UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[mommysboy]

2 hours ago, rixalex said:

While I agree that the government was woefully unprepared for the leave vote, and deserves plenty of criticism for that, at the end of the day, leaving the EU is something that has never been done before, and so by nature, it is not something that can be plotted out with certainty every step of the process. There are far too many unknown variables involved, and it's not only up to Britain, there is a third party from which agreement needs to be sought. How can that be predicted?

So for those arguing Brexit should have been planned out before the vote, you're asking for something that could have only been provided by someone who was lying. It's simply not possible. Not in detail anyway.

What is the solution to this? Either you use the unpredictability as a reason to forever deny the people a say, since what you demand will never be available (a nice and convenient outcome for remainers), or you accept that the people have a right to have their say and that allowing that say comes before being able to precisely plot out the future of the country, something which can't be done even inside the EU anyway.

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The Government was totally unprepared, but are you seriously suggesting it stops there?

 

 

[melvinmelvin]

16 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

Moderate politics seems to have been eclipsed; it hasn't done much for the ordinary man anyway.  If I'm going to be faced with a choice of extreme right or left, then left I go.  Plus, Corbyn appears to be strong, charismatic, and honest to his cause. In contrast....... well, I don't really need to say more.

 

I think Labour would get a better deal than the Tories, whose integrity I very much doubt.

 

left - right - honest - dishonest / mai pen rai

 

if the labour conf before xmas decides,  in a potentially  infinite lack of wisdom, that labour should split into left branch and centre branch

you will cement continued tory crap for years and years

[rixalex]

The Government was totally unprepared, but are you seriously suggesting it stops there?
 
 

What stops where?

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[mommysboy]

7 minutes ago, rixalex said:

What stops where?

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The Governments ineptitude of course relating to the omnishambles that is Brexit, which goes far wider and deeper than merely being unprepared.  

 

 

 

 

[aright]

1 hour ago, whatsupdoc said:

This is (a bad attempt at) scaremongering and the chance that your 'EU implosion' will happen anytime soon is lower than the chance that planes will be grounded after Brexit.

Is this the Leavers 'Project Fear' propaganda?

Did you read it and try to understand it?

I said Should the whole nation suffer as a result of medium to long term damage inflicted by staying in the EU?  

I will take the short to medium  term economic difficulties which can be resolved with good intent on both sides and/or globally over the impending EU implosion.

No reference to a specific time frame only a broad sequential reference which doesn't disagree with your comment . I can put it on the page but I can't understand or interpret it for you.

Why not concentrate on my view and your reply as to how valuable the Euro has been to all EU members and the message we should take from the escalating voting appetite for extreme right wing parties and what the EU should do about it (sod all I would have said so far but its only been 2 years).....your views would be much more interesting than mine ( your "Project Fact" propaganda) since I am sure it will represent reality not scaremongering like mine. 

[melvinmelvin]

36 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

The Governments ineptitude of course relating to the omnishambles that is Brexit, which goes far wider and deeper than merely being unprepared.  

 

 

 

 

 

I really like that term, omnishambles, pretty descriptive, fits well with the White House also me thinks

 

I wonder if Americans at large are sufficiently educated to understand omni ....

 

[SheungWan]

5 hours ago, vogie said:

Serious question how can Labour remove Corbyn when it's the left wing union and the Labour members who control the selection of its leader. Corbyn has destroyed the Labour party, now it is a party of Stalinists, Trots and Communists. When all Corbyn can offer as his left and righthand comrades is Abbott and McDonnall there will never ever be a credible opposition to the Tories and Brexit. 

There is talk now of decent Labour MPs and maybe members from other partys breaking away and starting a new centrist party, maybe the countrys only option now, but will the MPs have the balls to do it, but new partys do not do well in Westminster.

You are a little bit out of date on the selection of the Labour leader. The vote is now one member one vote. It used to be a combination with union votes wielded as a block in significant numbers. The union block vote was a moderating influence please note. With the current setup, the Party allowed the 3 pound member and this permitted the current influx to join in enthusiasm for the Jeremy Corbyn cult. All previous breakaways from Labour have ended badly. Throw in the fact that even if Corbyn loses the next election badly he is unlikely to resign and you have the formula for Labour reducing itself to a rump endlessly screaming about the evil Tories.

