UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[kwilco]

Is this the Brexit you voted for - I think if people were split into what kind of Brexit they wanted they would fragment into little pieces..

 

take a look at this...

 

 

 

[aright]

3 hours ago, kwilco said:

It seems that reductio ad hitlerum is the order of the day for Brexiteers who seem to love to show off their profound ignorance of history.

I'm only responsible for what I say not for what you understand.

[GinBoy2]

Alrighty I'm just wading in as the dumb 'merican, but what did you actually vote for?

I've heard so many different reasons from Brits it's hard to know, but I'd say the majority seemed to be for restricting immigration.

Referendum are at best a blunt edged sword, and certainly when the question framed in such a simplistic way.

A few months back I got to see David Cameron speak in Rapid City South Dakota. I got to ask him 'why' he would ever have framed the question in such a way without any clear idea what an exit meant, since he was all for staying in.

He gave one of the most nonsensical waffling answers I have ever heard, even for a politician. But essentially he sort of admitted he did it purely to keep his own party together.
I guess that didn't pan out so well

I'll add that his answer actually made the audience at the Rushmore Center laugh, it was so ridiculous

Edited August 23, 2018 by GinBoy2

[melvinmelvin]

6 hours ago, kwilco said:

Is this the Brexit you voted for - I think if people were split into what kind of Brexit they wanted they would fragment into little pieces..

 

take a look at this...

 

 

 

 

does this movement have any weight and momentum in the UK?

freq. talked about and in the media?

 

[kwilco]

5 hours ago, aright said:

I'm only responsible for what I say not for what you understand.

Indeed...but it helps if you know what you're talking about

[tebee]

One thing tells you all you need to know about Brexit. The government aren’t publishing 80 papers entitled “What you can do with your huge new wealth and surplus generated by Brexit”

[My Thai Life]

6 hours ago, GinBoy2 said:

A few months back I got to see David Cameron speak in Rapid City South Dakota. I got to ask him 'why' he would ever have framed the question in such a way without any clear idea what an exit meant, since he was all for staying in.

I think we all agree that Cameron's management of the referendum left a lot to be desired. The reason being that he never expected a Leave decision to be returned by the voters. Especially as there was huge pressure from the UK's political parties and establishment to vote Remain. But the "elite" were proven wrong. 

 

"Restricting immigration" is something that all UK governments have promised for a long time, and they have all failed to meet their targets. But I don't think the vote to Leave was driven by one issue at all. I'm a very long-term expat Brit, so I wasn't offered a vote, but I would have voted Leave for political reasons, and increasingly I'm favouring the economic argument for Leave too.

[melvinmelvin]

what would the main economic arguments for leave be, except membership fee

 

[whatsupdoc]

33 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

"Restricting immigration" is something that all UK governments have promised for a long time, and they have all failed to meet their targets. 

The big question is of course how much that had to do with the EU... Will Brexit really change anything fundamental in this regard?

 

On the other hand, the drop in the pound value already leads to less workers from EU willing to work in the UK. Who is going to replace the nurses, fruit pickers and construction workers? Non-EU workers?

[My Thai Life]

23 minutes ago, whatsupdoc said:

The big question is of course how much that had to do with the EU... Will Brexit really change anything fundamental in this regard?

 

On the other hand, the drop in the pound value already leads to less workers from EU willing to work in the UK. Who is going to replace the nurses, fruit pickers and construction workers? Non-EU workers?

There are lots of questions aren't there. There always are in a situation of major change. And this is the biggest change for the UK in our lifetimes. I've worked internationally and in the financial sector too long to be worried about currency movements.

 

In or out of the EU, the UK needs to invest in its people. "Free" education and a focus on engineering, all kinds of engineering from civil to software, nursing, research... is what I'd support!

 

Personally, I'm sure that a lot of the fear-mongering in the press will turn out to be something like the Y2K issue.

Edited August 24, 2018 by My Thai Life

[whatsupdoc]

10 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

There are lots of questions aren't there. There always are in a situation of major change. And this is the biggest change for the UK in our lifetimes. I've worked internationally and in the financial sector too long to be worried about currency movements.

 

In or out of the EU, the UK needs to invest in its people. "Free" education and a focus on engineering, all kinds of engineering from civil to software, nursing, research... is what I'd support!

 

Personally, I'm sure that a lot of the fear-mongering in the press will turn out to be something like the Y2K issue.

That is a non-answer.

I believe many leave votes were cast because of 'restricting immigration'.

My questions again: In what way is Brexit going to make a difference with regard to immigration? Will it just replace EU workers with non-EU workers?

 

[sandyf]

18 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

Except parliament consists of MPs, that are only voted in by their constituents....

 

How many MPs do you think genuinely stand for idealistic beliefs (as opposed to self-serving....) - and therefore likely to put anything ahead of their own interests?

 

It needs to be remembered that the vast majority of constituencies voted to leave, even though their MPs supported remain....

 

Hence the ratification in parliament of article 50....

