Nonsense English exam answers

[HHTel]

5 hours ago, Chrisdoc said:

No. I was commenting on my niece's teachers.. She went to a government school for 4 years and learnt nothing from Thais teaching English. Now she is at an international school and has a filipino English teacher. The year started in May and she has learnt nothing in 4 months. Which is the worst teacher?The Thais who taught her nothing in 4 years or the filipino who taught her nothing in 4 months? It would be funny if it wasn't a child's education we are talking about. She is proficient at other subjects.

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No.  You said "I guess it was a Filipina" or words to that effect.  You did then comment on your niece's teacher.  In general the Filipinas have quite a good reputation here if you can keep them.  Many of them return to the Philippines because of the way they are treated here.  My daughter went to a school with a Filipina and apart from UK English teachers, she was pretty good.  At least I could have a complex conversation with her in exactly the same way as I would talk to a fellow countryman.  Of course there are good and bad sol we'll leave it at that.

[Scott]

11 hours ago, Chrisdoc said:

No. I was commenting on my niece's teachers.. She went to a government school for 4 years and learnt nothing from Thais teaching English. Now she is at an international school and has a filipino English teacher. The year started in May and she has learnt nothing in 4 months. Which is the worst teacher?The Thais who taught her nothing in 4 years or the filipino who taught her nothing in 4 months? It would be funny if it wasn't a child's education we are talking about. She is proficient at other subjects.

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A lot of the Thai English teachers conduct the classes primarily in Thai and there is little chance for actually speaking English.   I have certainly interviewed students for admission to a bilingual program who could barely speak at all.   They did understand some spoken English, but very little.   I was always amazed that some of those same students could read a paragraph and answer questions.

 

It takes practice to be able to actually speak and use the language and if the classes are very large, the teacher is not the operative factor in learning.  

 

But back on the topic, I have seen some exams that are off the charts with incorrect English and couldn't really be changed because they had been taught incorrect grammar.  

[My Thai Life]

21 hours ago, Chrisdoc said:

I am saying that someone who is a native English speaker would be a better teacher than a non native English speaker.

I am sorry to hear about your niece.

 

Being able to speak a language does not mean you can teach it. Also, most English teachers worldwide are "non-NES". Also many Philippinos are NES as much as many Brits/US/Oz/etc citizens.

 

[My Thai Life]

The worst English test paper I have ever seen here was for police exams. There were mistakes in the questions, mistakes in the multiple choice answers, and incorrect mapping between the questions and the "correct" multiple choice answer.

 

My heart really went out to the police officers I was coaching. They were really motivated, but no-one would have been able to get the answers "correct" other than through random guessing, for a large number of the test questions.

 

 

[HHTel]

5 hours ago, Scott said:

A lot of the Thai English teachers conduct the classes primarily in Thai and there is little chance for actually speaking English.  

Very good point.  At least Filipino teachers have to conduct themselves in English which must be beneficial to students.

[Chrisdoc]

No.  You said "I guess it was a Filipina" or words to that effect.  You did then comment on your niece's teacher.  In general the Filipinas have quite a good reputation here if you can keep them.  Many of them return to the Philippines because of the way they are treated here.  My daughter went to a school with a Filipina and apart from UK English teachers, she was pretty good.  At least I could have a complex conversation with her in exactly the same way as I would talk to a fellow countryman.  Of course there are good and bad sol we'll leave it at that.

The reason I commented was my frustration at my niece's teacher. I am happy to argue it round and round like you seem to want to but my experience is with someone who seems to be a totally incompetent teacher and is from the Phillipines. Can't work out what you mean about your daughter going to school with a filipina and the rest of your post?

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[duanebigsby]

31 minutes ago, Chrisdoc said:

The reason I commented was my frustration at my niece's teacher. I am happy to argue it round and round like you seem to want to but my experience is with someone who seems to be a totally incompetent teacher and is from the Phillipines. Can't work out what you mean about your daughter going to school with a filipina and the rest of your post?

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I agree with HHtel here. 

You said you guessed the  teacher was Filipino. Now you are saying definitely from the Philippines?

Incompetence is nationality independent. I've worked with many fine teachers from the Philippines.