[SheungWan]

3 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

I really like that term, omnishambles, pretty descriptive, fits well with the White House also me thinks

I wonder if Americans at large are sufficiently educated to understand omni ....

Probably about the same level as Brits at large.

[rixalex]

The Governments ineptitude of course relating to the omnishambles that is Brexit, which goes far wider and deeper than merely being unprepared.  
 
 
 
 

Agreed. And?

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[sandyf]

2 hours ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

where I come from there is a saying along the lines of;

     thy shall hear an awful lot before the ears fall off

 

compromise does not come into it? what the f

whats the point of negotiating then?

 

treaty based my a,

treaties are routinely amended, I would guess, almost every damned day of the year

treaty stuff and international law is fairly soft shit, you can do almost what you like as long as the memberships agree

 

the EEA treaty is a special case,

probably by far the most complex treaty ever put on paper,

very very few people in the world know all the ins and outs of that treaty, fewer than 10 I'd say.

and none of them are in the UK

 

now, that is NO REASON WHATSOEVER not to change it

 

You can spin it any way you want but the Art 50 negotiations are to do with the withdrawal agreement. It is TM that keeps bringing up issues that are related to treaties and not part of the withdrawal negotiations and then people are surprised when the EU turns round and puts their foot down.

They made it perfectly clear from day one that the withdrawal agreement would be based on citizens rights,financial settlement and the Irish border, anything else was to come later. TM has consistently refused to accept that position which has led to the current mess.

Why on earth should the EU change anything to suit one discontented member, maybe you have forgotten who voted to do what.

[Guest]

Funny how everything is connected. Now China threatens UK's post brexit deal, if UK's naval forces doesn't behave well in the Parcell islands. 

 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-britain/china-warns-britain-ties-at-risk-after-warship-mission-idUSKCN1LN037

[sandyf]

TM thinks that Chequers is the only solution, EU thinks differently.

 

“Secondly, we have two major problems, two issues that we cannot accept. Our customs union, our customs system, as it works, is a fully integrated system that cannot be undermined and we cannot split up the four freedoms of the single market. We are prepared to discuss a customs agreement of some sort that simplifies customs arrangements between the United Kingdom and the EU. Customs cooperation could even be part of a free trade agreement, if it went that far, but we do have a problem with the way in which our customs controls and checks work at the moment. 

“There is a clear link between customs controls and regulatory controls and that is not covered in your white paper. Your proposal does not seem workable to us, basically.”

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-chequers-nodeal-latest-michel-barnier-mps-commons-eu-committee-not-workable-transcript-a8527111.html

[whatsupdoc]

1 hour ago, aright said:

Did you read it and try to understand it?

I said Should the whole nation suffer as a result of medium to long term damage inflicted by staying in the EU?  

 

The country I come from benefits from being in the EU, joining the Euro and Schengen.

The UK would benefit from staying in the EU.

I really have no idea what medium to long term damage you are talking about.

 

But there will be damage (short , medium and long term) from leaving the EU.

Actually it is already there for the UK and will get a lot worse after next March.

Enjoy what you voted for....

[Grouse]

8 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Well apart from the blatant fact that Brexit is a Tory mess.

 

The referrendum was a direct result of internal fighting within the Tory Party and it is the Trories who are supposed to be managing Brexit.

 

Nothing to do with Labour, nothing  do with Corbyn.

 

So who should I support? There is no party occupying the center ground. To support an unreconstructed Trot because "he's a nice old man" is pathetic.

[Grouse]

5 hours ago, aright said:

Should the whole nation suffer as a result of medium to long term damage inflicted by staying in the EU?

Do we want to tie ourselves to a Union dominated by Germany who have used the Euro not as a financial but a political tool ?  A Union which caused Greece to fold so easily and handed over their country to Germany in exchange for folding money. IMO Italy will follow soon...…...things like this happen...……..a bit like a Dictatorship really.

I can see Italy being forced out of the Euro which will result in massive pressure on the German banking system (already faltering), Italy et al will then start defaulting on their massive loans. Other countries will follow soon in this slow motion car crash. France and the Netherlands will be powerless to help......they have problems as well.

I am not sure if this is scaremongering or a warning but I am sure you will advise me and if the rise of extreme right wing parties in Europe isn't a warning I don't know what is. . 

