UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[bristolboy]

1 minute ago, Card said:

I am not trying to persuade you either way. I am characterizing British democracy. That democracy is both the expression of the will of the people enclosed in the proper managed process in which it is garnered. Both were satisfied in the referendum. To now claim that minds have changed, presumably determined by opinion polls, which do not constitute either the expression or process by which the will of the people is determined, is wrong. There is  a chance of another vote but first the will of the people gathered in the correct manner has to be fulfilled and the passing of the Brexit Bill will ensure that happens. That is not denying democracy, it is extending it. You can twist the result in any way you want in your own mind, but you are wrong because you do not know what British constitutional democracy is all about..

Since the British Constitution is not a written document it seems impossible to be definitive about something like an advisory referendum. In fact, the British Constitution, such as it is, is whatever it turns out to be.

[Card]

Just now, bristolboy said:

Since the British Constitution is not a written document it seems impossible to be definitive about something like an advisory referendum. In fact, the British Constitution, such as it is, is whatever it turns out to be.

The UK has an unwritten constitution based on precedence and parliamentary sovereignty.

[Chomper Higgot]

6 minutes ago, aright said:

 

I see it is rumoured  Mrs Merkel would like to see a German (Peter Altmaier....former Economics Minister)) chosen as successor to Jean-Claude Juncker as President of the European Committee.

The Secretary General of the Commission (Martin Selmayr) is German as is the secretary General of the European Parliament.

The President of the centre-right Federation is German so is the Secretary General  of the European Party of European Socialists . It is being proposed however that Manfred Weber who has never held ministerial office run for the EPP post ……..obviously German.

Are you thinking what I'm thinking?

 

 

Erm no.

 

I’m thinking you should skip believing rumors.

[bristolboy]

Just now, Card said:

The UK has an unwritten constitution based on precedence and parliamentary sovereignty.

And the precedence for advisory referenda is...?

[Card]

1 minute ago, bristolboy said:

And the precedence for advisory referenda is...?

You tell me. I cannot recall any advisory referenda in British history can you?

Edited September 4, 2018 by Card

[tebee]

1 minute ago, bristolboy said:

And the precedence for advisory referenda is...?

The precedence for all referendums having to be advisory is the constitutional principle of parliamentary authority.   

[bristolboy]

1 minute ago, tebee said:

The precedence for all referendums having to be advisory is the constitutional principle of parliamentary authority.   

I'm with you but apparently Card disagrees.

Although it would be an interesting question whether or not Parliament could legislate a referendum that was not advisory but determinative.

[aright]

2 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Erm no.

 

I’m thinking you should skip believing rumors.

I didn't include the best rumor………...

 

"This is the question being asked in Berlin. Might Angela Merkel herself seek to be the first woman president of the commission? She has the weight, the authority, the proven government record, international reputation and status, and more political experience and skills than all of today’s European politicians put together."

IMO.....the best bet.

[Card]

3 minutes ago, tebee said:

The precedence for all referendums having to be advisory is the constitutional principle of parliamentary authority.   

Prove it.

[Card]

2 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

I'm with you but apparently Card disagrees.

Although it would be an interesting question whether or not Parliament could legislate a referendum that was not advisory but determinative.

Of course it can. It already has done. I wish it couldn't and hadn't but it has.

Edited September 4, 2018 by Card

[bristolboy]

8 minutes ago, Card said:

Of course it can. It already has done.

But Parliament chose not to do it this time. So that would seem to be an argument against Constitutional support in the current case.

Edited September 4, 2018 by bristolboy

[Bluespunk]

23 minutes ago, Card said:

I am not trying to persuade you either way. I am characterizing British democracy. That democracy is both the expression of the will of the people enclosed in the proper managed process in which it is garnered. Both were satisfied in the referendum. To now claim that minds have changed, presumably determined by opinion polls, which do not constitute either the expression or process by which the will of the people is determined, is wrong. There is  a chance of another vote but first the will of the people gathered in the correct manner has to be fulfilled and the passing of the Brexit Bill will ensure that happens. That is not denying democracy, it is extending it. You can twist the result in any way you want in your own mind, but you are wrong because you do not know what British constitutional democracy is all about..

I disagree with your characterization of what democracy is.

 

The right to change your mind is a key aspect of any democracy.

 

To say one vote is all you get on an issue is intrinsically anti democratic.

 

There is no reason any vote on the final brexit deal cannot include a don't leave option.

 

I know all about British Constitutional Democracy as it was part of my degree.

 

Mainly being...there is no written, codified, constitution...

Edited September 4, 2018 by Bluespunk

[tebee]

11 minutes ago, Card said:

Prove it.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2000/41/contents

[Card]

8 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

I disagree with your characterization of what democracy is.

 

The right to change your mind is a key aspect of any democracy.

 

To say one vote is all you get on an issue is intrinsically anti democratic.

 

There is no reason any vote on the final brexit deal cannot include a don't leave option.

 

I know all about British Constitutional Democracy as it was part of my degree.

