Dealing with retirement visa rewewal financial requirements

[Fredh]

Can anybody help me understand my options?  I need to renew my visa. My visa agency is telling me something has changed and they're really strict about what they will accept for income and/or having 800K in the bank.  When I search online I see conflicting info.  Some sites say the money has to be in the bank 3 months before renewal (if that's true, I'm screwed! https://assistthaivisa.com/retirement-visa-chiangmai/).  Some sites say it's 800K per year of income OR 800K in the bank (http://www.chiangmaivisaservice.com/services/retirement-visa/).  Others say it can be a combination like 400K of income and 400K in the bank (http://www.thaiembassy.com/retire/retire.php https://assistthaivisa.com/retirement-visa-chiangmai/).  

I have about 450K of social security income.  I would like to "prove" the rest of the income somehow without having to put money in the bank in Thailand. I could, but I'd rather not if it can be avoided because it would require liquidating assets I don't want to liquidate.  Also, I don't have 3 months in advance to put the money in the bank.

Does anybody have any info or advice?  I have a 30 year usurfruct on a home so I have no problem proving I have a place to stay. 

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

 

[Jingthing]

I can address the actual rules for what you want to do -- a subsequent annual extension of stay based on retirement. 

 

There are three options:

 

One -- 800K in a Thai bank account seasoned for at least 90 days before your application at immigration

 

Two -- Income of at least 65K monthly "proven" by income letter from your embassy or consulate. Immigration has the right to demand additional evidence of that income beyond the letter, but usually doesn't. 

 

Three -- Combination method. Income letter as above PLUS funds in a Thai bank account also seasoned for the 90 days. For example, income letter showing 500k plus 301K in a Thai bank account where the balance has not gone below 300K for the entire 90 days before the application at immigration.

 

It sounds like bad news for you if you can't season funds for a combination application.

If you have legit income of 800K for the embassy letter, that income does not need to show up in a Thai bank.

Based on your post, it sounds like you don't really have it. 

Your housing situation is irrelevant. 

[ubonjoe]

To apply for a extension of stay based upon retirement you need 800k baht in the bank for 3 months or proof of 65k baht income or a combination of the 2 totaling 800k baht.

The 65k baht income can be from any source from outside the country. It does not have to be income from a pension.

You can use the combination of your annual income of 450k baht and 350k baht in the bank. The written rules does not state the money has to be in any amount of time but some immigration offices require it to be in the bank for 3 months.

[elviajero]

A first extension of stay based on retirement requires and cash to be in the bank for 60 days; the second and all subsequent extensions it should be 3 months.

 

You can combine income and cash in the bank. The cash will need to be in the bank for 3 months (or 60 days for first application). If the amount in the bank is small the IO might waive that 3 month rule.

 

If you have the equivalent of 450K baht in income you need at least 350K in your bank for 3 months.

 

If you can't meet the requirement you could go to Laos and get a new Non 'O' visa, enter with that, and start again. If you're the spouse or parent of a Thai you could change the reason for your stay, and the financial requirement goes down to 400K or 40K pm income (no combination allowed).

[ubonjoe]

21 minutes ago, elviajero said:

You can combine income and cash in the bank. The cash will need to be in the bank for 3 months (or 60 days for first application). If the amount in the bank is small the IO might waive that 3 month rule.

That is not what the requirements for the extension states.

"(5) Must have an annual earning and funds deposited with a bank totaling no less than Baht
800,000 as of the filing date."

Source: https://www.immigration.go.th/content/service_22

[allane]

To my knowledge there have been no recent changes. You state that you are doing a renewal. Why can't you do the same as whatever you did a year ago ?

You do require a 90 day "seasoning" period, unlike the 60 day period initially.

 

Edited August 20, 2018 by allane
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[elviajero]

19 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

42 minutes ago, elviajero said:

You can combine income and cash in the bank. The cash will need to be in the bank for 3 months (or 60 days for first application). If the amount in the bank is small the IO might waive that 3 month rule.

That is not what the requirements for the extension states.

"(5) Must have an annual earning and funds deposited with a bank totaling no less than Baht 800,000 as of the filing date."

Source: https://www.immigration.go.th/content/service_22

And for several years, all the major offices, have not been applying the criteria you are quoting as they received additional orders to ensure the funds for combination applications were seasoned for the full 60 days/3 months. My local office confirmed to me that they can (discretionary) accept applications if the cash has been in for less time if the amount is small.

 

The additional orders occurred due to people abusing the spirit of the original rule, which was to cater for exchange rate changes or small shortfalls in the income requirement. Under the rules as written it is possible to have 799K in the bank and a 1K pa income, and not have to 'season' the funds as someone with 800K and no income would. That loophole was shut down.

[Fredh]

3 minutes ago, allane said:

To my knowledge there have been no recent changes. You state that you are doing a renewal. Why can't you do the same as whatever you did a year ago ?

 

Last year I didn't do anything, they didn't check the bank balance.

What are my options for proving additional income?  What constitutes "proof"?  Can I just get a friend that owns a business to sign a letter regarding employment and salary?  What qualifies besides social security?

[Fredh]

5 minutes ago, elviajero said:

And for several years, all the major offices, have not been applying the criteria you are quoting as they received additional orders to ensure the funds for combination applications were seasoned for the full 60 days/3 months. My local office confirmed to me that they can (discretionary) accept applications if the cash has been in for less time if the amount is small.

