Alcoholic friend in trouble

[marcusarelus]

13 hours ago, thailand49 said:

I think what is the utmost importance is that one gets the needed help they need.

I did some research started with your link on medical school and went through it twice from 1-150 and couldn't find any Thailand medical school listed. In doing so I did notice and I'm sure you did too the number of U.S. school listed which nearly dominate the top 150 listed. With the size of the U.S. it is understandable to the volume of medical students produced by these school. In S.F. where I was born and raised everywhere you go you could find large to small medical building with any type of specialty you might need. 

One of the most notable things between the U.S and Thailand you can become a Doctor coming from the poorest of a family which I term rags to richest, like in politics a person like Obama can be a President. I have a number of Doctors in my family here in Thailand majority of the Doctors I've met or read about their family were already will off thus their ability to attend the better University.

When it comes to medical errors, by the numbers you take into the account the accessibility of medical help for the size of a country like the U.S. and volume of the patient the higher number is misleading in my book. I believe the way things work here in Thailand majority of the population which is poor living outside of Bangkok can't even get available treatment in a government hospital thus the reason the age of death is so young compare to other Western countries. Based on what I'm reading it stands correct that the U.S. and the West have the best Universities for medicine and research.

I wrote, " You will find a number of Thai med schools ranked higher than USA med schools.  If you want to substitute anecdotal experiences rather than factual information from reputable reporting sources of course you will be correct."  That is an accurate statement.  Your search was in error and only confined to the top 150 rankings.   

 

#203 Tie

Mahidol University

Thailand Salaya, Nakhon Pathom

#509 (tied) – Best Global Universities

48.2

Subject Score

#339 Tie

Chulalongkorn University

Thailand Bangkok

#539 (tied) – Best Global Universities

43.9

Subject Score

#417

Chiang Mai University

Thailand Chiang Mai

#838 (tied) – Best Global Universities

39.9

Subject Score

#506

Prince Songkla University

Thailand Songkhla

#961 (tied) – Best Global Universities

38.5

Subject Score

#534 Tie

Khon Kaen University

Thailand Khon Kaen

#971 (tied) – Best Global Universities

 

The third-leading cause of death in US most doctors don't want you to know about,  https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/22/medical-errors-third-leading-cause-of-death-in-america.html

 

Third leading cause of death in the US is error by medical professionals.  Schools may be great but if they are why is the third leading cause of death in the USA medical professional error?  Life expectancy in Thailand is 74 and in USA 78.  If the medical care is so much better in the USA why only a 4 year difference in life expectancy? 

 

Perhaps you should take some time to learn about the medical education system in Thailand and government hospitals and the referral system.  It's obvious you are not well informed. 

 

Thailand many doctors work at a hospital and also have a private practice.  You can get an appointment any time including weekends and nights.  My doctor makes house calls in Thailand and sees my wife at night after she gets off work.  You think that happens in the US?  Last time I heard of a doctor making a house call in the usa was 1962.  In Thailand you can get everything done in one place.  Blood tests, pharmacy and a complete line of specialists and you can get it done on a Sunday.  It is a good system and makes sense.  I can stay for a week in intensive care in Thailand for what it costs me to stay 10 minutes in an American ICU.  

 

Try reading http://www.ircme.m.u-tokyo.ac.jp/pdf/20th_ikyo_seminar.pdf

And maybe you can figure out why the Thai medical education system is better than the USA. 

 

Everyone has health care in Thailand and nobody is starving in Thailand.  Can the same be said of the USA?  Thai life expectancy 74 years.  USA 78 years. 

 

My wife has 3 medical payment plans.  1.  Insurance that I pay for and 2.  Social Security through work and her 3. Thai insurance that follows her residence location.  

 

 

 

 

[marcusarelus]

5 hours ago, Curt1591 said:

"Drinking everyday for 4 years may or may not qualify you to be a chronic alcoholic. That is not the test in AA literature. It is lack of control - an inability to stop on ones own will power and inability to moderate after the first couple of drinks."

Being in a constant state, continually for 4 years, may not constitute chronic to you and/or AA. But, for 99.9% of the human population, it's pretty much textbook.

Not being able to predict the outcome of any drinking encounter, once initiated, is also my definition of an alcoholic. 

My sister is alcoholic, although she only drank maybe once or twice a year. But, without exception, every time she drank, it was a disaster. She would wake up in another city. The house furnishings would wind up on the front lawn. She couldn't find her car. She'd be in jail. Every time. It took me many years to convince her to not take that first drink. 

I didn't completely quit by myself. As I said, many of the things I learned at AA were taken to heart. And, my mother knew, through her own experience, exactly what I was going through and supported me.

I have nothing bad to say about practicing the principles of AA. I just don't care for the religion of AA. It's not a bad thing. I'm just not a "fellowship" kind of person. One of the reasons I drank is that I find most people annoying. After a few drinks, I could join right in!

I'm an atheist (and a hard core atheists).   AA does not have a religion.  I asked when I started AA how long I would have to go to meetings.  One of the old fellows said until you don't want to stop. 