It doesn't really matter what you or I think about MP's or UK parliamentary democracy, that is the way it is. Until there is a change in the constitution external views can only try and influence decisions, not make them.

In the majority of votes the whip is exercised so the interests of MP's become irrelevant, becomes a numbers game.

[sandyf]

17 hours ago, melvinmelvin said:

? Please keep UK way outside of EFTA/EEA, not desirable.

 

UK should look at the Swiss approach- would also suit the uk better

 

 

otherwise, totally agree with what you say about schedules/profiles in OMC/wto, high time the UK starts to work on this,

it takes time.

I said many pages and threads ago that it ain't sure that the OMC/wto gang will accept UK just dressing up with the EU clothes

 

Leaving the EU is not desirable but in the event the most sensible outcome need to be found.

It should be borne in mind that Switzerland is not a major industrial economy so the industrial standards and regulations required within the EEA would not have the same impact on Switzerland as the UK. Leaving the EEA will have a very significant effect on UK industry.

[tebee]

1 minute ago, sandyf said:

Leaving the EU is not desirable but in the event the most sensible outcome need to be found.

It should be borne in mind that Switzerland is not a major industrial economy so the industrial standards and regulations required within the EEA would not have the same impact on Switzerland as the UK. Leaving the EEA will have a very significant effect on UK industry.

Both Switzerland and the EEA are outside the CU - that on it's own will have a very significant effect on UK industry.

[sandyf]

The devil is in the detail, and there is a lot of detail yet to be addressed.

 

Preferential origin at stake
Brexit also holds risk for companies that use free trade agreements when procuring some or all of their materials from the UK. After Brexit, these organizations will have to recalculate their entitlements to clarify whether the goods in question still meet the rules of origin under the given free trade agreement. The danger here is that after Brexit – by which the British component would cease to have EU origins – such EU-produced goods would no longer fulfill the rules of origin and become subject to third country duties.

http://www.globaltrademag.com/eu-trade/brexit-journey-to-the-unknown

[sandyf]

3 minutes ago, tebee said:

Both Switzerland and the EEA are outside the CU - that on it's own will have a very significant effect on UK industry.

The point was that Switzerland is not in the EEA but Norway is, which would make the Norway option less of an impact.

[sandyf]

1 hour ago, melvinmelvin said:

what would the main economic arguments for leave be, except membership fee

 

What many do not seem to realise is that it would only need a rise in the interest on the the national debt of about 12% to wipe out any gain from no membership fee.

Economic arguments do not come into it, leaving is all about emotional perception, people in the UK will be much better off out of the EU even if they are skint.

[tebee]

13 minutes ago, sandyf said:

The point was that Switzerland is not in the EEA but Norway is, which would make the Norway option less of an impact.

Yes but Switzerland has to obey more EU rules than the EEA countries and accept ECJ jurisdiction.  

[Guest]

51 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

In or out of the EU, the UK needs to invest in its people. "Free" education and a focus on engineering, all kinds of engineering from civil to software, nursing, research... is what I'd support!

 

Personally, I'm sure that a lot of the fear-mongering in the press will turn out to be something like the Y2K issue.

Sounds like you should be supporting scientific co-operation EU providers for its member states and which UK still is part of. Scientific community will still continue to work together, but the long term plans and fundings for those might be compromised. 

 

This is also one part there the lot talked Brexit exit feeds are coming from. Scientific funds were done until year 2020. 

 

Brexit could be comparable to Y2K if the necessary steps were made during this 2 years exit period, like it was made for the YK2. I was one of those people who spent my millenium night at one MNC situation room. I didn't mind as the benefits were great. We were well prepared, all the servers and softwares were patched to be ready for the change of the millenium. We had only few minor issues globally.

 

Had we not been prepared well, we could have seen data loss and lengthy periods of downtime for our businesses. 

[sandyf]

3 minutes ago, tebee said:

Yes but Switzerland has to obey more EU rules than the EEA countries and accept ECJ jurisdiction.  

All in all why I didn't agree with this comment. "UK should look at the Swiss approach- would also suit the uk better"

 

 

[rixalex]

That is a non-answer.
I believe many leave votes were cast because of 'restricting immigration'.
My questions again: In what way is Brexit going to make a difference with regard to immigration? Will it just replace EU workers with non-EU workers?
 

For a lot of people I think the issue of immigration isn't simply about reducing numbers, it's about us being in control of who comes in and being able to turn on and off the tap dependent on the country's needs. It's also about treating ALL immigrants in the same way.

In this age of great focus on equality, it's bizarre how unquestioned it has become that what is required of say an Italian wanting to move to the UK, is so different from that of say an Indian. We shouldn't be discriminating immigrants in this way. They should ALL have an equal chance and ALL be judged on their individual merits.

Now whether or not the politicians make this sort of change to the system, we'll have to wait and see. Leaving the EU doesn't guarantee it, and nor does it guarantee a fairer immigration policy. It does however make it much more easily achievable.