 

The additional orders occurred due to people abusing the spirit of the original rule, which was to cater for exchange rate changes or small shortfalls in the income requirement. Under the rules as written it is possible to have 799K in the bank and a 1K pa income, and not have to 'season' the funds as someone with 800K and no income would. That loophole was shut down.

This is what I'm worried about, I really don't want to put the funds in Thailand anyway but even if I do I could still get screwed.  So it seems like the best bet is to get a proof of income. But I'm not sure how.

[ubonjoe]

1 minute ago, Fredh said:

So it seems like the best bet is to get a proof of income. But I'm not sure how.

To apply for the extension the only proof of income accepted by immigration is a income letter from your embassy. If you can show the equivalent of 65k baht income on one immigration will accept your application.

[Jingthing]

Reading between the lines here, I'm wondering if a visa agent told the OP that he needs to show the amount of income he is claiming FLOWING into Thailand as a way of proving the income on top of the income letter. That could be something to do with current enforcement at his local office. As I said before just showing an embassy income letter is supposed to be enough, but specific enforcement rules can vary over time and office. 

Under the written rules based on income applications, there is no written requirement to actually import those claimed funds, but written rules and current enforcement can vary.

Has the OP been using a visa agent year after year not realizing the rules in the first place? 

[JackThompson]

2 hours ago, Fredh said:

Last year I didn't do anything, they didn't check the bank balance.

If you obtained a renewal last year via an agent, the agent may have bypassed your financial requirements, as is common with agent "sponsored" retirement-extensions.  There are public ads advertising this "service" - which bypasses the rules that those applying in-person must follow. 

 

Usually, agents put the money in and out of a bank-account in your name within a day to get a bank-letter with the required balance, and the immigration-staff they deal with "overlook" the lack of 90-days seasoning of the money.  Fees generally range from 15K to 25K Baht for a 1900 Baht service, and you can guess where some of that money goes.  Due to no oversight/crackdown on this blatant practice, at some offices, some services can now be difficult and/or impossible to obtain honestly - even when meeting all written requirements - without an agent's "help."

 

Creating unofficial new rules for the "combination method" of financial qualification for retirement-extensions (seasoning on the money in-the-bank - never written into a ministerial-order) helps immigration-offices force more applicants to agents, increasing the huge amounts of under-the-table money that flows in to them from agent-fees. 

 

If this is the same visa-agent you used last year, it is possible that either:

• They lost their "connection" which allowed them to do "no financials" retirement extensions
• They will be requesting a higher fee to provide this "option" for this year's extension

[Fredh]

5 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

To apply for the extension the only proof of income accepted by immigration is a income letter from your embassy. If you can show the equivalent of 65k baht income on one immigration will accept your application.

Right but how do I get the embassy to do this?  Surely some form of income besides a pension/social security is acceptable right?  What document(s) do I need?  Can a business owner in another country just give me a letter saying I'm employed and that will be good enough?

[Fredh]

4 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Reading between the lines here, I'm wondering if a visa agent told the OP that he needs to show the amount of income he is claiming FLOWING into Thailand as a way of proving the income on top of the income letter. That could be something to do with current enforcement at his local office. As I said before just showing an embassy income letter is supposed to be enough, but specific enforcement rules can vary over time and office. 

Under the written rules based on income applications, there is no written requirement to actually import those claimed funds, but written rules and current enforcement can vary.

Has the OP been using a visa agent year after year not realizing the rules in the first place? 

 

What constitutes an "income letter"?  I am American if it matters.

[Jingthing]

22 minutes ago, Fredh said:

 

What constitutes an "income letter"?  I am American if it matters.

OK. Good. Yes, it matters.

To get an income letter from the U.S. embassy or consulate, NO proof of income is required whatsoever. You do need to swear you are being truthful. 

Make an appointment and get the letter and claim your income. 

As far as your meeting at immigration, they may or may not demand documentation to back up your income claim. So you should be prepared if possible. Income is not limited to pensions. If immigration demanding proof is going to be a big problem for you, well, you might want to take a chance with that anyway. If you already know that your office is going to demand proof, then get that proof ready the best way you can. 

[elviajero]

21 minutes ago, Fredh said:

What constitutes an "income letter"?  I am American if it matters

You go to the American Embassy to get a letter (affidavit) that you earn x USD, and the Embassy will issue you the lettter without any proof of your income. You basically swear the income is true.

 

Immigration will usually accept that affidavit without asking for any proof of your income.

[Jingthing]

3 minutes ago, elviajero said:

You go to the American Embassy to get a letter (affidavit) that you earn x USD, and the Embassy will issue you the lettter without any proof of your income. You basically swear the income is true.

 

Immigration will usually accept that affidavit without asking for any proof of your income.

Usually they will but not always. So it's always best to be ready to support your income claim at immigration. 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

I was at BKK Immigration CW today to apply for my latest annual retirement extension -- American long stayer with a consulate income affidavit.

 

Just the same as in past years, I was not asked to provide or show any kind of backup documentation for my reported income -- though I had an entire packet full of income statements ready if needed.

 

And I saw no indication that others around me were being asked for backup documentation either, as the whole non-O extensions area was quiet, peaceful, orderly, and moving relatively quickly today.

 

[balo]

Option 4 is to use a visa agent who will provide you with the 800k as a short loan .  You have to pay around 20k fees for their service. 

 

But it depends on where you live , Chonburi, Hua Hin or Bangkok is easy to get visas this way .