 

Dogs live in packs.  People are social beings.  Hermits are not well adjusted people.  Solitary confinement is a punishment and drives people crazy.   Fellowship is a normal human condition.  You would have got it but you didn't go long enough.  Everybody gets it if allowed to go to enough meetings. 

 

The god thing and fellowship thing is booze talking and I said all of those things while I was trying to convince myself that I was different, unique and not like all the other guys at AA. 

 

When I first went to the Pattaya meeting 10 years ago there was a NY times best selling author and a Hollywood movie writer and an famous Irish boxer in attendance.  Great stories. I was overjoyed to be allowed in the same room with these guys and able listen to them.  These kind of folk are the kind of people one pays to hear talk and someone has the temerity to suggest not listening to them because they want to enter into a fellowship with me?  What a joke.  You don't have to believe in god to want to talk the Pope.  The Pope needs a good talking to about the abuse he is letting happen.  If he was in my fellowship I'd tell him what for.  AA was there for me when I needed them and I will always provide the fellowship to any other alcoholic who needs it to pay my debt. 

Edited August 23, 2018 by marcusarelus

[thailand49]

6 hours ago, marcusarelus said:

I wrote, " You will find a number of Thai med schools ranked higher than USA med schools.  If you want to substitute anecdotal experiences rather than factual information from reputable reporting sources of course you will be correct."  That is an accurate statement.  Your search was in error and only confined to the top 150 rankings.   

 

#203 Tie

Mahidol University

Thailand Salaya, Nakhon Pathom

#509 (tied) – Best Global Universities

48.2

Subject Score

#339 Tie

Chulalongkorn University

Thailand Bangkok

#539 (tied) – Best Global Universities

43.9

Subject Score

#417

Chiang Mai University

Thailand Chiang Mai

#838 (tied) – Best Global Universities

39.9

Subject Score

#506

Prince Songkla University

Thailand Songkhla

#961 (tied) – Best Global Universities

38.5

Subject Score

#534 Tie

Khon Kaen University

Thailand Khon Kaen

#971 (tied) – Best Global Universities

 

The third-leading cause of death in US most doctors don't want you to know about,  https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/22/medical-errors-third-leading-cause-of-death-in-america.html

 

Third leading cause of death in the US is error by medical professionals.  Schools may be great but if they are why is the third leading cause of death in the USA medical professional error?  Life expectancy in Thailand is 74 and in USA 78.  If the medical care is so much better in the USA why only a 4 year difference in life expectancy? 

 

Perhaps you should take some time to learn about the medical education system in Thailand and government hospitals and the referral system.  It's obvious you are not well informed. 

 

Thailand many doctors work at a hospital and also have a private practice.  You can get an appointment any time including weekends and nights.  My doctor makes house calls in Thailand and sees my wife at night after she gets off work.  You think that happens in the US?  Last time I heard of a doctor making a house call in the usa was 1962.  In Thailand you can get everything done in one place.  Blood tests, pharmacy and a complete line of specialists and you can get it done on a Sunday.  It is a good system and makes sense.  I can stay for a week in intensive care in Thailand for what it costs me to stay 10 minutes in an American ICU.  

 

Try reading http://www.ircme.m.u-tokyo.ac.jp/pdf/20th_ikyo_seminar.pdf

And maybe you can figure out why the Thai medical education system is better than the USA. 

 

Everyone has health care in Thailand and nobody is starving in Thailand.  Can the same be said of the USA?  Thai life expectancy 74 years.  USA 78 years. 

 

My wife has 3 medical payment plans.  1.  Insurance that I pay for and 2.  Social Security through work and her 3. Thai insurance that follows her residence location.  

 

 

 

 

We can go on and on, we will just have to agree to disagree!  You read the stats one way and I read them another way, we both experience the medical system and I don't doubt any of your experience but from what I've experience and I'm sure I will see more hopefully it changes my opinion but right now Thailand medical system education, research, there just isn't any comparison. 

In the context of course of death, Thailand has nothing in terms of what an emergency unit goes through along with the type of injuries I've seen it first hand at one of the best in San Francisco emergency units, gun shot, knife wounds, hands feet cut off, the head injuries, you name it they get it! 

You say I should learn what I've learned isn't through books or researching stats but actually, first hand living with Thais in villages up north for 5 years and what I read as you noted isn't what I've experience first hand unlike you in a  City like Pattaya or Bangkok. I wonder how Thailand doctors can be trained when the majority of the equipment, procedures are developed in the West so when I hear a hospital prop themselves up or Doctors are trained in the West but can't even speak English I really have to wonder.  I also wonder how you can prop a Thai Hospital rank #500 and say it is better than one rank within the first #150, you can't just use what you like in how they rank to justify that Thailand medical system is better especially when it comes to the teaching! Any student wanting to be a Doctor who can afford and travel anywhere in the world would start generally to apply at the top and not in the back #500.

