Yet more confusion over the removal of Income Certification Letter for British expats

[soalbundy]

1 minute ago, SheungWan said:

Well if that is the case, then the P60 on its own should be enough as a standardized requirement?

Tell the IO, point is they have their system in place that has worked for years and then along comes the BE with raised hand ''Teacher, I know something that's not quite right''

[Spidey]

3 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

Well if that is the case, then the P60 on its own should be enough as a standardized requirement?

It is for the BE

Edited October 25, 2018 by Spidey

[Spidey]

1 minute ago, SheungWan said:

Just accusing the BE of cost cutting I think misses the point.

How so? Bearing in mind that the BE in Bangkok (and only Bangkok AFAIAA) cut most other notary services at the same time. Coincidence that they are about to move to smaller premises? I hardly think so.

[SheungWan]

30 minutes ago, Spidey said:

How so? Bearing in mind that the BE in Bangkok (and only Bangkok AFAIAA) cut most other notary services at the same time. Coincidence that they are about to move to smaller premises? I hardly think so.

Not sure how useful in further arguing the toss about cause and effect. Only two months to go now before the shutters come down unless there is any new news.

[Spidey]

Just now, SheungWan said:

Not sure how useful in further arguing the toss about cause and effect. Only two months to go now before the shutters come down unless there is any new news.

Generally agree but it could help in targeting our complaints. Personally, I'm targeting my complaints at the FCO in London rather than the British Embassy in Bangkok.

[SheungWan]

49 minutes ago, Spidey said:

It is for the BE

Then one might be inclined to suggest to the BE and TI that notwithstanding their reluctance to process and audit documents from the private sector recommend specific approval of the P60 as a standalone public doc for income purposes which requires no further auditing.

Edited October 25, 2018 by SheungWan

[Spidey]

Just now, SheungWan said:

Then one might be inclined to suggest to the BE and TI that notwithstanding their reluctance to process and audit documents from the private sector recommend approving the P60 as a standalone public doc for income purposes which requires no further auditing.

And notwithstanding my assertion that the decision to cease the income letters has rock all to do with verification.

[Esso49]

1 hour ago, SheungWan said:

Notarization in the UK is headache enough, so how is that going to work organising the process from Thailand?

You get the documents notarized in the UK.  I have had to do it on many occasions in the past.  Not difficult.  As the the British Embassy is run under British Law then they know for certain that those notarized documents are true and accurate statements and can thus state same. 

Edited October 25, 2018 by Esso49

[SheungWan]

3 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

Then one might be inclined to suggest to the BE and TI that notwithstanding their reluctance to process and audit documents from the private sector recommend specific approval of the P60 as a standalone public doc for income purposes which requires no further auditing.

 

Just now, Spidey said:

And notwithstanding my assertion that the decision to cease the income letters has rock all to do with verification.

Yes.

[SheungWan]

Just now, Esso49 said:

You get the documents notarized in the UK.  I have had to do it on many occasions in the past.  Not difficult.  As the the British Embassy is run under British Law then they now for certain that those notarized documents are true and accurate statements and can thus state same. 

A lot of guys don't come back to the UK for anything. They live in, their home is in Thailand to all effects and purposes.

[Pattaya46]

1 hour ago, SheungWan said:

Well if that is the case, then the P60 on its own should be enough as a standardized requirement?

P60 only show revenues that are taxed in UK. What about those who have revenues taxed in Thailand by example? Many expats have condos for rent, dividends,... and this can be their main source of revenues.

Also, if ever TI changes its rules (I doubt) it will not be a change for UK only but for every alien of any nationality. They must find a system standardized and simple, and IMHO the only one could be the check of equivalent 12x65'000 transferred on a Thai account during a 12 month period.

[soalbundy]

'Wake up' an American has posted that from 2019 the IO wont accept affidavits from the American embassy so this is quite worrying if this starts to spread to all other embassies. This would mean getting foreign bank statements translated (would a simple statement that each month the account has been deposited with x amounts of Euro's or would every transaction for the whole year be needed) 65k each month in a Thai account would be acceptable, from an ATM ? or direct transfer? questions after questions, we will have to wait and see.

[Spidey]

OK here's an interesting little development.

 

I received my income letter from the BE a few days ago. It was signed:

 

"Supanat Chonlakarn Pro Consul"

 

So, no longer a British official signing the letters.

 

This, to me, could mean one of 3 things:

 

1. British Embassy officials are trying to distance themselves further from the letter.

 

2. Due to the cessation of all notary services, there is no longer a British official in charge of Consular Services.

 

3. The person who was previously signing the letters has been given the "bum's rush".

 

I'd be interested to know who exactly was signing the letters prior to the duty being taken over by a Thai person. Was it the woman who appeared on the Pattaya radio show? No doubt she infuriated her seniors at the BE by revealing that the decision was made by the FCO as a result of an audit. I don't think that she was supposed to say that and could see her being sent back to Blighty as a result.