[duanebigsby]

On 8/21/2018 at 7:26 AM, My Thai Life said:

I am sorry to hear about your niece.

 

Being able to speak a language does not mean you can teach it. Also, most English teachers worldwide are "non-NES". Also many Philippinos are NES as much as many Brits/US/Oz/etc citizens.

 

Maybe most aren't NES,  but Native speakers worldwide are far more desirable to schools for a reason.

The online tutoring to China doesn't even want Brits or Aussies because of the accents.

Filipinos are by definition NOT Native English Speakers.

[My Thai Life]

11 hours ago, duanebigsby said:

Maybe most aren't NES,  but Native speakers worldwide are far more desirable to schools for a reason.

The online tutoring to China doesn't even want Brits or Aussies because of the accents.

Filipinos are by definition NOT Native English Speakers.

Point 1 is such a big generalisation it doesn't move your argument forward. NES speakers are definitely not favoured at our school. We hire on the basis of ability, and we do require an applicant to be able to speak Thai. Many of the applicants I've had from "NES" countries are unemployable.

 

Point 2 is simply not true. There may be some US online "schools" that only accept US or North American citizens, and this may be for operational reasons as much as anything else. But the majority of online "schools" accept a wide range of applicants.

 

Point 3 depends on whose definition of "NES". I find a lot of the "discussion" about NES to be, frankly, racist. Anyone working in the TEFL sector who has kept abreast of developments in the theory and practice of TEFL over the last 20 years would know that the debate around "NES" moved on a long time ago. There are many Filipino NES speakers, the fact that you don't recognise that doesn't change anything.

 

Edited August 24, 2018 by My Thai Life

[Chrisdoc]

I agree with HHtel here. 
You said you guessed the  teacher was Filipino. Now you are saying definitely from the Philippines?
Incompetence is nationality independent. I've worked with many fine teachers from the Philippines.

You have obviously not read my original post before commenting. I guessed the teacher who corrected the exam is from the Phillipines. I was wrong. The teacher was Thai. Seperately I mentioned my niece's teacher is definitely from the Phillipines.

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[duanebigsby]

5 hours ago, Chrisdoc said:

You have obviously not read my original post before commenting. I guessed the teacher who corrected the exam is from the Phillipines. I was wrong. The teacher was Thai. Seperately I mentioned my niece's teacher is definitely from the Phillipines.

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Read the post but missed the point, sorry.

My point about most Filipino teachers to be quite good I still feel.

[duanebigsby]

7 hours ago, My Thai Life said:

Point 1 is such a big generalisation it doesn't move your argument forward. NES speakers are definitely not favoured at our school. We hire on the basis of ability, and we do require an applicant to be able to speak Thai. Many of the applicants I've had from "NES" countries are unemployable.

 

Point 2 is simply not true. There may be some US online "schools" that only accept US or North American citizens, and this may be for operational reasons as much as anything else. But the majority of online "schools" accept a wide range of applicants.

 

Point 3 depends on whose definition of "NES". I find a lot of the "discussion" about NES to be, frankly, racist. Anyone working in the TEFL sector who has kept abreast of developments in the theory and practice of TEFL over the last 20 years would know that the debate around "NES" moved on a long time ago. There are many Filipino NES speakers, the fact that you don't recognise that doesn't change anything.

 

I'm going to disagree on some points.

 

Point 1.

Yes it was a broad generalization. But I'll stick by my assertion that the majority of schools  prefer NES teachers,  especially in Asia and the Middle East.

Point 2.

You're right on this one. I should have said "some" Chinese language online agencies prefer  North American teachers. I was thinking of VipKids one of the most active agencies from  China.

Point 3.

I agree depends on the definition. But the debate is still around. My definition of NES is someone who learned English at a very young age and  prefers to communicate in English. The Filipino teachers I know revert to Tagalog or their dialect whenever the conversation  doesn't require English. The majority of people in the Philippines aren't speaking English at home. I consider that non-NES. 

Edited August 24, 2018 by duanebigsby

[My Thai Life]

Well I'm glad to see we agree on quite a lot Duane. My definition of NES for what it's worth is someone whose mother tongue is English. Even this defintion isn't perfect as it doesn't include true bilinguals.

