UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[Chomper Higgot]

1 hour ago, aright said:

 

I am an Engineer but obviously not as arrogant or egotistical as you! 

Well you the one and not the other.

[kwilco]

We've had "project fear" from the Times, Sunday time Guardian, Observer, the Sun, Express, and Daily Mail and now the Financial Times....

 

https://www.ft.com/content/f1435a8e-372b-11e7-bce4-9023f8c0fd2e

 

Where is "project whoopee"?

I haven't heard a peep from them....... but I stopped taking the Beano several years ago.

[kwilco]

Come on Quitlings, just one concrete benefit from Brexit....just one...you've had 2 years to think of one....... how about 350 million for the NHS???

[nauseus]

4 minutes ago, kwilco said:

We've had "project fear" from the Times, Sunday time Guardian, Observer, the Sun, Express, and Daily Mail and now the Financial Times....

 

https://www.ft.com/content/f1435a8e-372b-11e7-bce4-9023f8c0fd2e

 

Where is "project whoopee"?

I haven't heard a peep from them....... but I stopped taking the Beano several years ago.

May 2017 is now?

[Grouse]

4 hours ago, adammike said:

And theirs me thinking in the case of the comet it was metal fatigue.What are the statistics that the cause of the bridge to collapse were, 1/ designed by Italians 2/ built by Italians 3/ constructed with mafia supplied concrete.

What are the bookies saying about brexit? Somebody should post the odds every day of a hard v soft v no brexit they know their maths.

Cpk for production quality. Statistics are just not well enough understood for general discussion. Drop it.

[nauseus]

22 minutes ago, kwilco said:

Come on Quitlings, just one concrete benefit from Brexit....just one...you've had 2 years to think of one....... how about 350 million for the NHS???

OK  a bedtime story...this was posted on the Brexit megathread as a previous iterration but you must have missed it. I'm certainly not going to rewrite it but edit/post again for your enjoyment:

 

The main leave points (with none seriously challenged or disputed by the remain side) are:

 

Sovereignty - UK sovereignty has been steadily eroded since 1973. The EEC Common Market mutated, "ever closer", to becoming a federal state, which the people of the UK did surely did not approve in the referendum of 1975. The broad population wrongly assumed that the EEC was purely economic and trading arrangement. The majority of British people do not wish their country to become a cluster of regions within a European federal state. EU bureaucracy and power is centralizing and eroding decision making powers from both national and local governments. The introduction of qualified majority voting allows decisions to be made against the interest of a single member. Most Britons still value their sovereignty and have shown that they want to be British. 

 

Democracy - the British system of government and constitution could be improved but it is still far preferable to this EU structure, with a selected group of commissioners basically running the show. Several of these commissioners are just second-rate so-called politicians put into place by already established pals or by arrangement and/or agreement with other allies. The anti-democratic nature of the EU government and the significant rewards of being part of it encourage a dictatorial mind-set and large scale corruption - the 1999 commission fraud scandal is enough evidence of that! 

 

Law /Justice - UK law is secondary to EU law and the majority of (informed) British people showed that they don't want that. They also do not want to lose their freedoms and rights e.g. to be presumed innocent of any crime before being proved guilty and they rejected a regime of corpus juris.

 

The majority of British people showed that they do not want the imposition of endless regulations and laws that are not made in the UK but which override British Law. The EU can't even abide by its own rules. EU (Dublin) Regulation(s) specify that asylum applications must be processed at the point of entry into the EU. Greece and Italy have failed to fulfill these obligations and assistance from the EU is farcical, especially by Merkel who has done the opposite. Parts of the Lisbon Treaty have been ignored in order to keep Greece afloat.

 

Immigration - needs complete control now. Freedom of movement used to be for EC/EU workers only, now it’s the whole show. UK housing and all services cannot keep pace with the ridiculous rate of influx, both from the EU and elsewhere. Our green and pleasant land is disappearing fast enough as it is!

 

Economy and cost - at least 9 billion Euros net per year is paid into the EU coffers by the UK and even Maggie Thatcher's rebate is likely to disappear soon. If we stay in then it can only be a matter of time before the Euro is forced upon the UK in place of sterling. The Euro has already shown itself as being unfit for purpose for several of the countries with previously weaker national economies. The scale of money creation and bond buying by ECB is similar to that of the US after 2008. Many parts of the EU are still plagued by high debt and unemployment and the EU still has the worst economic performance in the developed world, despite attempts to slap some kind of tax on just about everything! Ultimately, if we stay in, the EU will no doubt request all of the assets of the B o E be transferred to the ECB - once the UK currency and assets are gone, then the UK economy is gone and there is no way back!