 

Mainly being...there is no written, codified, constitution...

Why do you find the concept of democracy so difficult? I have already said people can change their minds but their is a proper democratic process to fulfill to honor their wishes.

[Card]

7 minutes ago, tebee said:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2000/41/contents

A link is not proof. I suggest you summarise your idea of proof, rather than just sending a link.

Edited September 4, 2018 by Card

[SheungWan]

30 minutes ago, aright said:

 

I see it is rumoured  Mrs Merkel would like to see a German (Peter Altmaier....former Economics Minister)) chosen as successor to Jean-Claude Juncker as President of the European Committee.

The Secretary General of the Commission (Martin Selmayr) is German as is the secretary General of the European Parliament.

The President of the centre-right Federation is German so is the Secretary General  of the European Party of European Socialists . It is being proposed however that Manfred Weber who has never held ministerial office run for the EPP post ……..obviously German.

Are you thinking what I'm thinking?

Yes. ----->?

[melvinmelvin]

On 9/1/2018 at 4:05 PM, Grouse said:

http://uir.ulster.ac.uk/14252/1/GT-NonReRef.doc

 

for interest

 

 

have spent quite some time on this pot,

think I've got the hang of most of it, not all though

 

anyway,

dunno what kind of education Cameron has, but this paper contains food for him . . . .

 

 

[Bluespunk]

1 minute ago, Card said:

Why do you find the concept of democracy so difficult? I have already said people can change their minds but their is a proper democratic process to fulfill to honor their wishes.

I have a very clear understanding of Democracy.

 

One aspect is that people have the right to vote to reverse a decision. 

 

There is no democratic reason a don't leave option cannot be included.

[Card]

17 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

I disagree with your characterization of what democracy is.

 

The right to change your mind is a key aspect of any democracy.

 

To say one vote is all you get on an issue is intrinsically anti democratic.

 

There is no reason any vote on the final brexit deal cannot include a don't leave option.

 

I know all about British Constitutional Democracy as it was part of my degree.

 

Mainly being...there is no written, codified, constitution...

The Brexit bill enacted into UK law prevents a don't leave option.

[aright]

7 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

Yes. ----->?

You don't have to be apologetic.

[Bluespunk]

2 minutes ago, Card said:

The Brexit bill enacted into UK law prevents a don't leave option.

There is no brexit bill enacted into UK law as of yet, or have you time traveled back from the future...

[melvinmelvin]

1 hour ago, Card said:

There are no sovereign states in the EU because EU law takes precedence over all their laws.

i am not talking about states within eu

 

[Card]

46 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

There is no brexit bill enacted into UK law as of yet, or have you time traveled back from the future...

EU Withdrawal Bill received royal assent from Queen Elizabeth II on 26 June, resulting in the bill becoming law 

[melvinmelvin]

1 hour ago, tomacht8 said:

And I can understand the UK well.
Unfortunately they are split almost in the middle 48:52.
And the polls, however, by whom, already show movements.
Too bad that UK policy is unable to find compromises.

 

you know, this 48 - 52 split I would call a very decisive result

but it obviously does not sell in UK

 

[Card]

14 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

i am not talking about states within eu

 

So which sovereign european states do you mean then?

[Bluespunk]

9 minutes ago, Card said:

EU Withdrawal Bill received royal assent from Queen Elizabeth II on 26 June, resulting in the bill becoming law 

That is not the brexit deal. 

 

There is no reason that decision cannot be rescinded. 

 

There is no brexit deal yet and at present we are still in the eu. 

 

There is no democratic reason that a don’t leave option cannot be included in any final vote. 

Edited September 4, 2018 by Bluespunk

[melvinmelvin]

2 minutes ago, Card said:

So which sovereign european states do you mean then?

the efta signatories

 

[Card]

4 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

That is not the brexit deal. 

 

There is no brexit deal yet and at present we are still in the eu. 

 

There is no democratic reason that a don’t leave option cannot be included in any final vote. 

You confuse the Brexit deal with the Brexit Bill. The Brexit Bill puts the UK leaving the EU into law. Why can't you comprehend much? There cannot be a 'No leave' option in the vote on the final deal because Parliament has already passed the Brexit Bill that enacts our leaving the EU into law. Got it?

Edited September 4, 2018 by Card

[Bluespunk]

Just now, Card said:

You confuse the Brexit deal with the Brexit Bill. The Brexit Bill puts the UK leaving the EU into law. Why can't you comprehend much?

That decision is neither binding or irreversible. 

 

There is no brexit deal yet, as the U.K. is still in the eu. 

[bristolboy]

 

1 minute ago, Card said:

You confuse the Brexit deal with the Brexit Bill. The Brexit Bill puts the UK leaving the EU into law. Why can't you comprehend much?

It doesn't put Brexit into law. It governs how the Parliament will deal with possible outcomes of the negotiations. Nothing in the bill prevents or can prevent another bill from being enacted in regard to Brexit including its nullification.