 

Given that the USA doesn't have an official language, and that an increasing number of US citizens don't speak English as a 1st language, and that Spanish is forecast by some people to overtake English as the 1st language sometime  in the next few decades, I think a general revision of what NES means is going to be necessary. Moreover the Irish and South Africans are frequently not on the "NES" list, which is a bit weird.

 

cheers, have a good day.

Edited August 24, 2018 by My Thai Life

[ozmeldo]

On 8/19/2018 at 6:05 PM, DavisH said:

No, the third 5-year licence....most of us have qualifications; one teacher passed the 4 Thai exams. Our newest teacher will have been in the school two years, but he will retire at the end of this academic year. A few have been here 5 years, while the rest of us are between 10 and 17 years (mix of native and non-native speakers). It's just attrition as to why we are the ones left who have licences. I'm almost certain if I quit I will be replaced by a non-native speaker, as there are very few qualified and experienced native speakers left here....or they could be here but the starting salaries are not enough to attract them.  

I'd be very interested to know where you work. That the school can keep so many fully licensed farang in place. I only know a one school in Bangkok that could boast that. The farang teaching levels are high, so is the pay and the drama as well. You must be making well over 55 all of you to stick around. But that one school would never hire Filipinos.

 

In the end it sounds like just another 38k sarasass job.

[ozmeldo]

5 hours ago, My Thai Life said:

Well I'm glad to see we agree on quite a lot Duane. My definition of NES for what it's worth is someone whose mother tongue is English. Even this defintion isn't perfect as it doesn't include true bilinguals.

 

Given that the USA doesn't have an official language, and that an increasing number of US citizens don't speak English as a 1st language, and that Spanish is forecast by some people to overtake English as the 1st language sometime  in the next few decades, I think a general revision of what NES means is going to be necessary. Moreover the Irish and South Africans are frequently not on the "NES" list, which is a bit weird.

 

cheers, have a good day.

Irish are considered NES, rightly so as S. Africans and Filipinos and Indians are not, rightly so.

 

A good NES teacher excells in ways that the others can't touch. Literature, vocabulary, composition, exam writing, teaching pronunciation.

 

For many jobs N. Europeans are fine. Scandinavians, Germans depending on accent. I'd take them all over the others.

 

There's a reason Filipinos are paid local wages, that's what they accept and that's what they are worth. And yes, some schools overpay white teachers but that's what it is. Overpaying crappy white teachers, not underpaying Filipinos.

[duanebigsby]

8 minutes ago, ozmeldo said:

 

 

There's a reason Filipinos are paid local wages, that's what they accept and that's what they are worth. And yes, some schools overpay white teachers but that's what it is. Overpaying crappy white teachers, not underpaying Filipinos.

I disagree that's what Filipinos are worth.

They are often drastically underpaid but take the best they are offered. A Filipino with a proper Education degree and a slight accent versus a NES who has never taught nor been trained.

The Filipinos are underpaid. 

[SheungWan]

(X) Its all wrong.

(O) The teacher is write.

[ozmeldo]

12 minutes ago, duanebigsby said:

I disagree that's what Filipinos are worth.

They are often drastically underpaid but take the best they are offered. A Filipino with a proper Education degree and a slight accent versus a NES who has never taught nor been trained.

The Filipinos are underpaid. 

That is some dreamy scanario. I've never met a Filipino with a slight accent. They are all from the Beesayas. Filipino universities are horrible. Many have bogus paper.

 

But most importantly, a commodity of which we all are, our labor is worth what someone will pay for it and we are willing to accept. They routinely accept poor wages then whinge about it. The spiteful backstabbing for which I have been victim is legend.

 

At the end of the year when you negotiate a contract a teacher has the opportunity to leave for more money or stay and be bitter. I always leave, the Filipinos always stay.

 

I know for a fact that Filipinos with game and some that are just stupid lucky are making 35-42.5k. These are real teachers.

 

In this racket you need to be very good or very, very lucky to make over 45k. It doesn't come by showing up late and leaving early or kids not even knowing your name at the end of term 1.

