You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about as usual.

 

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about as usual.

 

Again.

Oh, if I would say that the British people are the brainiest of them all. The most bestest people the world has to offer, would that make you feel good?

 

The reality, unfortunately, doesn't follow how you think the world goes around. Sorry. 

 

Actually you have confirmed what I have thought for quite a while.

 

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about as usual.

 

Again.

How childish of you. I'm actually rather disappointed as I first thought you were intellectual.

 

You had great points which you brought forward earlier. Since the time passed, degeneration of those ideas became more evident. Unfortunately as I used to like your brain.

 

 

 

I'm still of the opinion that it is you who will be sorely disappointed, with the possibility of a 'people's vote' being simply that... The audacity of such a name too, unbelievable condescension.

It would seem there isn't time for the government to draft a new bill to put through the Houses / vote on and pass the bill (as they can't agree on the price of tea right now), and then allow the public to vote again - many of whom, I'd wager would abstain or stick to their original opinion. It would then have to be enshrined into UK law. 3 months doesn't seem long enough, but who knows, the amount of skulduggery going on within UK politics, corners could be cut it, so it can't be ruled out. The public's collapse in confidence would be dramatic and long-lasting though, IMO.

 

Bottom line is, the people have spoken and made themselves clear, if that decision is not listened to then democracy is simply whatever the political class want it to be and is no longer dictated by the people - the game would be up. Democracy = (lit.) rule by the people. This infers that our voices are heard and our will listened to, by majority rule. Especially in the instance of national referenda, NOT - 'oh, uh, we didn't like your first answer, have another go, please'. If we are to call ourselves a democracy and keep a straight face, then the people must be listened to. It can be dressed up in any number of ways by those who got the shock of their life in 2016, but the result still stands. Gina Millar and her band of patronising cohorts like to say for example that the issue was too 'complex' for the nation to vote on. Although I dislike her smug arrogance, she does, to some degree, have a point. However a referendum was what was offered to the people, as the gutless politicians didn't want to make the wrong or 'unpopular' decision themselves, so they gave this 'power' to the people. If this is your chosen course of action as a government, spineless in many respects though it is, then you'd better bloody well listen to what the people tell you to do. Otherwise the veil of democracy is liable to fall altogether and people will see modern politics for what it is. The second point worth making about the suggestion of a 2nd ref. is this - if everyone (who didn't get the result they wanted) is so exercised about a referendum being the way the decision was made, and that the issue was and remains a far too complex one for the man/woman in the street to answer - then why on earth would you favour a rerun?!? Totally illogical - unless, perhaps - you're desperately hoping for the first result to be overturned - and imagine that with the aid of project Fear 24/7 and the inevitable political incompetence transforming things into an almighty clusterf*** - you may get just that result. Then the points being made about the first referendum are conveniently forgotten and suddenly referendums and their results are valid once again. Pretty damn subversive, if you ask me. Why any ordinary member of the public would support this kind of subterfuge is unfathomable.

 

The danger now is that Brexit may only be a nominal one, if the 'deal' gets through parliament that is, which still seems unlikely. If it doesn't, well then I just pray that we leave as we were promised we would. Simply meaning no 21 month transition period, no 'divorce' settlement, no 'bespoke' deal - the UK didn't vote for this anyhow. The country simply exits quietly and unceremoniously on March 29th 2019. WTO rules ensue and we take our future in our own hands and make the best of it, restoring long overdue independence and some much needed confidence in our nation and democratic legitimacy. A cull within the political class is sorely needed too, of course.

Should this happen then I and many millions more democratic Britons will have a little faith restored in our country and a little more hope for our future. Fingers firmly x'd.

 

As I said, I sense a lot of fear in leavers. Parliament will ultimately decide the Brexit end game. You all seem to cling to the March 2019 deadline, a deadline that can so easily be extended to accommodate a second vote, with the EU's blessing. If a tweak of May's deal doesn't get it through then I suspect we will get a softer Brexit, but if not we are most certainly heading for another vote ... hardline Brexiters are fearful, and so they should be, because if that vote does transpire they will certainly lose. A fitting ending to an Eton inspired mess.

