Many English teachers do not have work permits!

[DILLIGAD]

I have known immigration officers doing spot checks in schools for WP/visa violations. Teachers were immediately told to leave work.


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[My Thai Life]

6 minutes ago, DILLIGAD said:

I have known immigration officers doing spot checks in schools for WP/visa violations. Teachers were immediately told to leave work.

And they're the lucky ones, others have been deported.

[marcusarelus]

1 minute ago, My Thai Life said:

And they're the lucky ones, others have been deported.

I don't believe you. 

[My Thai Life]

8 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

I don't believe you. 

I have absolutely no need to lie about this at all.

 

It's fairly obvious from this subforum that most posters have very little interaction with the MoE, and consequently have very little knowledge of what's going on. They certainly won't get reliable information from Thai Visa on this subject - the deportations are not reported in the national press as they are not important (except to the deportees and their spouses), and the deportees are not going to boast about it here.

Edited September 29, 2018 by My Thai Life

[marcusarelus]

The new work permit law says no arrest and a fine only.  It is my opinion that stories of deportation here are to scare people and not factual.  Of course that's just my opinion as I've never met anyone who has had a serious problem as a result of teaching illegally. 

[anon2736434]

There is a minimum wage for foreigners depending on your country of origin. https://www.samuidaily.com/minimum-salaries-in-thailand/ I was offered a job with a company here as a language instructor (easy way to get around the teachers council BS for them) and my countries min. wage bracket was 50K/month. I think but not sure the MOE maybe has an exemption for this. Thailand's whole system would crash without the corruption and under the table dealings that go on. I don't know why you have such a big chip on your shoulder about other foreigners working without permits even with a degree but I'm guessing you dont have many friends here.

[Scott]

1 hour ago, Notagain said:

There is a minimum wage for foreigners depending on your country of origin. https://www.samuidaily.com/minimum-salaries-in-thailand/ I was offered a job with a company here as a language instructor (easy way to get around the teachers council BS for them) and my countries min. wage bracket was 50K/month. I think but not sure the MOE maybe has an exemption for this. Thailand's whole system would crash without the corruption and under the table dealings that go on. I don't know why you have such a big chip on your shoulder about other foreigners working without permits even with a degree but I'm guessing you dont have many friends here.

Teacher's are exempt from that regulation.  

 

[Scott]

Some years ago, we had a new visa girl who was a little overwhelmed by her job.   She took a short cut and forged a signature on a document that went to the Teacher's Council.   The TCT called the immigration officer, who said she had not signed a document for the person in question.   As a result the teacher was arrested and held at Immigration (not put in actual detention -- but not allowed to leave).   Immigration kept his passport.

 

A 70,000 Baht 'fine' was paid and he was charged and allowed to leave.   It took some discussion with Immigration to get them to believe that the new teacher was very unlikely to have forged a Thai document.   After an investigation, the visa girl was charged, but the charges against the new teacher were not drop until she was convicted, which was over a year later.   Immigration kept his passport during that time and he was given it to do visa runs and then required to return it to immigration.  

 

Needless to say, this put the school squarely in the crosshairs of the immigration office, which made a surprise visit to the school and checked the records of the teachers and did a cursory walk around.  

 

The problem with their surprise visit was that any teacher without a work permit, or an application for a work permit,  did not appear on the official roles, in part because taxes aren't paid until they have a WP.   Thus, immigration found no irregularities.

 

Had they checked the sign-in book for the foreign staff and compared that to their list of 'legal' teachers, things would have been different.   As it was, they all got back in their van and returned to the immigration office.   No teacher left the school, hid or did anything to conceal who they were.

 

The teacher who was detained worked an entire year without a work permit, although he was fully qualified for one.   Once the visa girl was charged and convicted (and sent to jail for a brief time), his charges were dismissed and he was granted a WP.  

 

 

 

[kwilco]

On 9/28/2018 at 11:41 PM, Scott said:

There are a lot of teachers who do not have Work Permits because they are not eligible for one.   Many of them are in the country legally, on retirement visas or marriage visas.  

 

Schools can get a work permit for employees for other positions, but immigration is aware that it is little more than a work around for unqualified people.   With at least some schools, they limit the number of work permits for other positions, such as assistants.