No thanks! I will take the short to medium  term economic difficulties which can be resolved with good intent on both sides and/or globally over the impending EU implosion.

 

What has the Euro got to do withBrexit? Nothing. You are just muddying the waters.

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

I really like that term, omnishambles, pretty descriptive, fits well with the White House also me thinks

 

I wonder if Americans at large are sufficiently educated to understand omni ....

 

They use cluster ****

[bristolboy]

5 hours ago, aright said:

Should the whole nation suffer as a result of medium to long term damage inflicted by staying in the EU?

Do we want to tie ourselves to a Union dominated by Germany who have used the Euro not as a financial but a political tool ?  A Union which caused Greece to fold so easily and handed over their country to Germany in exchange for folding money. IMO Italy will follow soon...…...things like this happen...……..a bit like a Dictatorship really.

I can see Italy being forced out of the Euro which will result in massive pressure on the German banking system (already faltering), Italy et al will then start defaulting on their massive loans. Other countries will follow soon in this slow motion car crash. France and the Netherlands will be powerless to help......they have problems as well.

I am not sure if this is scaremongering or a warning but I am sure you will advise me and if the rise of extreme right wing parties in Europe isn't a warning I don't know what is. . 

No thanks! I will take the short to medium  term economic difficulties which can be resolved with good intent on both sides and/or globally over the impending EU implosion.

 

You see Italy being forced out of the Eurozone? Have you learned nothing from the last crisis? Italy should be so lucky. The nations of the Eurozone won't want Italy out. And in or out, if Italy's banking system crashes that will be primarily a Eurozone problem to repair. And if the crash does happen, being out of the EU won't help the UK. It's entirely irrelevant. If British banks are exposed to Italy's default, it won't be because the UK is a member of the EU. It will be because they have made bad loans.. Keep in mind that in the last crash the UK was not required to pitch in to rescue Greece, or rather, rescue the bankers who foolishly lent to Greece. That was strictly a Eurozone banking problem.

[aright]

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

What has the Euro got to do withBrexit? Nothing. You are just muddying the waters.

If you believe it's a financial tool nothing but if you believe it's a political tool everything. That should polish the water.  

 

[mommysboy]

3 hours ago, rixalex said:

Agreed. And?

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And that omnishambles can be fairly laid at the Government's door, with little mitigation because it has by turns been dishonest, evasive, undemocratic, incompetent, and altogether quite pathetic.

 

 

[aright]

2 hours ago, whatsupdoc said:

The country I come from benefits from being in the EU, joining the Euro and Schengen.

The UK would benefit from staying in the EU.

I really have no idea what medium to long term damage you are talking about.

 

But there will be damage (short , medium and long term) from leaving the EU.

Actually it is already there for the UK and will get a lot worse after next March.

Enjoy what you voted for....

What proof do you have of UK damage when we leave?

Did you forget my questions? 

Why not concentrate on my view and your reply as to how valuable the Euro has been to all EU members and the message we should take from the escalating voting appetite for extreme right wing parties and what the EU should do about it (sod all I would have said so far but its only been 2 years).....your views would be much more interesting than mine ( your "Project Fact" propaganda) since I am sure it will represent reality not scaremongering like mine. 

I hope you don't have to suffer for what you didn't vote for.

[adammike]

1 minute ago, aright said:

What proof do you have of UK damage when we leave?

Did you forget my questions? 

Why not concentrate on my view and your reply as to how valuable the Euro has been to all EU members and the message we should take from the escalating voting appetite for extreme right wing parties and what the EU should do about it (sod all I would have said so far but its only been 2 years).....your views would be much more interesting than mine ( your "Project Fact" propaganda) since I am sure it will represent reality not scaremongering like mine. 

I hope you don't have to suffer for what you didn't vote for.

Like reading the daily express.

[aright]

1 minute ago, adammike said:

Like reading the daily express.

If that's the paper you like, who am I to criticize.

If you have no answers to my questions this conversation is finished.

 

[Guest]

34 minutes ago, aright said:

What proof do you have of UK damage when we leave?

When They aka UK leave EU, nobody has proof of the future events.

 

However we already have some proof of what has happened so far and what is going to happen a lot more in the future. 

 

Case Panasonic moving it's UK headquarters to EU.