 

 

 

 

As I said, I sense a lot of fear in leavers. Parliament will ultimately decide the Brexit end game. You all seem to cling to the March 2019 deadline, a deadline that can so easily be extended to accommodate a second vote, with the EU's blessing. If a tweak of May's deal doesn't get it through then I suspect we will get a softer Brexit, but if not we are most certainly heading for another vote ... hardline Brexiters are fearful, and so they should be, because if that vote does transpire they will certainly lose. A fitting ending to an Eton inspired mess.

 

 

'...hardline Brexiters are fearful, and so they should be, because if that vote does transpire they will certainly lose. A fitting ending to an Eton inspired mess....' 

 

...or to put it in it's correct context -

 

a total reproach of the the largest electoral turnout in our history - the will of the majority, all 17.4m of us, being ignored and our democratic decision overturned.

To put it in other terms - the death of democracy in our nation. If this does happen it will be the end of an epoch - a tragic day for anyone with a mind and a conscience. And one things for sure, it would not be the end, it would merely, I fear, be the beginning of a long and potentially bloody decline in the UK, which would see the country become angrier and more polarised then ever before.

 

How very sad that you and others like you are willing this conclusion. 

Edited December 3, 20187 yr by CanterbrigianBangkoker

 

 

As I said, I sense a lot of fear in leavers. Parliament will ultimately decide the Brexit end game. You all seem to cling to the March 2019 deadline, a deadline that can so easily be extended to accommodate a second vote, with the EU's blessing. If a tweak of May's deal doesn't get it through then I suspect we will get a softer Brexit, but if not we are most certainly heading for another vote ... hardline Brexiters are fearful, and so they should be, because if that vote does transpire they will certainly lose. A fitting ending to an Eton inspired mess.

The way I see this, British parliament has been given to choose from the deal what is on the table and no deal at all. 

 

If I were a brit, I'd take the deal as the alternative is far worse.

 

We all know that the given deal is worse than what Britain has currently, but as said Brexit means Brexit. The British people has spoken. Not very wisely, but they have spoken. 

 

 

A Brexiteer being in charge is what should have happened from day 1, of course. I hear people say that they 'feel sorry for her' and 'that she never wanted to umpire this absolute mess', ... say what!?

She put herself up for the Prime Ministerial position and won the Tory party vote! So pull the other one!

Her election as PM was the biggest mistake of recent months IMO, as is now all too clear. She has only sabotaged every step of the process and is either conspiring against the result that she was never in favour of, or, is so woefully inept as a negotiator that she has absolutely no place being in such a powerful and important position.

 

The Soviet Union comparison is one that is so often derided by those opposed to Brexit, but there couldn't be a better analogy right now. It seems clear that when you have the likes of Mikhail Gorbachev and Vladimir Bukovsky making the exact same claims some years ago (before subsequent acts of closer union & the EU military were unveiled), everyone should take be taking note. Staggering that the EUSSR still has so many defenders. 

 

The Cabinet is full of Brexiters, and two were in charge of the exit negotiations. David Davis went awol from Brussels, and the EU lost faith in him. According to Davis everything would be easy and straightforward ... it's obvious now that he didn't have the first clue about what he was getting himself into. If he was being undermined why did he not quit the moment the penny dropped? Did he stay for the money and prestige? Or was he out of his depth, realised it, and then jumped ship when he knew that what he predicted was not practically possible? Jump ship and blame everything on other people ... two years and he doesn't take responsibility for anything. Maybe we should have put Boris in charge? He'd know doubt serve up the sequel to the charge of the light brigade ... the EU would have enjoyed making him squirm and sending him home empty handed, with all his referendum promises rammed down his stupid throat. 

 

A Brexiter would have delivered nothing of any value. May happens to be a convenient scapegoat.

 

I understand what  he meant he was trying to twist the post to suit his agenda

Nope, I was just taking the p.