Those visas prohibit any form of work...so they are in breach of their visa.  Ergo in the country illegally

[anon2736434]

19 minutes ago, kwilco said:

Those visas prohibit any form of work...so they are in breach of their visa.  Ergo in the country illegally

Excuse me ??? O class visa holders are legally able get a work permit to work here. Maybe you should do a little research before posting. I will say this to all of you posters with chips on your shoulders about what other foreigners are doing with the consent of the thais should maybe consider teaching in another country with more rigid rules and higher pay. The thai economy will never support what you think is right.

[My Thai Life]

17 hours ago, marcusarelus said:

The new work permit law says no arrest and a fine only.  It is my opinion that stories of deportation here are to scare people and not factual.  Of course that's just my opinion as I've never met anyone who has had a serious problem as a result of teaching illegally. 

I am not giving you an opinion, I am recounting fact. In the last year I have known of 1 major school chain being closed down for employing foreigners without work permits, and I know of several farangs being deported for working illegally. I know of several other would be schools being closed down for non-WP irregularities.

 

I don't get my information from gossiping with foreigners.

 

By the way - could you provide a link to the "new work permit law"? Thanks.

 

[anon2736434]

Since you seem to like calling everyone that challenges your "opinions" a liar, here is another fact for you to swallow. https://www.tilleke.com/resources/relaxation-work-permit-requirements-thailand. You really dont know anything about the laws in thailand !!! Try reading some thai news once in awhile. Go ahead scott and remove this post but at least let him read it first.

[My Thai Life]

4 hours ago, Notagain said:

Since you seem to like calling everyone that challenges your "opinions" a liar, here is another fact for you to swallow. https://www.tilleke.com/resources/relaxation-work-permit-requirements-thailand. You really dont know anything about the laws in thailand !!! Try reading some thai news once in awhile. Go ahead scott and remove this post but at least let him read it first.

The link you have posted has no bearing on immigration and wp regulations for teachers. It has been bouncing around other subforums on TV for a while; and the wishful thinking that has been pumped into it on TV is just that - wishful thinking on TV.

 

My information comes directly from the MoE and the Immigration Department, both of which my job requires me to work with; I am not posting my opinions - I am posting facts as they have been described to me by the MoE and Immigration.

Edited September 30, 2018 by My Thai Life

[otherstuff1957]

10 hours ago, kwilco said:

Those visas prohibit any form of work...so they are in breach of their visa.  Ergo in the country illegally

 

    While you cannot work legally on a type O-Retirement visa, you can work legally and get a Work Permit with a type-O Marriage visa.  I have been doing so for years.

Edited September 30, 2018 by otherstuff1957

[CharlieH]

An insulting post and response have been removed.

 

Keep it civil please.

7) You will respect fellow members and post in a civil manner. No personal attacks, hateful or insulting towards other members, (flaming) Stalking of members on either the forum or via PM will not be allowed.

[My Thai Life]

English teachers do come in for a lot of flak. But I doubt they are the only people working without work permits.

[Just Weird]

On ‎9‎/‎21‎/‎2018 at 4:29 PM, tilbrook007 said:

My point is to expose this!

Why?  Wouldn't they give you a job?

[Just Weird]

On ‎9‎/‎25‎/‎2018 at 6:53 AM, DILLIGAD said:

I think it’s NOT safe to name that org due to strong slander laws in this country if the claim is true or false. It would also contravene forum rules probably too.

The country's libel laws would be a better reason not to write anything defamatory!

[kwilco]

11 hours ago, otherstuff1957 said:

 

    While you cannot work legally on a type O-Retirement visa, you can work legally and get a Work Permit with a type-O Marriage visa.  I have been doing so for years.

I've seen this.......So many are working illegally...How can this be a satisfactory situation?

At any point the practice could change and the law could be enforced and any life you have built up will collapse and within a week you'll be out of the country.

Edited October 1, 2018 by kwilco

[kwilco]

8 hours ago, My Thai Life said:

English teachers do come in for a lot of flak. But I doubt they are the only people working without work permits.

I'd suggest the main numbers working with out w/o would be dive instructors.

Edited October 1, 2018 by kwilco

[Scott]

On 9/30/2018 at 5:29 PM, kwilco said:

I'd suggest the main numbers working with out w/o would be dive instructors.

Numbers wise, teachers would be quite a bit larger, I think, but % of those not holding a WP in the industry might well be dive instructors.  

 

I know and have had a number of people apply to our schools (who were qualified teachers) simply because we would and could get them a WP.   Several of them were in more lucrative jobs, but were really tired of the headaches involved in not being legal. 

 

[My Thai Life]

The qualifications required for foreign teachers in Thailand have tightened in the last few years, and this is probably the biggest single cause of teachers without WPs. The rise of agencies is another reason.

