UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[vogie]

3 hours ago, Grouse said:

Actually, yes. That is the sort of constitutional issue that should be decided by referendum. Sadly, as we now know, a large proportion of the population would find the question too difficult to comprehend 

Confucius say, "if you think you are the smartest person in the room, you are in the wrong room."

[talahtnut]

14 hours ago, SheungWan said:

Brexiteer Conspiracy Theorists and reality are oxymorons.

Remmies are short of a little grammatical theory here.

[talahtnut]

10 hours ago, Grouse said:

Yes, our FPTP system is outmoded now.

 

It just brought it home to me how fundimentally decent our European Friends are

 

????

 

ta' ska' du hav'

Those decent 'friends' of yours are after our fundi.

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-politics-46336137/brexit-i-m-never-changing-my-mind-says-juncker

 

Rip the 'draft deal' up in front of them, do an about turn and walk out the door. NO DEAL. Pay them nothing more, not a penny. See what really happens next. No conjecture, no 'projections', just brass tax. 

 

This flabby, pompous alcoholic and his goons can go swivel. This should be our new Brexit policy. Grow some balls, restore some confidence and take whatever short-term economic hit on the chin. Far better that than be forever more the lap-dog of decadent, autocratic turds like Juncker et al and lose the last remaining shreds of respect from our Commonwealth cousins and beyond. Pathetic state of affairs. Whatever happened to the confident, self-assured nation that swaggered...we never cowered in front of little Luxembourg limp-di**s. It was after all, the UK that did more than any other European nation to set the continent free from home-grown tyranny and now, 75 years on, we submit to it? ????

From lone warrior hero to....this! How have we been reduced to taking orders from the likes of JCJ?? Embarrassing doesn't begin to cover it. I fear the same, once proud and strong nation, is now largely made up of weak-kneed, PC, far left Remoaners - the government clearly is.

 

A sad day for sure. Let's just hope the HoC grow a spine.

 

 

[sandyf]

15 hours ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

thank you for the kind offer to subscribe to ft

a heavy burden fell off my shoulders when I received this generous offer

 

Yes, a bit of a downside, seems a bit of hit and miss with FT.

Restricts info to limited sources.

[talahtnut]

3 hours ago, Grouse said:

Actually, yes. That is the sort of constitutional issue that should be decided by referendum. Sadly, as we now know, a large proportion of the population would find the question too difficult to comprehend 

Please tell us why you are superior to the 'large proportion

of the population'.

[sandyf]

14 hours ago, billd766 said:

I wonder if Nick Clegg and the LibDems are eating their words and choking on them now?

You do surprise me Bill.

I was on a Luftwaffe base during an exercise and couldn't believe the state of the German equipment,looked first world war rather than second.

I would have thought that you of all people would appreciate the need for forces working alongside each other to be equipped and trained to a similar standard.

In WW2 the UK had to ask the USA for assistance, if the USA was the enemy, to whom would the UK turn?

 

The general consensus in Brussels yesterday was a further 4 years and some suggested as long as 7, unlikely I will see a conclusion but fear for those left behind.

[evadgib]

Posted without comment...yet ????

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/40-reasons-to-back-the-brexit-deal

[malagateddy]

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-politics-46336137/brexit-i-m-never-changing-my-mind-says-juncker
 
Rip the 'draft deal' up in front of them, do an about turn and walk out the door. NO DEAL. Pay them nothing more, not a penny. See what really happens next. No conjecture, no 'projections', just brass tax. 
 
This flabby, pompous alcoholic and his goons can go swivel. This should be our new Brexit policy. Grow some balls, restore some confidence and take whatever short-term economic hit on the chin. Far better that than be forever more the lap-dog of decadent, autocratic turds like Juncker et al and lose the last remaining shreds of respect from our Commonwealth cousins and beyond. Pathetic state of affairs. Whatever happened to the confident, self-assured nation that swaggered...we never cowered in front of little Luxembourg limp-di**s. It was after all, the UK that did more than any other European nation to set the continent free from home-grown tyranny and now, 75 years on, we submit to it? [emoji17]
From lone warrior hero to....this! How have we been reduced to taking orders from the likes of JCJ?? Embarrassing doesn't begin to cover it. I fear the same, once proud and strong nation, is now largely made up of weak-kneed, PC, far left Remoaners - the government clearly is.
 