 

Efficiency - The EU is not run efficiently. In fact it is wasteful, as shown by the ridiculous migration of the European Parliament from Brussels to Strasbourg for just 4 days each month, mainly to keep French noses in the air! The Common Agricultural Policy chews up 40% of the budget, again mainly for the benefit of French farmers (subsidies). The CAP has led to higher prices for consumers although some reform has reduced some of the initial wastage. But the CAP has provided little benefit and the UK should have been much tougher with this from day one. Ditto, of course the Common Fishing Policy, which has been a disaster for British fishing since we joined the EEC in 1973. 

 

The Future - (imho)

Without the necessary shock (of Brexit) the EU will not reform. Possibly now it will, a bit. But unchecked it will continue down its path to becoming a federal super state. The EU up to now has stubbornly refused reform (you can ask Cameron about that). The people that control the EU are not able to be easily removed but at least the members of the British parliament are. Personally, after observing the Eurocrats in action, I do not see any way to be able to trust them or give them ward of my country, especially as it seems that the wasteful mismanagement of the EU will continue, or probably worsen.

 

The real question of the referendum was really "Do you want to be a Briton or a European"? I always preferred the first option. 

 

If they could just have stuck with a common market all would be good.  

 

 

Edited September 9, 2018 by nauseus
remain

[Guest]

8 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

'Lies, damn lies and statistics' has been a common expression/joke for a very long time.  It's probably time to add 'polls' to that list! ?

While it's true that statistics can be used as 'fools gold' for the people who don't understand the larger image, statistics also give a good understanding about masses when done and interpreted right. 

 

Apparently there are people among us, who are so anti education and anti science that they are willing to throw statistics to the pile of burning books.

 

I feel sorry for those souls, whose belief of their mission is so strong that no evidence can alter their views. 

[Chomper Higgot]

Oops!

 

Another survey and once more public opinion going in the same direction:

 

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/brexit-poll-shows-londoners-would-now-vote-21-to-remain-in-the-eu-a3930061.html

Edited September 9, 2018 by Chomper Higgot

[billd766]

5 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

I'm probably missing the point here - but I thought the bookies got it very wrong re. the brexit referendum result?

 

That was because they were relying heavily on statistics.

[aright]

26 minutes ago, billd766 said:

 

That was because they were relying heavily on statistics.

Yes! Torture numbers and they will confess to anything. 

[adammike]

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

Cpk for production quality. Statistics are just not well enough understood for general discussion. Drop it.

After one post I have to drop it? I don't have to take orders from anybody posting here(mods maybe) you guys with your university degrees and understanding of statistics can just dismiss us plebs as you please.A word to the wise that's how you got brexit.

[rixalex]

After one post I have to drop it? I don't have to take orders from anybody posting here(mods maybe) you guys with your university degrees and understanding of statistics can just dismiss us plebs as you please.A word to the wise that's how you got brexit.

Quite correct re the, "that's how you got Brexit" comment.

 

"The great unwashed" were suspicious that they were being ignored and talked down to. And everything that has occurred since the referendum has confirmed that those suspicions were spot on. Now those same "unwashed" people KNOW that they are being ignored and talked down to, not just suspect it, thanks to the sort of rhetoric we see from the EU, from certain MPs, from the media, from Blair, Geldoff, Major et al, and from remainers in general.

 

Farage and other Brexiteers really need not campaign too hard. The remain camp is doing it for them.

 

Sent from my SM-G610F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

 

 

 

[Grouse]

5 minutes ago, rixalex said:

Quite correct re the, "that's how you got Brexit" comment.

 

"The great unwashed" were suspicious that they were being ignored and talked down to. And everything that has occurred since the referendum has confirmed that those suspicions were spot on. Now those same "unwashed" people KNOW that they are being ignored and talked down to, not just suspect it, thanks to the sort of rhetoric we see from the EU, from certain MPs, from the media, from Blair, Geldoff, Major et al, and from remainers in general.

 

Farage and other Brexiteers really need not campaign too hard. The remain camp is doing it for them.

 

Sent from my SM-G610F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

 

 

 

No comment necessary 

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, rixalex said:

Quite correct re the, "that's how you got Brexit" comment.

 

"The great unwashed" were suspicious that they were being ignored and talked down to. And everything that has occurred since the referendum has confirmed that those suspicions were spot on. Now those same "unwashed" people KNOW that they are being ignored and talked down to, not just suspect it, thanks to the sort of rhetoric we see from the EU, from certain MPs, from the media, from Blair, Geldoff, Major et al, and from remainers in general.