Edited August 24, 2018 by ozmeldo

[duanebigsby]

3 minutes ago, ozmeldo said:

That is some dreamy scanario. I've never met a Filipino with a slight accent. They are all from the Beesayas. Filipino universities are horrible. Many have bogus paper.

 

But most importantly, a commodity of which we all are, our labor is worth what someone will pay for it and we are willing to accept. They routinely accept poor wages then whinge about it. The spiteful backstabbing for which I have been victim is legend.

 

At the end of the year when you negotiate a contract a teacher has the opportunity to leave for more money or stay and be bitter. I always leave, the Filipinos always stay.

 

I know for a fact that Filipinos with game and some that are just stupid lucky are making 35-42.5k.

Not my experience at all but I'm not in Bangkok but Northern Thailand. Where I live very few NES are making more than 30k.

 

[ozmeldo]

2 minutes ago, duanebigsby said:

Not my experience at all but I'm not in Bangkok but Northern Thailand. Where I live very few NES are making more than 30k.

 

Come to Bangkok, double your salary ?

[duanebigsby]

Just now, ozmeldo said:

Come to Bangkok, double your salary ?

Triple my expenses, no thanks.

[ozmeldo]

6 minutes ago, duanebigsby said:

Triple my expenses, no thanks.

I bank 30-35k a month M-F. Excluding large expenses.

 

It'sreally a myth that Bangkok is hugely more expensive. What

does your scooter or car and insurance cost? I have a small, tidy flat 5200b pm. Less than 10% of my gross pay.

[Slip]

56 minutes ago, ozmeldo said:

I'd be very interested to know where you work. That the school can keep so many fully licensed farang in place. I only know a one school in Bangkok that could boast that. The farang teaching levels are high, so is the pay and the drama as well. You must be making well over 55 all of you to stick around. But that one school would never hire Filipinos.

 

In the end it sounds like just another 38k sarasass job.

Back in the day some schools were giving 10% annual increases.  I know a number of people on more than 55k in my province.

[Chrisdoc]

Read the post but missed the point, sorry.
My point about most Filipino teachers to be quite good I still feel.

Are you and H-tel really teachers? H-tel wrote "My daughter went to a school with a Filipina and apart from UK English teachers, she was pretty good.  At least I could have a complex conversation with her in exactly the same way as I would talk to a fellow countryman.". Who is he talking about? Is the daughter pretty good or the filipina? Who can he have a conversation with? The daughter or the filipina? Is the filipina a teacher or a student?" Why "apart from UK English teachers" You agreed with him in your post so you must understand what he is saying? In your post when you said " you missed the point" do you mean you understand what I am saying now or do you think I have no point. Do you write sentences with the verb between the subject and the object or verb at the end. Is your point good or the teacher good in the sentence "My point about most Filipino teachers to be quite good I still feel". I don't want to be rude but if the filipino teachers express themselves like you two do it is hard to accept your judgements.

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[duanebigsby]

14 minutes ago, Chrisdoc said:

Are you and H-tel really teachers? H-tel wrote "My daughter went to a school with a Filipina and apart from UK English teachers, she was pretty good.  At least I could have a complex conversation with her in exactly the same way as I would talk to a fellow countryman.". Who is he talking about? Is the daughter pretty good or the filipina? Who can he have a conversation with? The daughter or the filipina? Is the filipina a teacher or a student?" Why "apart from UK English teachers" You agreed with him in your post so you must understand what he is saying? In your post when you said " you missed the point" do you mean you understand what I am saying now or do you think I have no point. Do you write sentences with the verb between the subject and the object or verb at the end. Is your point good or the teacher good in the sentence "My point about most Filipino teachers to be quite good I still feel". I don't want to be rude but if the filipino teachers express themselves like you two do it is hard to accept your judgements.

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We're on an informal internet forum. No need to be grammar Nazis.

I  understood that HHTel felt his daughter's Filipino teacher was quite decent.

When I posted "missed the point" I left the pronoun "I" out of it as it wasn't necessary. The Subject IS before the verb and the object is last.