A sad day for sure. Let's just hope the HoC grow a spine.
 
 

Excellent stuff Sir..I think May's shambolic deal will be torn to pieces and binned by Parliament..she will resign..new PM who will be a Brexiteer..Brussels told to go forth and multiply and whistle for the 39 big ones..then WTO here we go [emoji6]

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[rixalex]

Surely we all do that, don't we?  Otherwise what would be the point of "democracy"?

If that were the case, the rich would always vote right wing and the poor would always vote left. Some people do take into account not only their own welfare when they vote, but that of the country.

 

The prominent British posters on here arguing vociferously in favour of the EU, and who reside in the EU, outside of Britain, judging from their complete inability to see and accept the problems created by the EU, do not. It's all about me, me, me.

 

Sent from my SM-G610F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

 

 

 

[evadgib]

21 minutes ago, talahtnut said:

Please tell us why you are superior to the 'large proportion

of the population'.

He does that every day ????

[sandyf]

16 hours ago, vinny41 said:

Clegg Idiocy, EU Army is Dangerous Fantasy Lie (April 2014)

 

Well that explains a lot, if you think that Nigel Farage is to be believed. It was people like him scaremongering on the failings of Theresa May's, as Home Secretary, overall immigration policy that got us into this mess.

From March 2016

Mr Farage also questioned whether human rights law would allow the EU to send migrants back to Turkey, adding: “So the argument is we have paid them a fortune not to reduce numbers and yet we have given in and we have said visa-free access for 75 million Turks from June of this year.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/650972/ukip-nigel-farage-european-union-eu-turkey-migrant-crisis-brexit-grassroots-leave

[Scott]

Troll post and reply removed.

 

[Grouse]

10 hours ago, nontabury said:

That is why the remoaners are so against democracy.

Unless of course the decision goes in their favour.????

 

What utter tripe.

 

You really can not believe in altruism; how sad for you

 

I'm 64. Nothing really matters to me personally but I do care about my greater family and the country where I was born and still have roots. Democracy only works if there is equality in education and access to information. It clearly would not work in the U.K. Which is why we have representative parliamentary democracy. The fact that you do not understand that after all this time tends to prove my point. Who did you vote for in the last election? CON or LAB? Have they been voting Brexit or Remain. That you had s vote is your democratic right. No more, no less.

[rixalex]

How dare you
 
Back up that statement 
 
Apologise
 
or get suspended
 
 

Your personal circumstances (and that of your family) are all a matter of public record on here. Why? Because you've told us all. Are you going to now deny that being in the EU has been personally very beneficial? And are we expected to believe your personal benefits play no part in the forming of your opinion on this matter? Pull the other one.

And while you're at it, you might want to wind your neck in a bit too. "Get suspended"?!

Who do you think you are? Leave the moderating to the moderators.

Sent from my SM-G610F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[talahtnut]

7 minutes ago, BwindiBoy said:

You spelt "suffer" wrong.

Count the wars since 1945

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

22 minutes ago, malagateddy said:

Excellent stuff Sir..I think May's shambolic deal will be torn to pieces and binned by Parliament..she will resign..new PM who will be a Brexiteer..Brussels told to go forth and multiply and whistle for the 39 big ones..then WTO here we go

Sent from my SM-G7102 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

Cheers MT, we can but hope! I fear the political class will do whatever they can at this point to save their jobs and as many of them are simply upholders of the status quo, I wouldn't be so sure. It seemed very unlikely that the HoC would pass this laughable 'deal' last week. But then, it seemed likely that the 48 letters would be sent, they didn't materialise.