 

Edited September 8, 2018 by Guest

[melvinmelvin]

3 hours ago, Grouse said:

So who should I support? There is no party occupying the center ground. To support an unreconstructed Trot because "he's a nice old man" is pathetic.

 

don't fall into the same trap as Americans have fallen into

 

don't vote for front figures

 

vote for party policy

 

[rixalex]

And that omnishambles can be fairly laid at the Government's door, with little mitigation because it has by turns been dishonest, evasive, undemocratic, incompetent, and altogether quite pathetic.
 
 

Still don't know what any of that has to do with the post of mine you replied to. I'm not here to defend the government.

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[aright]

2 hours ago, bristolboy said:

You see Italy being forced out of the Eurozone? Have you learned nothing from the last crisis? Italy should be so lucky. The nations of the Eurozone won't want Italy out. And in or out, if Italy's banking system crashes that will be primarily a Eurozone problem to repair. And if the crash does happen, being out of the EU won't help the UK. It's entirely irrelevant. If British banks are exposed to Italy's default, it won't be because the UK is a member of the EU. It will be because they have made bad loans.. Keep in mind that in the last crash the UK was not required to pitch in to rescue Greece, or rather, rescue the bankers who foolishly lent to Greece. That was strictly a Eurozone banking problem.

When I say forced out of the eurozone I don't mean by the EU more by its electorate.

I think your question is best answered by reviewing Italy's debt clock which at lunch at the cricket today stood at an accelerating 2.5 trillion euros requiring an accelerating 2900 euros per second just to service the debt.

The reasons they have bad debt is irrelevant, it is what it is and European  banks  will catch a cold .

I agree the EU doesn't want, for selfish reasons, Italy to leave the Euro if they go it's the end of the euro.

Italy doesn't want to because if they reinstated the lira , because of their national debt no one would give them credit. 

The only country which has the readies to save the package is Germany and anecdotally (customers, suppliers and friends) they don't feel it is their responsibility to bail out Italy. IMO you can forget what the EC or German government  want their hand will be forced to do something different or nothing to appease the electorate.

I wont mention that under the Maastricht Treaty it is illegal for one EU member to bail out another.

 

 

 

[Grouse]

13 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

don't fall into the same trap as Americans have fallen into

 

don't vote for front figures

 

vote for party policy

 

That's a reasonable comment

 

Does Corbyn agree with Labour policy on Brexit?

 

Or is Labour policy on Brexit Corbyn's policy on Brexit?

 

What is Labour policy on Brexit?

 

The six tests or we remain?

 

Or the six tests or we leave with no deal?

[rixalex]

When They aka UK leave EU, nobody has proof of the future events.
 
However we already have some proof of what has happened so far and what is going to happen a lot more in the future. 
 
Case Panasonic moving it's UK headquarters to EU.
[/url]  

You start by saying that nobody has proof of future events and then go on to state as a matter of fact that in the future a lot more companies will follow Panasonic.

And regarding the Panasonic story, it made big headline news a couple of weeks back and from the headline one imagined a vast factory plant or two with factory workers, office staff, management team, truck drivers, tea ladies and all the rest, potentially with their jobs on the line, and all thanks to Brexit. Then you read down the article and near the bottom come to the line, "fewer than approximately ten people would be affected out of a staff of 30".

To repeat. Less than ten.

Yes quick people. For goodness sake. Reverse this mass exodos before it's too late.

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[melvinmelvin]

6 minutes ago, Grouse said:

That's a reasonable comment

 

Does Corbyn agree with Labour policy on Brexit?

 

Or is Labour policy on Brexit Corbyn's policy on Brexit?

 

What is Labour policy on Brexit?

 

The six tests or we remain?

 

Or the six tests or we leave with no deal?

grouse,

I'm the non-Brit

you tell me

 

[nauseus]

4 minutes ago, Grouse said:

That's a reasonable comment

 

Does Corbyn agree with Labour policy on Brexit?

 

Or is Labour policy on Brexit Corbyn's policy on Brexit?

 

What is Labour policy on Brexit?

 

The six tests or we remain?

 

Or the six tests or we leave with no deal?

Looks to me like Labour's policy is:

 

https://labour.org.uk/issues/labours-plan-brexit/

 

Cake with hand-picked cherry topping + + +

 

? ? ? ?