both sides have said that those already exercising a treaty right pre Brexit will be able to remain and obtain PR post Brexit. But, as you rightly say, nothing has been finalised yet.

But in the case of the Brits those rights will be severely restricted - we will only have the right to live in the country we are resident in at the end of Brexit and lose the rights to live in the other 26

 

Some may lose their jobs - some counties have rules that certain positions, like civil service ones, can only be help by nationals  of that country. The Eu forced then to open the positions to all EU nationals, but come April next year brits are no longer EU nationals.  

 

 

1 hour ago, 7by7 said:

As for those Brits who wish to live, work or study in an EU member, EEA member or Switzerland and vice versa post Brexit, most reports say that free movement between the UK and the others will end; if not immediately then within 2 years of Brexit.

 

Assuming we don't crash out with no deal, nothing will change until then end of transition. Of course there are those who think transition will be indefinitely extended , so it could be nothing will ever change !

1 hour ago, 7by7 said:

 

 

Why should they? I understand your worry, and as I am someone who voted remain you have my full sympathy. But the government sees itself as carrying out the people's wishes as represented by they referendum result; and your plight and that of the other approx. 1.3 million Brits living in the EU, EEA or Switzerland is pretty low on their list of priorities.

 

Of course, the average Brexiteer couldn't give a damn about you and the other 1.3 million.

 

The fact is that many of those who voted leave hadn't a clue about the full consequences of their decision is something we have to accept and try to make the best of.

Yes but if you ignore the rights of those 1.5 million people why are you surprised that they try and organize opinion against losing those rights? Doing things to safeguard our rights and those of EU citizens in the UK  would have considerably reduced the opposition to brexit. 

[melvinmelvin]

Seems that UK and Spain have agreed on suitable language re Gibraltar to be inserted in the deal.

 

So, that was the last obstacle

and all should be set for EU member state chieftains to sign the deal tomorrow.

 

 

 

Next; UK parliament.

 

early December is it?

 

Edited November 24, 2018 by melvinmelvin

[mommysboy]

1 hour ago, 7by7 said:

 

Instead of the usual whingeing that you are not getting "a fully committed Brexit," perhaps for once you or rixalex, who you quoted, or any other Brexiteer can actually define exactly what you mean by "a fully committed Brexit" and how that would benefit the UK?

 

 

 

 

Well, I was just agreeing with the simple notion that had we been more committed then we would have had a better, and smoother outcome.

 

Although I liked the idea of Brexit I was a reluctant remainer myself because I thought it too disruptive at a time when we needed more stability.

 

Economically, no, there isn't any benefit in the short term for sure, and possibly not even guaranteed in the long run.  But, there were other reasons.

 

I don't like the proposed deal because it is the worst of both worlds- I would first favour no Brexit, or WTO deal.

Edited November 24, 2018 by mommysboy

[mommysboy]

47 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

Seems that UK and Spain have agreed on suitable language re Gibraltar to be inserted in the deal.

 

So, that was the last obstacle

and all should be set for EU member state chieftains to sign the deal tomorrow.

 

 

 

Next; UK parliament.

 

early December is it?

 

That's when the real fireworks show starts.

[melvinmelvin]

15 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

That's when the real fireworks show starts.

 

probably a lot of noise will be generated, but of no significant consequence  - me guess

 

deal shot down? guess not

would mean either no deal Brexit or going back to EU and ask for another match

 

deal accepted as is, maybe

 

deal accepted with some totally inconsequential amendments, probably

 

 

[tebee]

51 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

probably a lot of noise will be generated, but of no significant consequence  - me guess

 

deal shot down? guess not

would mean either no deal Brexit or going back to EU and ask for another match

 

deal accepted as is, maybe

 

deal accepted with some totally inconsequential amendments, probably

 

 

Or it could just be the mood in the country has changed enough by then to just abandon the whole stupid idea....

[tebee]

Some people are not happy with Brexiters :-

 

 

Democratic nations have many many times voted to elect stupid people with stupid ideas.

 

That Brexit is one of the most stupid ideas ever and is promoted by probably some of the most stupid politicians on earth one day will be nothing more than an historical footnote.

 

Brexit will be reversed because my generation and those following us are going to see to it. We are unstoppable. Count on it and I do hope you looney Brexiteers will be around to see it. Time is on our side.