 

Farage and other Brexiteers really need not campaign too hard. The remain camp is doing it for them.

Do I need to care how Farage and other little Russian dolls wish to collapse UK's wellbeing? No, I really don't. 

 

I however see it's a great tragedy that UK has chosen this path of self destruction. It's not good for UK nor for EU. It's good for Russian oligarchs , who see divided Europe easier to deal to deal with, than strong EU. 

 

This whole idea of creating division in Europe, is based on few Russian billionaires, who would benefit of it. It's rather sad that we have people so willingly doing their bidding for them. 

 

One for none, all for a billionaire. That's just fools game, which is not democracy but moneycracy. 

[adammike]

1 hour ago, rixalex said:

Quite correct re the, "that's how you got Brexit" comment.

 

"The great unwashed" were suspicious that they were being ignored and talked down to. And everything that has occurred since the referendum has confirmed that those suspicions were spot on. Now those same "unwashed" people KNOW that they are being ignored and talked down to, not just suspect it, thanks to the sort of rhetoric we see from the EU, from certain MPs, from the media, from Blair, Geldoff, Major et al, and from remainers in general.

 

Farage and other Brexiteers really need not campaign too hard. The remain camp is doing it for them.

 

Sent from my SM-G610F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

 

 

 

It's a bitch as I am a remainer,that's life I guess.

[Chomper Higgot]

9 hours ago, adammike said:

After one post I have to drop it? I don't have to take orders from anybody posting here(mods maybe) you guys with your university degrees and understanding of statistics can just dismiss us plebs as you please.A word to the wise that's how you got brexit.

Well we can dismiss ignorance parading as ‘common sense’.

 

Nobody’s got Brexit yet.

Edited September 10, 2018 by Chomper Higgot

[JAG]

11 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Oops!

 

Another survey and once more public opinion going in the same direction:

 

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/brexit-poll-shows-londoners-would-now-vote-21-to-remain-in-the-eu-a3930061.html

It is often said on Thai Visa that there is more to Thailand than Bangkok. Perhaps the same is true of the UK and London?

 

What is more, let's not forget who is the editor of The Evening Standard, a man whose political career was ended by the EU referendum result ("oops"), and a man whose last weeks' as a political figure were marked by enthusiasm for predicting a terrible fate for the country if the the British Electorate failed to support his wish for the result to be 'remain". Predictions made whilst in an office (Chancellor of the Exchequer) in which he could hardly be unaware of the impact of his claims when the result was announced.

 

I should imagine that his axe is pretty sharp by now...

 

 

Edited September 10, 2018 by JAG

[kwilco]

47 minutes ago, JAG said:

It is often said on Thai Visa that there is more to Thailand than Bangkok. Perhaps the same is true of the UK and London?

 

What is more, let's not forget who is the editor of The Evening Standard, a man whose political career was ended by the EU referendum result ("oops"), and a man whose last weeks' as a political figure were marked by enthusiasm for predicting a terrible fate for the country if the the British Electorate failed to support his wish for the result to be 'remain". Predictions made whilst in an office (Chancellor of the Exchequer) in which he could hardly be unaware of the impact of his claims when the result was announced.

 

I should imagine that his axe is pretty sharp by now...

 

 

A case of shooting the messenger and ignoring the message.

One of the many Quitling tenets.

[kwilco]

.and another Brexiteer joins "project fear" ...

Home secretary Sajid Javid refuses to rule out civil disorder in case of no-deal Brexit

says government is ‘preparing for all contingencies’

[sandyf]

15 hours ago, rixalex said:

Of course Brexit will bring some damage in some areas. Who is disputing that?


Sent from my SM-G610F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

Now that damage has been accepted as unavoidable, the question no one will address is at what cost does the damage come unacceptable?

 

Back where we started, you are obviously quite happy for essential services to take a hit over this fiasco.

[kwilco]

WHere's a great idea ... play Brexit bingo!

Go through the thread and see how man Quitling cliches you can tick off on the card below.

Once you have a full set, cry Bingo!

Your prize is the realisation that Brexit is not based on reason, only cliche and prejudice.

 

 

 

coipf5owaaanz8q (1).webp

Edited September 10, 2018 by kwilco

[sandyf]

And the damage is a lot more than financial.

 

With just 200 days to go until Britain leaves the EU, Mr Baker, a former chairman of the ERG, said Ms May would be undermined in negotiations if she pushes ahead with proposals she is unlikely to get through Parliament. 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/conservative-party-split-theresa-may-chequers-brexit-steve-baker-conference-a8530126.html

[sandyf]

And the damage will strike in all walks of life.