Everything you stated has to do with one being to afford the medical facility and treatment and it seems what you state comes from being able to afford it. Personally, I think you have no idea what goes on outside of Pattaya and Bangkok, I wonder if you even ever been in Banglamung or the Provincial Chon Buri emergency?  Outside up north people are living on dirt floors tin can roof, families barely able to send more than 1 child to school because they can't even afford the books or uniforms.

Even on the Darkside here in Pattaya I see kids playing around my wife store and restaurant their dinner is a 5 baht bag of chips or candy bar.  It is sad I've figured it out first hand and not by reading stats.

I read between your writing and I sense your resentment as to what the U.S. medical system has turned into and I feel the same but when it comes to the teaching and training Thailand doesn't hold a candle and never will in my life time.

As noted, there is a person handle Sheryl, who is in the medical professional that normally gives advice and opinions here but I believe last saw she is back in the States, it would be interesting to hear her opinion on our discussion.

 

Edited August 23, 2018 by thailand49

[Curt1591]

"I'm an atheist (and a hard core atheists).   AA does not have a religion."

You may have mentally edited it to fit your beliefs, but of AA's 12 steps, five address "God" directly. The 12 steps are the cornerstone of AA. 

Although I am anti-religion, I am not an atheist. The "God" thing had nothing to do with my departure.

I wasn't an "outcast" from the group. I didn't attend in protest. I was accepted, attended both open and closed meetings, and had great discussions with other members. But, after my year, AA wasn't for me. God or not, AA is a religion!

I said my goodbyes and everyone wished me good luck. It was an amiable parting. 

I came away with the tenets of the 12 steps, but left the religion at the meetings ...

---------------

"Hermits are not well adjusted people."

I do enjoy solitude. Some of my greatest moments of clarity have come during my extended stays in the desert, just me, the land, and the emptiness (think true Buddhism). 

However, don't draw assumptions. I am far from a hermit. I do have some great friends, mostly the same ones I have had for over 50 years. Living in Thailand, I don't see the all that often. But, I do have a family, am a productive member of my moo baan, and socialize to some extent. I am far from isolated.

But, I still find most groups of people annoying. 
 

[marcusarelus]

50 minutes ago, Curt1591 said:

"I'm an atheist (and a hard core atheists).   AA does not have a religion."

You may have mentally edited it to fit your beliefs, but of AA's 12 steps, five address "God" directly. The 12 steps are the cornerstone of AA. 

Although I am anti-religion, I am not an atheist. The "God" thing had nothing to do with my departure.

I wasn't an "outcast" from the group. I didn't attend in protest. I was accepted, attended both open and closed meetings, and had great discussions with other members. But, after my year, AA wasn't for me. God or not, AA is a religion!

I said my goodbyes and everyone wished me good luck. It was an amiable parting. 

I came away with the tenets of the 12 steps, but left the religion at the meetings ...

---------------

"Hermits are not well adjusted people."

I do enjoy solitude. Some of my greatest moments of clarity have come during my extended stays in the desert, just me, the land, and the emptiness (think true Buddhism). 

However, don't draw assumptions. I am far from a hermit. I do have some great friends, mostly the same ones I have had for over 50 years. Living in Thailand, I don't see the all that often. But, I do have a family, am a productive member of my moo baan, and socialize to some extent. I am far from isolated.

But, I still find most groups of people annoying.

I can only share my experiences when 30 years ago I started going to AA meetings.  I was told the god avoidance of AA was a drunks crutch and an example of booze talking.  I was told my higher power could be a little red truck if it made me feel better.  Among Buddhists that I know they replace god with good. 

 

I don't want to take your inventory as it's none of my business but for others who have an interest in not drinking talk to some fellows who have significant time in the program and they will tell you AA is not a religion and the fellowship is how AA survives.  If you got helped by AA it's only fair you return the favor and help someone else.

 

" In the first decades of AA, Bill Wilson was asked by some Buddhist alcoholics, atheists by Abrahamic standards, whether they could revise the steps, replacing “God” with “Good.” In 1957 Wilson wrote “To some of us, the idea of substituting ‘good’ for ‘God’ in the Twelve Steps will seem like a watering down of A.A.’s message. But here we must remember that A.A.’s Steps are suggestions only. A belief in them, as they stand, is not at all a requirement for membership among us. This liberty has made A.A. available to thousands who never would have tried at all had we insisted on the Twelve Steps just as written."  

 

I guess you and Bill W don't agree.  So who to believe? 

[Curt1591]

10 hours ago, marcusarelus said:

I can only share my experiences when 30 years ago I started going to AA meetings.  I was told the god avoidance of AA was a drunks crutch and an example of booze talking.  I was told my higher power could be a little red truck if it made me feel better.  Among Buddhists that I know they replace god with good. 

 

I don't want to take your inventory as it's none of my business but for others who have an interest in not drinking talk to some fellows who have significant time in the program and they will tell you AA is not a religion and the fellowship is how AA survives.  If you got helped by AA it's only fair you return the favor and help someone else.

