UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[tebee]

Is it still the will of the people ?

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-referendum-millions-leave-voters-best-for-britain-no-deal-theresa-may-conservative-government-a8521346.html

[SheungWan]

39 minutes ago, tebee said:

Is it still the will of the people ?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-referendum-millions-leave-voters-best-for-britain-no-deal-theresa-may-conservative-government-a8521346.html

Here's the reality: Assuming a soft Brexit package was on the table, the Labour Party would prioritise allying with the Hard Brexiteers to bring down Theresa May rather than uniting with Theresa May to block a Hard Brexit outcome. Labour under Corbyn is now as toxic as anything on the Tory side as far as Brexit is concerned. Evasive and opportunist. Some Remainers are just dreamers as far as the political set-up is concerned.

Edited September 4, 2018 by SheungWan

[rixalex]

A few problems with that 
 
The EU has already indicated they are prepared to cut us away if no deal can be agreed
They are much better prepared than we are.
We have already agreed to give the 39 billion as part of the leaving process, not as part of a future deal. Reneging on that would show the UK can not be trusted.
No deal Brexit will be chaos, the only way it won't be total chaos is if the EU agree to bend some of their rules for us. This requires goodwill on their side(see above) 
the 1-2 million people who will be thrown out of work by this are not going to be happy with whoever does this. It's political suicide.   

Political suicide is going in to the most important negotiation the nation has faced in modern times with a weak, we-can't-afford-to-walk-away-from-the-table attitude, that guarantees a bad deal. That's why the poster you responded to was spot on with his, "calling their bluff" comment.

Trying to appease remainers who have blanched each and every time we have attempted to assert ourselves as a nation in the exit process, and who have cried out with comments like, "oh no you can't talk like that to the lovely people at the EU, you have to be friendly", has completely undermined our negotiating position and it is they who will be largely responsible if it does pan out badly, along with the spineless politicians who haven't just ignored them, taken the bull by the horns, and got on with things.

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[SheungWan]

6 minutes ago, rixalex said:

Political suicide is going in to the most important negotiation the nation has faced in modern times with a weak, we-can't-afford-to-walk-away-from-the-table attitude, that guarantees a bad deal. That's why the poster you responded to was spot on with his, "calling their bluff" comment.
Trying to appease remainers who have blanched each and every time we have attempted to assert ourselves as a nation in the exit process, and who have cried out with comments like, "oh no you can't talk like that to the lovely people at the EU, you have to be friendly", has completely undermined our negotiating position and it is they who will be largely responsible if it does pan out badly, along with the spineless politicians who haven't just ignored them, taken the bull by the horns, and got on with things.
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Usual Kamikaze nonsense and Spitfire Baloney from Hard Brexiteers who never wanted any negotiations from Day 1.

[transam]

I read the EU is looking into stopping the UK altering the clocks, the summer time thingy...

 

What's next...?

[BwindiBoy]

10 hours ago, Stupooey said:

I deliberately restricted my calculations to the over 65s for simplicity, and also because this age group accounted for almost 90% of the deaths.as I was only counting the number of Leave voters who had died, if I had included other age groups then my final figure would of course have been somewhat higher. Surveys have also shown that comparatively few people have changed their mind since 2016 regarding the way they might vote again; there is certainly no evidence to suggest that when people hit the magic 65 they suddenly change from being Remain supporters to backing Leave (I didn't for one!).

You conveniently also didn't factor in the over 65 Remainers that died, resulting (based on your figures) in a net 110,000 more Brexiters dying, per year, than Remainers.  So after TEN YEARS it would be 50/50, based purely on these figures...even though a further x'000'000 would then be over 65.  Effectively, you attempt at trying to suggest there's new momentum for Remain is severely flawed.

[SheungWan]

1 minute ago, transam said:

I read the EU is looking into stopping the UK altering the clocks, the summer time thingy...

What's next...?