 

You can placate yourself with if the FACTS had been explained to the masses before they had a chance to jump on a predominantly racist bandwagon, there wouldn't have been 17.4 million of you! There wouldn't even have been close to a majority so your democratic principles would be upheld by a second vote which the leavers would lose by a landslide!

 

The right result in the end and we can all forget this utterly disastrous ill-informed madness ever happened!

1 word: DRIVEL.

 

'...hardline Brexiters are fearful, and so they should be, because if that vote does transpire they will certainly lose. A fitting ending to an Eton inspired mess....' 

 

...or to put it in it's correct context -

 

the ignoring of the the largest electoral turnout in our history - the will of the majority, all 17.4m of us, being ignored and our democratic decision overturned.

To put it in other terms - the death of democracy in our nation. If this does happen it will be the end of an epoch - a tragic day for anyone with a mind and a conscience. And one things for sure, it would not be the end, it would merely, I fear, be the beginning of a long and potentially bloody decline in the UK, with country becoming angrier and more polarised then ever before.

 

How very sad that you and others like you are willing this conclusion. 

 

The long and bloody decline of the UK began when some prat who went to Eton decided to hold a referendum on an immensely complex and important subject. The only way that you can overcome the referendum vote is with another referendum, two democratic acts. If parliament cannot come up with a solution they have little choice but to go back to the people. That's democracy in action.

 

 

 

 

The long and bloody decline of the UK began when some prat who went to Eton decided to hold a referendum on an immensely complex and important subject. The only way that you can overcome the referendum vote is with another referendum, two democratic acts. If parliament cannot come up with a solution they have little choice but to go back to the people. That's democracy in action.

 

 

And if the second referendum returned the same close result, ie: a narrow but clear margin for Leave, as some opinion polls suggest it may, would you stick to your guns or make the same outraged cries for a 3rd referendum, I wonder? Hell, why not make it best of 10?

 

Ridiculous.

Edited December 3, 20187 yr by CanterbrigianBangkoker

 

The way I see this, British parliament has been given to choose from the deal what is on the table and no deal at all. 

 

If I were a brit, I'd take the deal as the alternative is far worse.

 

We all know that the given deal is worse than what Britain has currently, but as said Brexit means Brexit. The British people has spoken. Not very wisely, but they have spoken. 

 

I'd go along with May's plan, but not because I think it is a great outcome, but it does at least make a stab at protecting people's jobs and businesses and takes care of what I believe was uppermost in most leavers minds, freedom of movement. But it looks like there will be no breakthrough with parliament, so they have no choice but to go back to the people.

 

And if the second referendum came back with the same close result, ie: a narrow but clear margin for Leave, as some opinion polls suggest it may, would you stick to your guns or make the same outraged cries for a 3rd referendum, I wonder? Hell, why not make it best of 10?

 

Ridiculous.

 

No, I wouldn't and I don't think anyone else would either. Why? Because it is no longer the status quo vs promises, we have a much better understanding of the facts. A vote based on the facts on the table would settle the matter. 

Do the people of UK still think that UK has a possibility to stay in the union, if UK goes through a new referendum and says she wishes to stop Brexit?

 

I'm no longer too confident UK staying inside the EU would be an option anymore. This silly very Brexit show has been going on far too long that can't be stopped anymore. 

 

What I think will happen is that when British parliament keeps on playing silly games and votes down the negotiated Brexit deal, afterwards EU will say that's it. The next step is to have no-deal Brexit which hurt both sides naturally. But at least it will be the end of this the silly season and the lives will go on. 

 

No comment

 

 

I'd go along with May's plan, but not because I think it is a great outcome, but it does at least make a stab at protecting people's jobs and businesses and takes care of what I believe was uppermost in most leavers minds, freedom of movement. But it looks like there will be no breakthrough with parliament, so they have no choice but to go back to the people.

I really think that going back to the people is no longer an option from EU side. 

 

These negotiations were always between EU and Britain. British media and politicians talked in the way that the negotiations were between different ideas inside UK. It wasn't. 