 

" In the first decades of AA, Bill Wilson was asked by some Buddhist alcoholics, atheists by Abrahamic standards, whether they could revise the steps, replacing “God” with “Good.” In 1957 Wilson wrote “To some of us, the idea of substituting ‘good’ for ‘God’ in the Twelve Steps will seem like a watering down of A.A.’s message. But here we must remember that A.A.’s Steps are suggestions only. A belief in them, as they stand, is not at all a requirement for membership among us. This liberty has made A.A. available to thousands who never would have tried at all had we insisted on the Twelve Steps just as written."  

 

I guess you and Bill W don't agree.  So who to believe? 

Some can quote the "Good Book" chapter and verse.

Others can quote the "Big Book" chapter and verse.

Some might replace "God" with "good".

Others might replace the "Jesus" with "Bill W". 

Both will insist they are "right".

AA is a religion. you have just proven my point.

I'm not saying AA is bad. The "religion" of AA simply isn't for me.

But, for you, "a hard core atheist", a religion, based on "God" would be bad.

 

[marcusarelus]

1 hour ago, Curt1591 said:

Some can quote the "Good Book" chapter and verse.

Others can quote the "Big Book" chapter and verse.

Some might replace "God" with "good".

Others might replace the "Jesus" with "Bill W". 

Both will insist they are "right".

AA is a religion. you have just proven my point.

I'm not saying AA is bad. The "religion" of AA simply isn't for me.

But, for you, "a hard core atheist", a religion, based on "God" would be bad.

AA is not a religion.  Its membership is open to anyone of any belief system.  I'm an atheist and I have many atheist friends in AA.  There are many types of AA meetings.  I never liked Big Book meetings so never went.  Some AA people complete the 12 steps others don't.  I think you are trying to scare people away from AA by repeating your wrongful impression that it is a religion.  

 

After you go to enough meetings you begin to like going, that's the idea.  The little trappings of some silly folks about god and higher powers fall away and the true meaning of AA is exposed that of helping people stop drinking.  The founder of AA said a belief in god is not necessary and you disagree with him.  Sorry, you are wrong.  If you went to enough meetings you would have realized that AA suggests not requires.  The only necessary condition to be an AA member is a desire to stop drinking. 

 

Religion is a terrible thing and responsible for many of millions of people killing one another.  AA doesn't kill people or abuse children or start wars. 

[Curt1591]

" I think you are trying to scare people away from AA by repeating your wrongful impression that it is a religion. "

Where did I try to scare people away? My first post on this topic, post # 80, I recommended AA:

 

On 8/22/2018 at 10:10 AM, Curt1591 said:

It's willpower and support. The second post gave the best answer: http://www.aathailand.org/view-for-todays-meetings-do-not-use/4?field_region_value=Eastern+Seaboard-Jomtien-Pattaya-Islands. Supporting alcoholics is what they do. If he needs medical assistance, they should know. 

Pick an "open" meeting, find a sponsor, and listen closely. He may have to give up most of his current friends. Often, they will trigger a relapse.

A couple of steadfast AA members have since kept trying to discredit me. 

Call AA whatever you want. But, it has all the trappings of a religion. Religion doesn't equate to "God".  You are too hung up on "God" to see that.

Can I assume that you might believe that Scientology is a religion? 

Their "Higher Power" is the "Eighth Dynamic".

The Church of Scientology has no set dogma concerning God that it imposes on its members. As with all its tenets, Scientology does not ask individuals to accept anything on faith alone. Rather, as one’s level of spiritual awareness increases through participation in Scientology, ... , one attains his own certainty of every dynamic. 

Sound familiar?

Edited August 24, 2018 by Curt1591

[marcusarelus]

4 hours ago, Curt1591 said:

" I think you are trying to scare people away from AA by repeating your wrongful impression that it is a religion. "

Where did I try to scare people away? My first post on this topic, post # 80, I recommended AA:

 

A couple of steadfast AA members have since kept trying to discredit me. 

Call AA whatever you want. But, it has all the trappings of a religion. Religion doesn't equate to "God".  You are too hung up on "God" to see that.

Can I assume that you might believe that Scientology is a religion? 

Their "Higher Power" is the "Eighth Dynamic".

The Church of Scientology has no set dogma concerning God that it imposes on its members. As with all its tenets, Scientology does not ask individuals to accept anything on faith alone. Rather, as one’s level of spiritual awareness increases through participation in Scientology, ... , one attains his own certainty of every dynamic. 

Sound familiar?

No.  AA helps people stop drinking.  Nothing to do with religion.  A lot of people including myself don't like religion (current religions and or cults).  Equating AA with a religion would keep people away who feel like me - anti religious and that would be a shame because you happen to have a skewed definition of what constitutes a religion.  You don't get it.  There is no required dogma in AA merely suggestions.  The only thing necessary for membership in AA is a desire to stop drinking.  The founder of AA Bill W states, " Steps are suggestions only. A belief in them, as they stand, is not at all a requirement for membership"  

 

According you the Mickey Mouse club would be a religion but it's not. 