Putting country and principle above party or career is a rare occurrence in politics these days, but that being said, this draft deal has been so wholly unpopular across the board, it still might be possible that it is rejected out of hand - as of course it should be. May being 'summoned' to meet with her superiors Barnier and Juncker in the middle of the night to sign off on this woeful agreement last week, and now JCJ coming out with this proclamation that it's - their way or nothing, might have created enough pressure for those Tories who were on the fence to be cowed into taking the soft route.? Can only hope that politically opposed Eurosceptics in the House can unite and do their bit for the nation by voting this deal down. Then things will really get interesting. If the deal does get voted down, I too hope May would resign, but who would replace her? Are there any senior Tories willing to stick their neck out and who are ardently pro-Britain and pro-democracy; is there a clearly electable replacement? How long would it take to organise and would the supposed 'lack of time' before March 29th mean that either a GE or a No Deal would be enforced? Then there is the possibility of a 2nd referendum. 

 

Nothing is clear cut at this point, but a NO vote in the HoC would be a first step in the right direction, IMO.

[talahtnut]

5 minutes ago, rixalex said:

Your personal circumstances (and that of your family) are all a matter of public record on here. Why? Because you've told us all. Are you going to now deny that being in the EU has been personally very beneficial? And are we expected to believe your personal benefits play no part in the forming of your opinion on this matter? Pull the other one.

And while you're at it, you might want to wind your neck in a bit too. "Get suspended"?!

Who do you think you are? Leave the moderating to the moderators.

Sent from my SM-G610F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

Grouse in suspenders, interesting thought, for some,

[evadgib]

9 hours ago, melvinmelvin said:

that argument is still largely correct

 

however, with disciplined politicians minority governments and coalition arguments also works

 

I'd like to see votes tied to our NI numbers and for voting to be compulsory & fully embracing 21st century technology enabling the majority (expats too) to vote from home. Adding 'Jedi' for protest voters or tagging a nominal ten quid tax fine to the non-compliant's next p60.

[Grouse]

45 minutes ago, rixalex said:

Your personal circumstances (and that of your family) are all a matter of public record on here. Why? Because you've told us all. Are you going to now deny that being in the EU has been personally very beneficial? And are we expected to believe your personal benefits play no part in the forming of your opinion on this matter? Pull the other one.

And while you're at it, you might want to wind your neck in a bit too. "Get suspended"?!

Who do you think you are? Leave the moderating to the moderators.

Sent from my SM-G610F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

I will indeed leave your ill manners for the moderators.

 

Historically, 40 years ago and 20 years ago, the UK being a member of the EU was useful to me. Right now it is useful to my sister who has retired to Aragon.

 

I always planned to retire to Denmark. Such a civilised place.

 

My stance on Brexit is largely altruistic. I would like others to benefit as I was able to in the past

 

Kindly cease your ill mannered comments.

 

 

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, talahtnut said:

Please tell us why you are superior to the 'large proportion

of the population'.

What precisely do you mean?

 

Assuming you refer to knowledge and/or education, I have no idea, but that certainly seems to be the way that it is. I assure you this has been quite an eye opener for me. Maybe I was just more diligent at school? ????

 

 

 

 

[vogie]

4 minutes ago, Grouse said:

What precisely do you mean?

 

Assuming you refer to knowledge and/or education, I have no idea, but that certainly seems to be the way that it is. I assure you this has been quite an eye opener for me. Maybe I was just more diligent at school? ????

 

 

 

 

I think he means (but don't quote me) that you can be smugly sanctimonious and intollerant to the opinions of others. ????????????

[evadgib]

@Grouse

As you're 64 can we expect you to pop up on the 'Pensions' page shortly or is everyone there wrong too?

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, rixalex said:

Your personal circumstances (and that of your family) are all a matter of public record on here. Why? Because you've told us all. Are you going to now deny that being in the EU has been personally very beneficial? And are we expected to believe your personal benefits play no part in the forming of your opinion on this matter? Pull the other one.

And while you're at it, you might want to wind your neck in a bit too. "Get suspended"?!

Who do you think you are? Leave the moderating to the moderators.

Sent from my SM-G610F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

Nice to see you all snuggling together for comfort and warmth. Bless ????

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

- Mrs. May 

'I present to you, the British people, my 'Brexit Draft Deal!'