 

The government had previously attempted to reassure scientists by claiming they would still have access to EU funding under ‘third country’ rules, in the event of a no-deal Brexit.

 

But following the publication this week of their plans for a no-deal Brexit, the government has updated advice to scientists to concede funding from the EU would be lost. 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/brexit-no-deal-eu-horizon2020-dominic-raab-a8506146.html

[JAG]

1 hour ago, kwilco said:

A case of shooting the messenger and ignoring the message.

One of the many Quitling tenets.

Do you know, I take issue with being called a "quitling". I'll tell you why. "Quitling" is close, intentionally so, to "Quisling", who as all will know was a Norwegian Nazi traitor, who welcomed the German subjugation and occupation of his country, and paid the price (executed) for doing so. It is a term of political abuse which is deliberately intended to convey a meaning which is diametrically opposed to the views I hold, and the vast majority who share or hold variants of those views.

It is a telling reminder of the depths to which you have sunk in this debate that you think it is clever or appropriate, and can only respond with a  sneer. I can imagine the clever little smirk which crossed your face as you typed it. 

 

Now yes, that is a personal comment. Calling me a 'Quisling", even if you have changed one consonant, is also a very personal and offensive comment, so if you do it again I shall report you. Understood?

Edited September 10, 2018 by JAG

[billd766]

1 hour ago, JAG said:

Do you know, I take issue with being called a "quitling". I'll tell you why. "Quitling" is close, intentionally so, to "Quisling", who as all will know was a Norwegian Nazi traitor, who welcomed the German subjugation and occupation of his country, and paid the price (executed) for doing so. It is a term of political abuse which is deliberately intended to convey a meaning which is diametrically opposed to the views I hold, and the vast majority who share or hold variants of those views.

It is a telling reminder of the depths to which you have sunk in this debate that you think it is clever or appropriate, and can only respond with a  sneer. I can imagine the clever little smirk which crossed your face as you typed it. 

 

Now yes, that is a personal comment. Calling me a 'Quisling", even if you have changed one consonant, is also a very personal and offensive comment, so if you do it again I shall report you. Understood?

 

I put kwilco on my ignore list weeks ago and now the only time I see his post is if somebody responds to them.

 

Add him to your ignore list and the more people that do it will deprive him of a response.

[aright]

3 hours ago, sandyf said:

Now that damage has been accepted as unavoidable, the question no one will address is at what cost does the damage come unacceptable?

 

Back where we started, you are obviously quite happy for essential services to take a hit over this fiasco.

Looking at recent European  elections,  a question you might well ask fellow Remainers and the EU and the EC? 

[sandyf]

2 hours ago, aright said:

Looking at recent European  elections,  a question you might well ask fellow Remainers and the EU and the EC? 

Same old out of context response.

What has European elections got to do with the damage being inflicted on the UK by brexit?

 

Absolutely nothing, just using my post as an excuse to promote your own EU paranoia.

[sandyf]

Some people should be more concerned about what is taking place in their own political arena rather than what is going on elsewhere.

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-boris-johnson-suicide-vest-theresa-may-chequers-a8529436.html

[rixalex]

Now that damage has been accepted as unavoidable, the question no one will address is at what cost does the damage come unacceptable?
 
Back where we started, you are obviously quite happy for essential services to take a hit over this fiasco.

You're asking for something that can't be given. You want a figure to be put on what Brexit will cost and then you want it to be weighed up as to whether it's worth it. As stated numerous times, Brexit has never been done before. Nobody knows what the future holds for Britain out of the EU. Some people predict apocalypse, some Utopia, some something inbetween. How much will it cost? Nobody knows and anybody who tells you they do is lying.

And please don't put words in my mouth. I never said I was happy for essential services to be hit. I said that I didn't believe that without Brexit essential services would be doing fine.

Sent from my SM-G610F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[aright]

3 hours ago, sandyf said:

Same old out of context response.

What has European elections got to do with the damage being inflicted on the UK by brexit?

 

Absolutely nothing, just using my post as an excuse to promote your own EU paranoia.

Same old pedantic, we are outside the box, shuffle. 

Should you need reminding no damage has been inflicted on the UK; Brexit hasn't happened yet. European Elections have created damage in the EU however...…. although you don't seem to want to accept it or can't explain it or more likely don't believe it..

If I was a tightrope walker I would inspect the anchor points on both sides of the wire before crossing. That's not paranoia that's common sense. No further comment is needed.
 

 

 

Edited September 10, 2018 by aright