 

Alcohol was the leading risk factor for disease and premature death in men and women between the ages of 15 and 49 worldwide in 2016, accounting for nearly one in 10 deaths, according to the study,published Thursday in the journal The Lancet. For all ages, alcohol was associated with 2.8 million deaths that year.

 

I don't like everything about AA but I would not post my personal opinions here in an "I drink too much" forum because they might influence a person not to try AA and it is the best hope to stop drinking. 

 

 

Edited August 24, 2018 by marcusarelus

[Curt1591]

"According you the Mickey Mouse club would be a religion but it's not."

There are plenty of clubs, organizations and other gatherings that aren't a religion. 

 

I can't remember Annette or Cubby ever bearing witness, or suggesting a path to salvation. Jimmie or Roy never suggested Mickey Mouse Club as means to anything. There weren't any real rules to the club, no "program", no sponsors, no fellowship. The Mouseketeers never tried to transform anyone. They never professed to be anything but entertainment.

 

Call AA what you want. But...

 

... There's none so blind as those who will not see.

I didn't care for the religious aspects of AA - the bearing witness, the instance the "program" is the only way.

 

But, the biggest single factor that drove me away, at first opportunity,  was members just like you - people who think know everything and insist they are right!

I haven't had a single drink since November 5th 1975. I had a shaky start. But, from the day left AA, approximately 1 year later, I have had absolutely no desire to drink anything alcoholic.

I know your comeback will be that this proves that I am not a "real" alcoholic, just as total alcohol saturation for 4 continual years didn't make me "chronic". But, I beg to differ ...

I know relapse is just one drink away (Step #1). And, knowing that keeps me sober. 
 

 

[marcusarelus]

16 hours ago, Curt1591 said:

"According you the Mickey Mouse club would be a religion but it's not."

There are plenty of clubs, organizations and other gatherings that aren't a religion. 

 

I can't remember Annette or Cubby ever bearing witness, or suggesting a path to salvation. Jimmie or Roy never suggested Mickey Mouse Club as means to anything. There weren't any real rules to the club, no "program", no sponsors, no fellowship. The Mouseketeers never tried to transform anyone. They never professed to be anything but entertainment.

 

Call AA what you want. But...

 

... There's none so blind as those who will not see.

I didn't care for the religious aspects of AA - the bearing witness, the instance the "program" is the only way.

 

But, the biggest single factor that drove me away, at first opportunity,  was members just like you - people who think know everything and insist they are right!

I haven't had a single drink since November 5th 1975. I had a shaky start. But, from the day left AA, approximately 1 year later, I have had absolutely no desire to drink anything alcoholic.

I know your comeback will be that this proves that I am not a "real" alcoholic, just as total alcohol saturation for 4 continual years didn't make me "chronic". But, I beg to differ ...

I know relapse is just one drink away (Step #1). And, knowing that keeps me sober.

You went to a few AA meetings 40 years ago and you are an expert?  I didn't go to AA to stop drinking.  I went to a $200 an hour American Psychiatrist who advised me in addition to the medications he was prescribing to go to an AA meeting as it was the best way for long term sobriety. 

 

I don't know your health condition.  I know a lot of dry drunks that remind me of the anti religion or anti meeting or anti step line. 

 

I just hope any people who are searching for a way to stop drinking and save their lives don't not give AA a try because some uninformed fellow thinks it's a religion. 

 

If anyone is looking for a way to stop drinking go to an AA meeting and give it a try.  It dosen't hurt. 

 

If the fellow above who thinks AA is a religion has managed to dissuade you and you jump of that balcony instead - that is what he had in mind.  Misery loves company. 

[Curt1591]

58 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

You went to a few AA meetings 40 years ago and you are an expert?  I didn't go to AA to stop drinking.  I went to a $200 an hour American Psychiatrist who advised me in addition to the medications he was prescribing to go to an AA meeting as it was the best way for long term sobriety. 

 

I don't know your health condition.  I know a lot of dry drunks that remind me of the anti religion or anti meeting or anti step line. 

 

I just hope any people who are searching for a way to stop drinking and save their lives don't not give AA a try because some uninformed fellow thinks it's a religion. 

 

If anyone is looking for a way to stop drinking go to an AA meeting and give it a try.  It dosen't hurt. 

 

If the fellow above who thinks AA is a religion has managed to dissuade you and you jump of that balcony instead - that is what he had in mind.  Misery loves company. 

"You went to a few AA meetings 40 years ago and you are an expert?  I didn't go to AA to stop drinking.  I went to a $200 an hour American Psychiatrist who advised me in addition to the medications he was prescribing to go to an AA meeting as it was the best way for long term sobriety. "

I attended close to 100 meetings - twice a week, for a year, barring illness.. In anyone's book, that would equate to quite a few. I am not, nor do I profess to be, an expert on AA. I have simply made a few observations during my hundred visits.

I never consulted a psychiatrist. 

"I don't know your health condition."  

I'm fine, thank you.

"I know a lot of dry drunks that remind me of the anti religion or anti meeting or anti step line."