 

 

 

 

- Democratic Britons

 

'Oh for ****'s sake!' 

 

 

---------------------------------------------------------------

Does that about sum it up? ????

[melvinmelvin]

1 hour ago, malagateddy said:

Excellent stuff Sir..I think May's shambolic deal will be torn to pieces and binned by Parliament..she will resign..new PM who will be a Brexiteer..Brussels told to go forth and multiply and whistle for the 39 big ones..then WTO here we go

Sent from my SM-G7102 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

 

doubt that the parliament will have the guts to do that

my guess is that the deal will be passed with some amendments that are of no consequence

[Grouse]

25 minutes ago, evadgib said:

@Grouse

As you're 64 can we expect you to pop up on the 'Pensions' page shortly or is everyone there wrong too?

I'll check and report back.

[billd766]

1 hour ago, sandyf said:

You do surprise me Bill.

I was on a Luftwaffe base during an exercise and couldn't believe the state of the German equipment,looked first world war rather than second.

I would have thought that you of all people would appreciate the need for forces working alongside each other to be equipped and trained to a similar standard.

In WW2 the UK had to ask the USA for assistance, if the USA was the enemy, to whom would the UK turn?

 

The general consensus in Brussels yesterday was a further 4 years and some suggested as long as 7, unlikely I will see a conclusion but fear for those left behind.

quote "

I was on a Luftwaffe base during an exercise and couldn't believe the state of the German equipment,looked first world war rather than second.

I would have thought that you of all people would appreciate the need for forces working alongside each other to be equipped and trained to a similar standard."

 

Of course they should be trained and equipped to the same standard. However they are not really there yet with their commitment to NATO, so why do you expect them to change if they form a new military?

 

Which country will lay down the standard for it? What will be the international language used by this force? Who will command it, Germany, France, Belgium, perhaps even Latvia or Luxembourg?

 

It will take years to build and the financial cost to the EU taxpayers will be enormous.

 

Why don't they want to persevere with an existing NATO, which does work and could work better still if the finances were kept up to date?

 

IMHO it is due to the dislike of the USA yet without the USA and the UK many years ago there would be no EU.

 

From what I saw on the video Nigel Farage was trying to explain to Nick Clegg that the EU was determined to build an EU military force and Nick Clegg flat out denied it.

 

Several years later Nigel Farage has been proven correct and Nick Clegg totally wrong.

 

Now where will the EU get the men and women power from to build this military force? Will they simply dismantle all of their forces committed to NATO or start from scratch?

 

As many of the EU countries at the present don't meet their financial commitment to support NATO, will this become an added burden of the EU finances by supporting NATO and the new EU military?

 

Or will the EU withdraw its military commitment to NATO and use the current forces and build on that?

[rixalex]

I will indeed leave your ill manners for the moderators.
 
Historically, 40 years ago and 20 years ago, the UK being a member of the EU was useful to me. Right now it is useful to my sister who has retired to Aragon.
 
I always planned to retire to Denmark. Such a civilised place.
 
My stance on Brexit is largely altruistic. I would like others to benefit as I was able to in the past
 
Kindly cease your ill mannered comments.
 
 

Everything i have stated is true as you yourself have just confirmed. You and your family HAVE personally benefited from the EU. How much of a role that personal benefit plays in your vociferous defence of the EU?....well, people will no doubt decide for themselves. It could just be a complete coincidence that you, tebee and adam - three of the most vocal advocates of the EU here - happen to support something that is beneficial to yourselves.

Regarding ill manners, coming from you, that really takes the biscuit. If Kwilco, or whatever his name is (he says QED a lot), has finished looking at himself, borrow his mirror.

Sent from my SM-G610F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[talahtnut]

13 hours ago, Grouse said:

Been watching listening to EU country leaders today. Very sad. What decent people.

 

We should stay close to our friends. Mad to walk away

 

I wish we had leaders like that...

Like dictators leading the UK to a dystopian 2nd class colony.

There is a world of friends to be made beyond Brussels.

There is an old saying, Good fences make good neighbours.