 

The deal is what it is. It's that or nothing. 

 

I naturally might be wrong, but that's my impression of how Junker, Tusk et al have talked. 

 

 

Edited December 3, 20187 yr by Guest

 

Farage is a child with tarentum issues. Not a person to be taken seriously.

Point well missed. Congrats.

There are now many people talking about new referendum / people's vote.

This works well for the people in UK, who wish to stay within the EU.

 

But does anyone think why EU would want to keep the UK, which has not been the kindest member of EU over the years?

 

Without UK, our EU is able to go forward with our further integration. With UK inside, it's' a lot more difficult. 

 

Why should EU countries. The 27 of us, allow UK to keep this Brexit game going on? What is the great value of Britain, which allows it to play this game over and over again?

 

 

 

'...hardline Brexiters are fearful, and so they should be, because if that vote does transpire they will certainly lose. A fitting ending to an Eton inspired mess....' 

 

...or to put it in it's correct context -

 

a total reproach of the the largest electoral turnout in our history - the will of the majority, all 17.4m of us, being ignored and our democratic decision overturned.

To put it in other terms - the death of democracy in our nation. If this does happen it will be the end of an epoch - a tragic day for anyone with a mind and a conscience. And one things for sure, it would not be the end, it would merely, I fear, be the beginning of a long and potentially bloody decline in the UK, which would see the country become angrier and more polarised then ever before.

 

How very sad that you and others like you are willing this conclusion. 

Bring it on,why did I have the last post playing in my head while I was reading your post

 

Do the people of UK still think that UK has a possibility to stay in the union, if UK goes through a new referendum and says she wishes to stop Brexit?

 

I'm no longer too confident UK staying inside the EU would be an option anymore. This silly very Brexit show has been going on far too long that can't be stopped anymore. 

 

What I think will happen is that when British parliament keeps on playing silly games and votes down the negotiated Brexit deal, afterwards EU will say that's it. The next step is to have no-deal Brexit which hurt both sides naturally. But at least it will be the end of this the silly season and the lives will go on. 

Having watched the Greece fiasco I think that the possibility of a second referendum that cancels Brexit is still there, even with the EU. I also believe that the EU might move a little after the vote is defeated on 11 December, but only if they believe that their concession will get the deal over the line. But politicians are playing chicken with people's futures, and I'm not sure there will be as much resistance to a second vote ... if the backstop had some time limit or unilateral closure mechanism I think that would be enough. I can't believe that May has not had that conversation with Juncker, Tusk, Merkel et al. I'm sure they know what the next steps are.

 

Having watched the Greece fiasco I think that the possibility of a second referendum that cancels Brexit is still there, even with the EU. I also believe that the EU might move a little after the vote is defeated on 11 December, but only if they believe that their concession will get the deal over the line. But politicians are playing chicken with people's futures, and I'm not sure there will be as much resistance to a second vote ... if the backstop had some time limit or unilateral closure mechanism I think that would be enough. I can't believe that May has not had that conversation with Juncker, Tusk, Merkel et al. I'm sure they know what the next steps are.

Don't worry about the EU, they love it when countries vote again!

 

 

No comment

 

Old men on a pension ... harking back to some halcyon day in their childhood that never existed ... happy to see people lose their jobs and businesses fail ... so that they can't back to buying 2lb of Tripe for 10 and six.

 

 

 

Having watched the Greece fiasco I think that the possibility of a second referendum that cancels Brexit is still there, even with the EU. I also believe that the EU might move a little after the vote is defeated on 11 December, but only if they believe that their concession will get the deal over the line. But politicians are playing chicken with people's futures, and I'm not sure there will be as much resistance to a second vote ... if the backstop had some time limit or unilateral closure mechanism I think that would be enough. I can't believe that May has not had that conversation with Juncker, Tusk, Merkel et al. I'm sure they know what the next steps are.

I guess we'll see how things work out after British parliament votes down this deal in 11th. 