You are obsessively anti-religion. It clouds your thinking.

Although religion isn't for me, I'm not anti religion or anti-AA meeting. It's just that neither are my cup of coffee.

I am most definitely not anti-12 step. And, I live by the serenity prayer. 

BTW, I'm not a drunk; I'm alcoholic. One becomes drunk from drinking alcohol.

"If anyone is looking for a way to stop drinking go to an AA meeting and give it a try.  It dosen't hurt. "

By all means, please go! 

"If the fellow above who thinks AA is a religion has managed to dissuade you and you jump of that balcony instead - that is what he had in mind.  Misery loves company. "

Thank you for those kind words. I wish you all the best too!

I am far from miserable - never been happier. 

It's been a real flashback chatting with you. You have definitely reminded me of why I left. 



 

 

 

[marcusarelus]

4 hours ago, Curt1591 said:

"You went to a few AA meetings 40 years ago and you are an expert?  I didn't go to AA to stop drinking.  I went to a $200 an hour American Psychiatrist who advised me in addition to the medications he was prescribing to go to an AA meeting as it was the best way for long term sobriety. "

I attended close to 100 meetings - twice a week, for a year, barring illness.. In anyone's book, that would equate to quite a few. I am not, nor do I profess to be, an expert on AA. I have simply made a few observations during my hundred visits.

I never consulted a psychiatrist. 

"I don't know your health condition."  

I'm fine, thank you.

"I know a lot of dry drunks that remind me of the anti religion or anti meeting or anti step line."

You are obsessively anti-religion. It clouds your thinking.

Although religion isn't for me, I'm not anti religion or anti-AA meeting. It's just that neither are my cup of coffee.

I am most definitely not anti-12 step. And, I live by the serenity prayer. 

BTW, I'm not a drunk; I'm alcoholic. One becomes drunk from drinking alcohol.

"If anyone is looking for a way to stop drinking go to an AA meeting and give it a try.  It dosen't hurt. "

By all means, please go! 

"If the fellow above who thinks AA is a religion has managed to dissuade you and you jump of that balcony instead - that is what he had in mind.  Misery loves company. "

Thank you for those kind words. I wish you all the best too!

I am far from miserable - never been happier. 

It's been a real flashback chatting with you. You have definitely reminded me of why I left. 
 

You too.  Great talking to you.  I'm sure all the AA members would like to know that Bill W was in error when he said that religion was not a requirement of AA.  Too bad he's not alive so you could straighten him out. 

[Curt1591]

1 hour ago, marcusarelus said:

You too.  Great talking to you.  I'm sure all the AA members would like to know that Bill W was in error when he said that religion was not a requirement of AA.  Too bad he's not alive so you could straighten him out. 

I find it very hard to believe that you could ever give yourself up to a "higher power", something greater than yourself. It seems to me that you demand to be the driver of that little red truck.

 

You are a very angry man.

[marcusarelus]

6 minutes ago, Curt1591 said:

I find it very hard to believe that you could ever give yourself up to a "higher power", something greater than yourself. It seems to me that you demand to be the driver of that little red truck.

 

You are a very angry man.

People who start AA do 90 meetings in 90 days.  That would mean you would have done 200 meetings in a year.  But you said you did 2 a week for a year.  Why don't you tell us the truth about your lack of AA experience?

[Curt1591]

45 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

People who start AA do 90 meetings in 90 days.  That would mean you would have done 200 meetings in a year.  But you said you did 2 a week for a year.  Why don't you tell us the truth about your lack of AA experience?

I was living in the sticks during the time I was attending meetings. The group met 2 times a week and was located over 40 miles away. 2 times a week, 52 weeks in a year ... do the math. I did confess that I did miss a time or two due to illness.  I'm sure Bill W would understand.

 

Why do you have to persist in trying to discredit me. I have never said one needs a belief in God to succeed in AA. I have always encouraged people who thought the needed help to go. I have even suggest church to some non-alcoholic troubled friends. 

I call AA a church. You call it .... I don't have a clue what you call it. Church, or the little red truck - either way it is no reason not to attend. Only an atheist, such as yourself, would turn away based on its classification as a church. Like it or not, the majority of people buy into some sort deity. 

Since we have turned this thread into real goat ropin' anyway, ...

As a "hardcore atheist", I'm sure one of the more often asked questions is "What about after you die?" Penn Jillette, the famous comedian / magician, is also a famous atheist. He gave the perfect answer to this dilemma . His said that worrying about after he's dead, is like worrying about 1855!

I know that if I take that 1st drink, my sobriety is over. That is my life jacket. However, what keeps me sober, on a moment to moment basis, is experiencing how good life is without alcohol.

One way or another, life goes on.







 

Edited August 25, 2018 by Curt1591

[marcusarelus]

1 hour ago, Curt1591 said:

I was living in the sticks during the time I was attending meetings. The group met 2 times a week and was located over 40 miles away. 2 times a week, 52 weeks in a year ... do the math. I did confess that I did miss a time or two due to illness.  I'm sure Bill W would understand.