Hard Brexiteer clocks stopped 50 years ago.

[rixalex]

Is it still the will of the people ?
 
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-referendum-millions-leave-voters-best-for-britain-no-deal-theresa-may-conservative-government-a8521346.html

If you look a little closely at the net figures they speculate have moved to the remain side, it makes you wonder how they can then proclaim that if their predictions are correct, a CLEAR win for remain would be the outcome.

The margin of victory would be similar to the margin of victory in 2016 for leave, which the people behind this article have been arguing for the last two years was NOT clear.



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[vogie]

10 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

Usual Kamikaze nonsense and Spitfire Baloney from Hard Brexiteers who never wanted any negotiations from Day 1.

Didn't want is different to, didn't get.

[Chomper Higgot]

37 minutes ago, rixalex said:

Political suicide is going in to the most important negotiation the nation has faced in modern times with a weak, we-can't-afford-to-walk-away-from-the-table attitude, that guarantees a bad deal. That's why the poster you responded to was spot on with his, "calling their bluff" comment.

Trying to appease remainers who have blanched each and every time we have attempted to assert ourselves as a nation in the exit process, and who have cried out with comments like, "oh no you can't talk like that to the lovely people at the EU, you have to be friendly", has completely undermined our negotiating position and it is they who will be largely responsible if it does pan out badly, along with the spineless politicians who haven't just ignored them, taken the bull by the horns, and got on with things.

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Brexit wrecked by some anti Brexit comment made by someone on a Thailand expat orientated forum.

 

That’s new!

Edited September 4, 2018 by Chomper Higgot

[Chomper Higgot]

17 minutes ago, vogie said:

Didn't want is different to, didn't get.

Sensible people make a plan to get what they want.

 

Brexiteers got exactly what they planned to get.

[Stupooey]

25 minutes ago, BwindiBoy said:

You conveniently also didn't factor in the over 65 Remainers that died, resulting (based on your figures) in a net 110,000 more Brexiters dying, per year, than Remainers.  So after TEN YEARS it would be 50/50, based purely on these figures...even though a further x'000'000 would then be over 65.  Effectively, you attempt at trying to suggest there's new momentum for Remain is severely flawed.

I made it clear that I was only talking about Leavers, triggered by a chance remark someone had made to me. In a later post, at the request of another poster, I gave the corresponding figure for Remainers.

The point I was making was that more Leavers than Remainers were dying off and that, in all probability, more Remainers than Leavers were coming on to the electoral roll. This would in part explain why all indicators show that the current opinion of the electorate is 52-48 in favour of Remain.

Whenever I post a conclusion, I always try to give the reasoning behind it (usually by applying logic to a set of facts, statistics, opinions, surveys etc.). Responses always seem to criticise the conclusion, but never offer counterarguments to the methodology behind it, which would be preferable and more instructive.

[vogie]

17 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Sensible people make a plan to get what they want.

 

Brexiteers got exactly what they planned to get.

Brexiteers, nor Remainers have got anything yet. Life is just one big mystery.

[Chomper Higgot]

4 minutes ago, vogie said:

Brexiteers, nor Remainers have got anything yet. Life is just one big mystery.

Brexit has nothing to do with Remain.

 

If you voted for Brexit, you own it.

[transam]

25 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Sensible people make a plan to get what they want.

 

Brexiteers got exactly what they planned to get.

Shame the sensible UK gov people of the day didn't insist on a sensible get out clause eh...?

[Chomper Higgot]

12 minutes ago, transam said:

Shame the sensible UK gov people of the day didn't insist on a sensible get out clause eh...?

Article 50 is reversible.

[vogie]

27 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Brexit has nothing to do with Remain.

 

If you voted for Brexit, you own it.

And I wear that badge with pride, but don't come running to me when you want to join our club, you have made your bed, now lie in it.

[rixalex]

Brexit wrecked by some anti Brexit comment made by someone on a Thailand expat orientated forum.
 