Sent from my SM-G610F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[sandyf]

1 hour ago, My Thai Life said:

 

Personally, I'm sure that a lot of the fear-mongering in the press will turn out to be something like the Y2K issue.

Another classic case of emotional perception. I was a self employed IT consultant and at the time picked up some work with a fairly large group as a Y2K advisor. I am not disputing the media hype, its the way of the world, but the main reason Y2K was perceived as a non event was preparation. I knew of several companies that came to grief because they shrugged it off.

 

A lot to be said for the old mantra " Fail to prepare and you prepare to fail." and its time this government took heed.

[tebee]

3 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Another classic case of emotional perception. I was a self employed IT consultant and at the time picked up some work with a fairly large group as a Y2K advisor. I am not disputing the media hype, its the way of the world, but the main reason Y2K was perceived as a non event was preparation. I knew of several companies that came to grief because they shrugged it off.

 

A lot to be said for the old mantra " Fail to prepare and you prepare to fail." and its time this government took heed.

And there has been a total lack of preparation for Brexit!

[Chomper Higgot]

2 hours ago, My Thai Life said:

I think we all agree that Cameron's management of the referendum left a lot to be desired. The reason being that he never expected a Leave decision to be returned by the voters. Especially as there was huge pressure from the UK's political parties and establishment to vote Remain. But the "elite" were proven wrong. 

 

"Restricting immigration" is something that all UK governments have promised for a long time, and they have all failed to meet their targets. But I don't think the vote to Leave was driven by one issue at all. I'm a very long-term expat Brit, so I wasn't offered a vote, but I would have voted Leave for political reasons, and increasingly I'm favouring the economic argument for Leave too.

“I would have voted Leave for political reasons,”

 

That is completely at odds with statements you have made elsewhere that youerevwere neither for or against ‘Leave/Remain’.

[tebee]

Wise words about brexit, something that is in all to short supply 

 

 

[My Thai Life]

15 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Another classic case of emotional perception. I was a self employed IT consultant and at the time picked up some work with a fairly large group as a Y2K advisor. I am not disputing the media hype, its the way of the world, but the main reason Y2K was perceived as a non event was preparation. I knew of several companies that came to grief because they shrugged it off.

 

A lot to be said for the old mantra " Fail to prepare and you prepare to fail." and its time this government took heed.

Apart from the unnecessary dig at "emotional perception", I don't disagree with you. And the government is taking heed, as we have seen in the news in the last day or two. The obvious reason that the UK gov't can't be fully prepared is that we don't know which "deal" to prepare for.

 

But there is a huge amount of scare-mongering in the MSM, some sheer nonsense like the 44% tariff on cheese, and very little balanced coverage at all.

 

I won't bother going into what I was doing in the Y2K, but we both know that a lot of the fear was unfounded. I believe the same is true today, whether you think it's "emotional perception" or not. I'm happy to compare notes after the event if you like. Have a good day.

Edited August 24, 2018 by My Thai Life

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

But there is a huge amount of scare-mongering in the MSM, some sheer nonsense like the 44% tariff on cheese, and very little balanced coverage at all.

I believe the cheese tariff as well any other tariffs can be set to 0% by the UK government once you leave the Union.

 

The financial questions are:

 

1) How does UK make money after the Brexit

 

2) How does UK government collect taxes to pay for common services?

 

[kwilco]

I have to admit I'm amazed at the obduracy of most Brexiteers in the face of overwhelming reason and evidence.

It takes a rare breed of obstinacy to stick to those guns

Edited August 24, 2018 by kwilco

[Jip99]

1 minute ago, kwilco said:

I have to admit I'm amazed at the obduracy of most Brexiteers in the face of overwhelming reason and evidence.

It takes a rare breed of obstinacy to stick to those guns

 

 

 

You are confusing obstinacy with DETERMINATION.

 

 

A determination to leave the EU, which is what we (and the majority) voted for.

 

 

 

Now..... move on.

[My Thai Life]

10 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

“I would have voted Leave for political reasons,”

 

That is completely at odds with statements you have made elsewhere that youerevwere neither for or against ‘Leave/Remain’.

As I have said many times, I would have voted Leave for Politics, and Remain for Economics. For brevity when I first joined this thread I stated that I didn't favour Leave or Remain (which I didn't overall). What did strike me and surprised me about this thread when I first joined it was the nastiness and bullying tactics of many of the "remainers".

 

To tell you the truth, I hadn't followed Brexit closely at all, as the outcome doesn't affect me adversely one way or the other. Since then I've reflected upon the personal impact, and realised that exit does open up export potential for me, which I will probably be too busy to follow up on anyway, and a weak pound would be beneficial. A strong pound would be beneficial too, as I am pretty well hedged.

 

However, the more I look into the economic cases being made for and against, the more I am coming to the conclusion that a "hard exit" is the best option economically. And it has always been the best option politically.

 

What still strikes me about this thread is the nastiness and bullying tactics of many of the "remainers". Sour grapes I guess.