 

[rvaviator]

2 hours ago, My Thai Life said:

The qualifications required for foreign teachers in Thailand have tightened in the last few years, and this is probably the biggest single cause of teachers without WPs. The rise of agencies is another reason.

 

Would you say that the standard of English (amongst students) has improved as a result of this increase in requirements? 

[My Thai Life]

1 hour ago, rvaviator said:

Would you say that the standard of English (amongst students) has improved as a result of this increase in requirements? 

Imagine a Thai who can't speak English teaching Thai in a government school in your country, and no-one in the school speaks sufficient Thai to be able to support him/her. Further, imagine that this person is not a qualified teacher, and is working without a work permit - an illegal immigrant. Would it work - obviously not. Would you support it - definitely not.

Edited October 3, 2018 by My Thai Life

[rvaviator]

4 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

Imagine a Thai who can't speak English teaching Thai in a government school in your country, and no-one in the school speaks sufficient Thai to be able to support him/her. Further, imagine that this person is not a qualified teacher, and is working without a work permit - an illegal immigrant. Would it work - obviously not. Would you support it - definitely not.

Sorry but that did not answer my question ...

 

But I am happy to answer yours ... If this imaginary teacher was the only one around .. and he/ she could actually teach. The fact that her paperwork was not up to scratch would not bother me at all.  On the other hand, if she did not produce results, then yes I would want the teacher out. 

 

Would you say that all English teachers with a degree and paperwork  ... are good English teachers?  My understanding is that you just need a degree  ..... to be able to teach English ... Let's say that your imaginary English teacher has a degree in fine art, would that ensure quality teaching? 

[Rhys]

..The MA is a research degree not a teaching enhancer...Ph.D... well.... point is good teachers, even language teachers come in all forms...

[My Thai Life]

10 hours ago, rvaviator said:

Sorry but that did not answer my question ...

 

But I am happy to answer yours ... If this imaginary teacher was the only one around .. and he/ she could actually teach. The fact that her paperwork was not up to scratch would not bother me at all.  On the other hand, if she did not produce results, then yes I would want the teacher out. 

 

Would you say that all English teachers with a degree and paperwork  ... are good English teachers?  My understanding is that you just need a degree  ..... to be able to teach English ... Let's say that your imaginary English teacher has a degree in fine art, would that ensure quality teaching? 

You're missing my main point, which is that the inability to speak Thai in an environment where no-one speaks English - as is the case in many or even most government schools - is a serious disadvantage, both inside and outside of the classroom.

 

The fact that people are willing to be illegal immigrants does say something about their character: it's not a pleasant word, but these people are criminals, and I wouldn't want criminals treaching my children, thanks.

Edited October 4, 2018 by My Thai Life

[My Thai Life]

6 hours ago, Rhys said:

The MA is a research degree not a teaching enhancer...Ph.D... well.... point is good teachers, even language teachers come in all forms...

In the UK and the US some MAs are research degrees which prepare you for a PhD, but most are taught degrees - such as the PGCE and MA TEFL/TESOL. The taught MAs do require a thesis to be written, but they are not research degrees.

 

The role and benefit of PhDs varies considerably from country to country - in the UK it's necessary or very useful for a higher academic position eg professorship; in Germany it's also useful in industry, but in the UK you rarely if ever meet a PhD in a full-time job in industry.

 

A taught MA gives you a very broad range of knowledge in a limited field eg MA TEFL/TESOL. A PhD provides for extremely narrow research in a very specific area - a true specialism, often incomprehensible even to educated non-specialists.

 

 

[My Thai Life]

1 hour ago, My Thai Life said:

such as the PGCE and MA TEFL/TESOL

PGCE is a Certificate of course, not a Master's, my earlier post was before my first coffee!

[My Thai Life]

On 9/29/2018 at 7:44 PM, Scott said:

Needless to say, this put the school squarely in the crosshairs of the immigration office, which made a surprise visit to the school

An interesting post Scott. I'm not sure if you're still actively engaged in education in Thailand, but it seems to me that over the last few years (1) the qualifications required for farang teachers have tightened up (2) the application of the Immigration and MoE laws and regulations have tightened up.

 

We had a surprise visit a few weeks ago as part of a more general "sweep" over a much larger area . A week or two later our Thai Director was advised that around 20 farangs had been netted, including several who were teaching online; the immigration officer was clear that this is against the rules.