That’s new!

It's a new level of incomprehension. Where did I state anything about "comments made by someone on a Thailand expat orientated forum"?

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[sandyf]

On 9/3/2018 at 4:12 AM, aright said:

In the same way, no one knows the will of the people in Europe regarding the political and social future of the EU beyond knowing there are escalating right wing factions expressing their dissatisfaction with the euro and an undemocratic, inequitable system resulting in serious disorder on the streets.. I think many, don't  recognize, that by successive steps, each having a disguised economic purpose, they are being guided towards a superstate which will eventually, irreversibly lead to federation. Cooperation between friendly sovereign states is not a recipe for Federalism.

I had a vote which let me express my dissatisfaction with the EU. Beyond voting for extreme right wing parties resulting in possible civil disorder how can the Europeans change a system many don't like. Mr Macron refuses a referendum in France because he says the French will vote out......very democratic. Marine le Pen has agreed to one.  The EU made a big fuss this week about abolishing daylight summer time....is that as good as it gets from the EC? Why does the EC want to limit democracy? At every dissatisfaction turn the EC continues to sit on its hands and Remainers keep telling us they will change it from within. How?

 

 

https://uk.yahoo.com/news/migrant-crisis-haunts-eu-three-years-merkels-fateful-020048353.html

At the end of the day it is all about money, austerity got the UK into this mess.

It is only the staunch brexiteers that would put the cost of brexit before the welfare of the nation using the so called 'will of the people'.

It was never the will of the people to deprive essential services of adequate funding yet that has been the result. The administrative costs alone so far would have made a huge impact to GP waiting times, a major bitch against 'foreigners'.

[melvinmelvin]

1 hour ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Sensible people make a plan to get what they want.

 

Brexiteers got exactly what they planned to get.

 

Probably right. Farage comes to mind.  ?

 

[transam]

16 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

Probably right. Farage comes to mind.  ?

 

Nye Bevan comes to my mind....?

[billd766]

12 hours ago, Stupooey said:

Using the same parameters, about 325,000 over-65 Remain voters have died.

 

If they followed a similar pattern to 18-24 year olds in 2016 (64% turnout, 73% Remain, 27% leave), of the approximately 1,500,000 new voters I would expect about 700,000 to vote Remain and 260,000 Leave.

 

Lots of assumptions, of course, but it's all we can go on and is probably fairly accurate.

 

Thank you for coming back with that.

 

Unfortunately the problems with assumptions is simply that is all they are. Your assumption and your opinion on the way that you think.

 

This is simply my opinion (and no animals or children were hurt when I made it).

 

Will there be a second referendum? IMHO, no there won't because the people who control referendums, (the government) don't want one.

 

Will the people of the UK get to vote on the final deal before it happens? Again IMHO and for the same reason as above.

 

Will the final deal be approved by parliament?

 

TBH I have no idea. There are so many loose ends to tie up.

 

The SNP will be against it for sure but they are not the only party in Scotland. Wales and NI I think it is easier to toss a coin 5 times and call the result.

 

Many of the Tories will vote for, but a lot will vote against, some will probably abstain. The Tories will also be looking ahead at their constituencies and the next election.

Lib-Dems mostly against but some will not be, Greens and also rans is anybodies guess.

 

That leaves Labour. IMHO it depends who is the Labour leader at the time of the vote whether they follow Corbyn's lead or not. A lot will vote against as Labour, like the Tories, will also be looking ahead at their constituencies and the next election. 

 

As for the people of the UK, to me that is anybodies guess. If the vote goes one and the constituents don't like that there may be new MP at the next election.

 

[rixalex]

At the end of the day it is all about money, austerity got the UK into this mess.
It is only the staunch brexiteers that would put the cost of brexit before the welfare of the nation using the so called 'will of the people'.
It was never the will of the people to deprive essential services of adequate funding yet that has been the result. The administrative costs alone so far would have made a huge impact to GP waiting times, a major bitch against 'foreigners'.