 

Why do you have to persist in trying to discredit me. I have never said one needs a belief in God to succeed in AA. I have always encouraged people who thought the needed help to go. I have even suggest church to some non-alcoholic troubled friends. 

I call AA a church. You call it .... I don't have a clue what you call it. Church, or the little red truck - either way it is no reason not to attend. Only an atheist, such as yourself, would turn away based on its classification as a church. Like it or not, the majority of people buy into some sort deity. 

Since we have turned this thread into real goat ropin' anyway, ...

As a "hardcore atheist", I'm sure one of the more often asked questions is "What about after you die?" Penn Jillette, the famous comedian / magician, is also a famous atheist. He gave the perfect answer to this dilemma . His said that worrying about after he's dead, is like worrying about 1855!

I know that if I take that 1st drink, my sobriety is over. That is my life jacket. However, what keeps me sober, on a moment to moment basis, is experiencing how good life is without alcohol.

One way or another, life goes on.

I live in Thailand next to Laos, Vietnam, Cambodia and China.  Buddhists don't believe in a god and neither to Chinese.  Maybe you got your geography wrong (vast majority of people in this neck of the woods don't believe in a god).  I'd like to see more Asian people try AA but emphasis on a deity is not the way to get them interested. 

[swissman53]

There is a new blue book in Thai and some brocures, easy for Thai people to understand.

 

And again for all skeptic writers and thinkers

Nobody tell's you that you have to go to a AA meeting.

Most important for me is, that I go and can manage my life like

many others...

[MrPatrickThai]

On 8/23/2018 at 11:35 AM, marcusarelus said:

AA was there for me when I needed them and I will always provide the fellowship to any other alcoholic who needs it to pay my debt. 

You can't help them if you haven't worked the steps, which require a belief in God, as you understand Him.

On a side note, why do think Pattaya has a high number of AA members that don't work the steps?

I went to meetings there 20 years ago where the chairman said he was 20 years sober and only worked 2 steps, and suggested others did the same.

Sadly, they go to that place for one reason, to replace one addiction with another, that of sexual addiction. Amazingly, there is no SA in Pattaya, I wonder why ?

[gk10002000]

On 8/20/2018 at 2:24 AM, cms22 said:

I've been in similar situations in the past. It's a case of forcing yourself to gradually reduce and wind down over a period of a month or so. The most important aspect of the winding down process is activity. Your friend needs to do something instead of sitting down thinking about the next beer. That's the most important point. For me this activity was - and still is - walking. I walk miles each day, stops me drinking, keeps me fit, gets me about, and gives me opportunities to take photos and meet people.

Yes, activity, activity, activity.  I am 61 now and over the years have known personally several people with drinking and gambling problems.   Now some times they really just wanted to go drink or gamble.  I get it.  But at least as many times they simply did not have any other activity that they wanted to do more!  No buddies to go fishing with and just enjoy the outdoors.  No golfing buddies to go play golf with and fill up the day.  Not a lot of friends or family to go hang out with, barbecue with, etc.  No online class work, no working towards a college degree or on line MBA or whatever. No girlfriend to go to the movies with, or travel with, or whatever.  It becomes too easy to just do nothing and drink to kill the time in the days.  

  "The devil finds use for idle hands" as they say. 

[marcusarelus]

1 hour ago, MrPatrickThai said:

You can't help them if you haven't worked the steps, which require a belief in God, as you understand Him.

On a side note, why do think Pattaya has a high number of AA members that don't work the steps?

I went to meetings there 20 years ago where the chairman said he was 20 years sober and only worked 2 steps, and suggested others did the same.

Sadly, they go to that place for one reason, to replace one addiction with another, that of sexual addiction. Amazingly, there is no SA in Pattaya, I wonder why ?

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/where-science-meets-the-steps/201412/aa-without-the-god

 

In Step Two we decided to describe God as a “Power greater than ourselves.” In Steps Three and Eleven we inserted the words “God as we understood Him.” From Step Seven we deleted the expression “on our knees.” And, as a lead-in sentence to all the steps we wrote these words: “Here are the steps we took which are suggested as a Program of Recovery.” AA’s Twelve Steps were to be suggestions only.

Such were the final concessions to those of little or no faith; this was the great contribution of our atheists and agnostics. They had widened our gateway so that all who suffer may pass through, regardless of their belief or lack of belief.

 

I guess you belong to a different AA than I do.  I don't think Pattaya has a high percent who don't work the steps. 

 

PS have you ever been to an SA meeting?  SA is for extreme cases of people who hurt themselves or others.  I don't see much of that in Pattaya.  In Pattaya people have normal sex drives and the rest of the world they are forced to be eunuchs.  Pattaya has always struck me as a healthy place for sex and a great place to recover from alcohol addiction because you are not so frustrated you have get drunk to sleep at night. 