 

It's been saddening to see how little the British politicians care for their people over their own personal power. I never have seen such an acts in politics before. It's one of the reasons why I think EU might be better off without UK as a member. 

 

 

 

 

Old men on a pension ... harking back to some halcyon day in their childhood that never existed ... happy to see people lose their jobs and businesses fail ... so that they can't back to buying 2lb of Tripe for 10 and six.

 

 

Is that all?

 

There are now many people talking about new referendum / people's vote.

This works well for the people in UK, who wish to stay within the EU.

 

But does anyone think why EU would want to keep the UK, which has not been the kindest member of EU over the years?

 

Without UK, our EU is able to go forward with our further integration. With UK inside, it's' a lot more difficult. 

 

Why should EU countries. The 27 of us, allow UK to keep this Brexit game going on? What is the great value of Britain, which allows it to play this game over and over again?

 

 

Unfortunately, I have to agree. Normally I would favor a second referendum. I feel pity for all my friends in the U.K., and all the millions of people who did not vote to leave. 

 

But this Brexit thing has shown that the UK is too much of a risk. An unstable, deeply divided nation with too many maniacs and too much way for them to get through with their nonsense. A lose cannon. 

 

For the EU, it’s probably better to have them outside where they don’t pose a threat to the union but we can still benefit through some sort of trade deal. 

This is supposedly a leaked version of the full legal appraisal of TMs deal. 

Read and judge for yourself.

 

 http://2mbg6fgb1kl380gtk22pbxgw-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/Withdrawal-Agreement-Legal-and-Governance-Aspects.pdf

 

 

Old men on a pension ... harking back to some halcyon day in their childhood that never existed ... happy to see people lose their jobs and businesses fail ... so that they can't back to buying 2lb of Tripe for 10 and six.

 

 

What are you complaining about? The price of tripe has obviously come down. Remainers are giving it away free on TVisa.

 

There are now many people talking about new referendum / people's vote.

This works well for the people in UK, who wish to stay within the EU.

 

But does anyone think why EU would want to keep the UK, which has not been the kindest member of EU over the years?

 

Without UK, our EU is able to go forward with our further integration. With UK inside, it's' a lot more difficult. 

 

Why should EU countries. The 27 of us, allow UK to keep this Brexit game going on? What is the great value of Britain, which allows it to play this game over and over again?

 

 

 

 What planet are you on, Tony WMD Blair is the most despised politician in the U.K. 

and that takes some achieving. What ever he suggest, Decent people will vote the opposite.

 This bxsxaxrxd should be sent to live in the E.u. To be exact the International Court of Justice in The Hague, followed by a long stay in Scheneningin prison.

 

This is supposedly a leaked version of the full legal appraisal of TMs deal. 

Read and judge for yourself.

 

 http://2mbg6fgb1kl380gtk22pbxgw-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/Withdrawal-Agreement-Legal-and-Governance-Aspects.pdf

I watched the Attorney General's statements in parliament today, particularly surrounding the controversial backstop. He did not believe that the EU would have any incentive to keep the UK within the backstop as it would give Northern Ireland in particular an unfair advantage over european traders, who could contest it legally and win, and furthermore that it would not survive a legal challenge under international law ... and given that you do not have to enter it in the first place it sounds like it is not the huge issue that people believe it to be.  

 

 

I watched the Attorney General's statements in parliament today, particularly surrounding the controversial backstop. He did not believe that the EU would have any incentive to keep the UK within the backstop as it would give Northern Ireland in particular an unfair advantage over european traders, who could contest it legally and win, and furthermore that it would not survive a legal challenge under international law ... and given that you do not have to enter it in the first place it sounds like it is not the huge issue that people believe it to be.  

 

 

  The word Gullible comes to mind.

 

 

  The word Gullible comes to mind.

Yes you are, given that you didn't listen to the man speak. My understanding is that there is no payments within the backstop ... does anyone really believe that a country would be permanently locked into an arrangement that gives it advantages over other EU countries?  Bear in mind the AG is a Brexiter.