 

Still, enjoy your day in the sun smashing up our future, perhaps the saddest thing will be slashing your pensions in 10 to 15 years time, and you already know it will have to be done. The damage you've caused is going to make many things you all took for granted unaffordable....
 

[adammike]

5 hours ago, billd766 said:

I was only fooled once back in 1975 when I voted to join the common market.

 

Definitely not so the second time when I voted for Brexit.

 

I learned by experience. 

 

You obviously haven't.

I voted to stay in 75,if I could have voted in the referendum in 16 I would have voted to stay.I didn't believe a word the Tory Ted Heath told me then and I didn't believe a word of the brexiteers this time.I think the EU is the best thing that ever happened to the European continent sure it makes mistakes the the throwing back of fish because the boats have reached the quotas is criminal,and what did the UK do they sent Ukippers as their representatives who just rode the gravy train.

[tebee]

Why Theresa May's Brexit Deal Is Terrible For The U.K.

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/francescoppola/2018/11/24/why-theresa-mays-brexit-deal-is-terrible-for-the-u-k/#19a5c2b47bd7

 

 

But once the Article 50 deadline is past, the Withdrawal Agreement would lock the U.K. into “frozen Brexit,” with the EU holding the keys to the freezer. Eventually, the UK would have to choose between hard borders, including in Ireland, or becoming a permanent EU rule taker.

It is an appalling deal. It merely buys time at the cost of a considerably weaker negotiating position for the U.K.

[tebee]

May sells out Gibraltar then makes a statement saying she “stands by it”.  

 

May sells out Scottish fishing  then makes a statement saying “nothing has changed”.  

 

Either she is unconsciously channelling Orwellian doublespeak, or she is actively seeking to deceive.

[tebee]

Little did i think I'd end up quoting Nadine Dorries, but brexit has brought unsettling times....

 

 

[SheungWan]

4 hours ago, mommysboy said:

'A fully committed Brexit could have been successful.' 

Agreed

 

4 hours ago, 7by7 said:

Instead of the usual whingeing that you are not getting "a fully committed Brexit," perhaps for once you or rixalex, who you quoted, or any other Brexiteer can actually define exactly what you mean by "a fully committed Brexit" and how that would benefit the UK?

The UK was fully committed to negotiating from beginning to end. Unfortunately it wasn't with the EU. It was with itself.

Edited November 24, 2018 by SheungWan

[kwilco]

Behold! The benighted Britain born of beleaguered Brexiteers' boasts.....

700,000 jobs up the spout! (Govt figures)

 

 

[melvinmelvin]

1 hour ago, tebee said:

Little did i think I'd end up quoting Nadine Dorries, but brexit has brought unsettling times....

 

 

 

would you know where/when Barnier said what is claimed above?

 

[vinny41]

1 hour ago, kwilco said:

Behold! The benighted Britain born of beleaguered Brexiteers' boasts.....

700,000 jobs up the spout! (Govt figures)

 

 

This is based on government analysis of 3 hypothetical deals, which explicitly can’t be used as economic forecasts and are very uncertain. According to the analysis GDP will continue to grow over the next fifteen years in each case, but more slowly than on existing OBR projections. Fullfact

Basically FullFact is saying this is incorrect misleading and wrong

 

https://fullfact.org/europe/viral-image-brexit-costs-wrong/

Kwilco you school report must have stated Must try harder and do you research before posting

 

Claim

Options for post-Brexit trade deals with the EU will lead to between 700,000 and 2,800,000 fewer jobs.

Conclusion There is no evidence for this in the report cited by the claimant, nor elsewhere.

Edited November 24, 2018 by vinny41

[kwilco]

Remainers concerns are derived from looking at the evidence and drawing conclusions....would appear that Brexiteers can't do this preferring to base their dogma on wishful thinking, baseless predictions (OK, maybe tea leaves) and labelling anything they don't like the sound of as "project fear" (I guess because it makes them frightened?)

 

Her are a few examples of Brexiteers reading their tea leaves.......

 

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1065648448362434560.html?fbclid=IwAR0CRtqvm0v7Vz_NJy8Z0zbpsWimPrlVfGC7ELFsNIoZ5tqzDQjkr5ad1wA

 

[vinny41]

If Brexit is finished, then so is democracy’

I think if there were a second referendum, Leave would probably win it. Assuming the campaign was a reasonable one and the question was fair. But we can’t assume either of those things.

https://www.spiked-online.com/2018/11/23/if-brexit-is-finished-then-so-is-democracy/