Edited August 25, 2018 by marcusarelus

[Curt1591]

9 hours ago, marcusarelus said:

I live in Thailand next to Laos, Vietnam, Cambodia and China.  Buddhists don't believe in a god and neither to Chinese.  Maybe you got your geography wrong (vast majority of people in this neck of the woods don't believe in a god).  I'd like to see more Asian people try AA but emphasis on a deity is not the way to get them interested. 

But, have you ever heard the term "Lord Buddha"? Don't think they believe he is a member of British royalty. 

Many Asians follow the religion of Buddhism, ignoring a more pure practice. Much of the trappings one sees is what Buddha, himself, left behind.

A belief in a higher power isn't going to deter any Asians. "God" or not, most believe Buddha to be just that, a higher power.

 

7 hours ago, gk10002000 said:

Yes, activity, activity, activity.  I am 61 now and over the years have known personally several people with drinking and gambling problems.   Now some times they really just wanted to go drink or gamble.  I get it.  But at least as many times they simply did not have any other activity that they wanted to do more!  No buddies to go fishing with and just enjoy the outdoors.  No golfing buddies to go play golf with and fill up the day.  Not a lot of friends or family to go hang out with, barbecue with, etc.  No online class work, no working towards a college degree or on line MBA or whatever. No girlfriend to go to the movies with, or travel with, or whatever.  It becomes too easy to just do nothing and drink to kill the time in the days.  

  "The devil finds use for idle hands" as they say. 

I had to give fishing a pass for a while. Nothing like sitting around, waiting for them to bite, to fire up a thirst! Never did take up golfing. Life can frustrating enough already! (Grant me the serenity!)

I was quite active during my drinking days - maybe too active. However, most activities involved drinking.

Unlike deity based churches, where one follows the practice for the reward at the end, or something like AA, where one follows the little red truck to avoid the pending doom, I prefer to appreciate the reward that living a clean and sober life affords, in and of itself. Still, I always keep my life jacket, that 1st drink deterrent, nearby ...

As I mentioned earlier, alcohol is deeply imbedded into today's society, so much that many people can't fathom "enjoying" life without it. Ever read all the pissing and moaning about dry days on Thailand forums?


 

[marcusarelus]

2 hours ago, Curt1591 said:

But, have you ever heard the term "Lord Buddha"? Don't think they believe he is a member of British royalty. 

Many Asians follow the religion of Buddhism, ignoring a more pure practice. Much of the trappings one sees is what Buddha, himself, left behind.

A belief in a higher power isn't going to deter any Asians. "God" or not, most believe Buddha to be just that, a higher power.

 

I had to give fishing a pass for a while. Nothing like sitting around, waiting for them to bite, to fire up a thirst! Never did take up golfing. Life can frustrating enough already! (Grant me the serenity!)

I was quite active during my drinking days - maybe too active. However, most activities involved drinking.

Unlike deity based churches, where one follows the practice for the reward at the end, or something like AA, where one follows the little red truck to avoid the pending doom, I prefer to appreciate the reward that living a clean and sober life affords, in and of itself. Still, I always keep my life jacket, that 1st drink deterrent, nearby ...

As I mentioned earlier, alcohol is deeply imbedded into today's society, so much that many people can't fathom "enjoying" life without it. Ever read all the pissing and moaning about dry days on Thailand forums?

Lord" does not directly translate to "god".   That honorific has been applied historically to all manner of folks of nobility...  "My Lord, may I bother you to sign this document... Or check out the current series on Netflix "Mr. Sunshine about Korea for an Asian use of the term."   

 

You are not a member of AA but you are an expert on AA.  You are not a Buddhist but your are an expert on Buddhism.  Your beliefs about AA are in contradiction (see above Bill W) of the founder of AA and your ideas on Buddha are in contradiction of all Theravada Buddhist scholars. 

 

You are suggesting your way is a better way than AA and mocking AA with the pejorative reference to the little red truck.  2 million AA members as opposed to you, one person who finds following himself to be the more productive path.  AA helped you get sober.  What are you doing to pay AA back besides mocking and belittling people trying to get and stay sober with AA? 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 26, 2018 by marcusarelus

[Sheryl]

OK, this thread has more than crossed the line into exactly what sub-forum rule # 2 prohibits, and for the past 5 days has been nothing but anti-AA/pro-AA arguments.

 

" 2. ....There are a number of different approaches to achieving sobriety. Thai Visa neither endorses nor condemns any of them, and this forum is not an appropriate venue for campaigns to either discredit or promote a particular approach. People who have achieved sobriety are naturally eager to share what worked for them with others, and people who have decided for or against a particular approach are often understandably eager to explain and defend their choice. Sharing of experiences is absolutely encouraged, but should not cross the line into argumentative debate or defamatory campaigns. These are unconstructive and will not be allowed. Please limit yourself to describing what did or did not work for you/people you know, and respect that the experience of others may differ.

Constructive suggestions – particularly those based on personal experience – are welcome, but overly aggressive attempts to persuade someone to adopt or discard a particular approach to achieving sobriety are not permitted. Moderators will use their discretion in determining at what point the line between constructive suggestions and aggressive attempts to persuade/dissuade is crossed."

 

Closed.