Staunch remainers can equally be accused of putting the cost of derailing and messing up Brexit - in order to get their way of having the referendum result overturned, or failing that, have a Brexit that causes most damage so they can victoriously declare, "see we told you so, it's a disaster, let's rejoin quick-sharpish" - before the welfare of the nation.

No particular moral high ground on either side of the debate.

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[billd766]

3 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Brexit wrecked by some anti Brexit comment made by someone on a Thailand expat orientated forum.

 

That’s new!

 

Rubbish.

 

Do you think that anybody in the UK government cares about the comments on a little English language forum in Thailand?

[Grouse]

8 hours ago, bristolboy said:

The only way it would make sense for a common currency like the Euro would be for fiscal union with all the  other nations that use it. In other words. a genuine United States of Europe. And that is simply untenable.

Not for all layers of the European onion I agree. But the core will go that way.

 

UK should remain in an outer layer but still within the skin

 

Better on the inside pissing out etc

[Chomper Higgot]

18 minutes ago, billd766 said:

 

Rubbish.

 

Do you think that anybody in the UK government cares about the comments on a little English language forum in Thailand?

The rubbish is the assertion that Brexit failures are due to the comment made by those of Remain.

 

I nowhere suggested the U.K. government listens to what is said here.

 

They don’t afterall listen to anyone.

 

 

[nauseus]

19 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Not for all layers of the European onion I agree. But the core will go that way.

 

UK should remain in an outer layer but still within the skin

 

Better on the inside pissing out etc

Oldie but goodie (like me) ?.

 

http://www.maxazine.nl/2012/04/29/muziektip-van-de-dag-marvin-gaye-tammi-terrell-the-onion-song-1970/

 

Great lyrics.

Edited September 4, 2018 by nauseus

[rixalex]

The rubbish is the assertion that Brexit failures are due to the comment made by those of Remain.
 
I nowhere suggested the U.K. government listens to what is said here.
 
They don’t afterall listen to anyone.
 
 

Rubbish is the assertion that people in positions of power, people in the media, people in parliament, people even in the government itself for goodness sake, talking down the country, talking up the EU, pushing and pressuring for our negotiators to not have walking away from the table as an option, talking about wanting to rerun the referendum, putting obstacles in the way, delaying every step of the process, has had no effect on how things have or have not progressed. Dealing with such people and trying to accommodate to their wishes has led to the wishy washy, indecisive and inept approach we have seen, added to the fact that the government is useless and the PM is a joke.

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[aright]

4 hours ago, SheungWan said:

Hard Brexiteer clocks stopped 50 years ago.

That's what happens when you try beating on a wall trying to make it into a door.

[mommysboy]

Ironically, the only option available at this moment is the 'Chequers deal'.  It's unpopularity is set to be on a par with poll tax.  And it has united both Leavers and Remainers.

 

It has now been roundly rejected by Barnier, and rumblings in all parties suggest that it stands very little chance of being approved by Parliament; a no deal Brexit would likely get the same treatment. 

 

The latest opinion polls have been rather damning for the Leavers.  Really though, I think their reservation is more about the vehicle being hitched to the Tory bandwagon. I say again, I don't think there has ever been a more wretched government.

 

Common sense needs to apply: there are many times in life when we simply can't get what we want, and there comes a time when the problems associated with doing something outweigh its benefits (if any).  I don't think we need another vote, it would only tell us what we know, namely that the country is split on the matter of wanting to leave the EU, and that is no way to proceed with anything either way.

 

The moderate, the clear thinker, the strategist would likely suggest that a suitable half way house be found.  This imo would likely involve the two stage process now being vaunted- the UK leaves to join the EEA, Norway style, and meanwhile negotiations can take place over a more suitable deal, Canada style, to take place some time later.

 

Both Remainers and Leavers should take note that people who demand all or nothing frequently end up with the latter.