OK "I" missed your point. "I" am sorry. Says exactly what it is meant to say. People don't type formal English on forums. You're being a pedantic <deleted> and you are being rude. Anyone who says, "I don't want to be rude "but".... is being exactly that.

Edited August 24, 2018 by duanebigsby

[HHTel]

3 hours ago, Chrisdoc said:

Are you and H-tel really teachers? H-tel wrote "My daughter went to a school with a Filipina and apart from UK English teachers, she was pretty good.  At least I could have a complex conversation with her in exactly the same way as I would talk to a fellow countryman.". Who is he talking about? Is the daughter pretty good or the filipina? Who can he have a conversation with? The daughter or the filipina? Is the filipina a teacher or a student?" Why "apart from UK English teachers" You agreed with him in your post so you must understand what he is saying? In your post when you said " you missed the point" do you mean you understand what I am saying now or do you think I have no point. Do you write sentences with the verb between the subject and the object or verb at the end. Is your point good or the teacher good in the sentence "My point about most Filipino teachers to be quite good I still feel". I don't want to be rude but if the filipino teachers express themselves like you two do it is hard to accept your judgements.

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I have been teaching/lecturing in schools for more that 30 years, both in the UK and here.  There is a real difference between conversational English and written English.  Members of forums such as this write in 'conversational English', i.e, 'spoken English' as opposed to 'written English' even though posts are written in fact. Maybe you should study 'context' and understand that it can run through a two way conversation without the need for repeating detail at every instance.

[My Thai Life]

@ozmeldo

 

Point 1. Irish and South Africans are frequently left off the "NES" list, regardless of your assertion. The last time I checked, a few years ago, the Irish were not on the MoE's list of "NES" countries. Many Indians and Pakistanis speak excellent RP British English, though these types don't usually go into teaching, as it's low paid in most countries, including the UK. The latter point is also true of Filipinos.

 

Point 2. A good teacher excels. Many NES in Thailand are not good teachers, they are just trapped without sufficient funds here, and are doing whatever they can to make ends meet, not always legally.

 

Point 3. Just racist.

 

Point 4. Filipinos are paid local wages because they are ASEAN. Caucasian teachers in government schools are paid at a higher rate than the Thai teacher scale, though most of the NES in government schools aren't qualified teachers, and most are ineffective because of their inbility to speak Thai, and their school's lack of English language support. 

 

Qualified "NES" teachers will not usually be found in Thai government schools. Most would head for the good quality international schools here, or a different country completely. They rarely contribute to this forum it would seem.

 

If you need any evidence of the low quality of some of  the "NES" teachers in Thailand, just look at the forums related to teaching.

 

Most NES in government schools here are just focused on conversation skills, as another poster has pointed out. Well just try to have a conversation in English with a Thai teenager, and see how that program has failed. Time to change the program and drop caucasians from government schools in my opinion (by the way, I'm caucasian).

 

cheers, have a good day.

 

[SheungWan]

Focus on external assessment. Anything internally assessed appears to be fatally corrupted in the local system.

[Chrisdoc]

We're on an informal internet forum. No need to be grammar Nazis.
I  understood that HHTel felt his daughter's Filipino teacher was quite decent.
When I posted "missed the point" I left the pronoun "I" out of it as it wasn't necessary. The Subject IS before the verb and the object is last.
OK "I" missed your point. "I" am sorry. Says exactly what it is meant to say. People don't type formal English on forums. You're being a pedantic and you are being rude. Anyone who says, "I don't want to be rude "but".... is being exactly that.

I don't think it is being a grammar nazi considering we are discussing English grammar and the merits of different English teachers. If we were talking about football I could understand, but a person who is a teaching professional using the sentence ""My point about most Filipino teachers to be quite good I still feel" is hard to dismiss in a discussion of a serious subject such as a child's education. Not only is it important for her but is also very expensive for us to send her to an international school.

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[SheungWan]

5 minutes ago, Chrisdoc said:

.....is also very expensive for us to send her to an international school.
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Possibly focus then on some additional private tutoring preparing the child for IELTS. Easier I would think in Bangkok or Chiang Mai, where one can try to tap suitable tutors. Otherwise, its not going to get much better navigating the local system.