 

[Spidey]

2 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

'Wake up' an American has posted that from 2019 the IO wont accept affidavits from the American embassy so this is quite worrying if this starts to spread to all other embassies. This would mean getting foreign bank statements translated (would a simple statement that each month the account has been deposited with x amounts of Euro's or would every transaction for the whole year be needed) 65k each month in a Thai account would be acceptable, from an ATM ? or direct transfer? questions after questions, we will have to wait and see.

If this is the case, and we have only had one report thus far, I think that it would need a dedicated topic to help people through the difficulties that the BE decision has given them.

[SheungWan]

5 minutes ago, Pattaya46 said:

P60 only show revenues that are taxed in UK. What about those who have revenues taxed in Thailand by example? Many expats have condos for rent, dividends,... and this can be their main source of revenues.

Also, if ever TI changes its rules (I doubt) it will not be a change for UK only but for every alien of any nationality. They must find a system standardized and simple, and IMHO the only one could be the check of equivalent 12x65'000 transferred on a Thai account during a 12 month period.

I was in effect jettisoning all other evidence other than the P60 as a fall-back position of one doc that does not require any further auditing for income purposes.

[Esso49]

13 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

A lot of guys don't come back to the UK for anything. They live in, their home is in Thailand to all effects and purposes.

I do to, not gone back for years.  Do you think you personally have to meet the Notary Public in the UK ? 

[soalbundy]

2 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

I was in effect jettisoning all other evidence other than the P60 as a fall-back position of one doc that does not require any further auditing for income purposes.

The P60 by itself wouldn't usually generate enough income so a standard straightforward method for verifying other income streams would be vitally important and would no doubt be troublesome and expensive.

[davehowden]

11 minutes ago, Spidey said:

OK here's an interesting little development.

 

I received my income letter from the BE a few days ago. It was signed:

 

"Supanat Chonlakarn Pro Consul"

 

So, no longer a British official signing the letters.

 

This, to me, could mean one of 3 things:

 

1. British Embassy officials are trying to distance themselves further from the letter.

 

2. Due to the cessation of all notary services, there is no longer a British official in charge of Consular Services.

 

3. The person who was previously signing the letters has been given the "bum's rush".

 

I'd be interested to know who exactly was signing the letters prior to the duty being taken over by a Thai person. Was it the woman who appeared on the Pattaya radio show? No doubt she infuriated her seniors at the BE by revealing that the decision was made by the FCO as a result of an audit. I don't think that she was supposed to say that and could see her being sent back to Blighty as a result.

 

My letter from the BE dated 20/9/18 is signed by Stacey Adele Filer, Pro Consol.

[Expattaff1308]

If they want to go down the road of 40/65 deposits a month into a Thai account, this is easily verified by a bank letter similar to the 400.800k letter stating that Mr Expat has deposited 400/800k Thai Baht into his account over the last 12 mths which equates to 40/65k per month. (divided by 12 or the months you have been in Thailand) Backed up as they do now with with seasoned cash showing your Bank Book.

One has to wonder why this hasnt been suggested by the BE (though I dont think they understand the process of gaining an extension) or even by Immigration then this will alleviate all needs for embassy letters and meet the requirements to show an average income over the year which equates to the sums required by Immigration.

[Spidey]

15 minutes ago, davehowden said:

My letter from the BE dated 20/9/18 is signed by Stacey Adele Filer, Pro Consol.

Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't this the person who appeared on the radio show? Obviously someone wasn't impressed by her performance! 

 

My letter was dated 18/10/18.

 

Edit: I have listened to the interview again and the person being interviewed was Leanne Galloway, not the same person.

Edited October 25, 2018 by Spidey

[Peterw42]

31 minutes ago, Expattaff1308 said:

If they want to go down the road of 40/65 deposits a month into a Thai account, this is easily verified by a bank letter similar to the 400.800k letter stating that Mr Expat has deposited 400/800k Thai Baht into his account over the last 12 mths which equates to 40/65k per month. (divided by 12 or the months you have been in Thailand) Backed up as they do now with with seasoned cash showing your Bank Book.

One has to wonder why this hasnt been suggested by the BE (though I dont think they understand the process of gaining an extension) or even by Immigration then this will alleviate all needs for embassy letters and meet the requirements to show an average income over the year which equates to the sums required by Immigration.

Realistically, how could the banks generate a letter verifying income for varying circumstances.. Yes, a pretty easy exercise for someone who gets a pension on the 1st of each month, add it up and divide by 12. What about people who get lump sum income, varying amounts each month, no income one month and 170k the next month. Income could be 12 deposits a year or it could be 120 deposits a year from 10 different sources.

For most its a transfer of savings from home , when their account runs down, not a direct income into thai account.

Reality would be people getting very creative with moving money around so it appears as income.

The banks would need a full time forensic accountant doing income letters.

Edited October 25, 2018 by Peterw42

[Expattaff1308]

45 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

Realistically, how could the banks generate a letter verifying income for varying circumstances.. Yes, a pretty easy exercise for someone who gets a pension on the 1st of each month, add it up and divide by 12. What about people who get lump sum income, varying amounts each month, no income one month and 170k the next month. Income could be 12 deposits a year or it could be 120 deposits a year from 10 different sources.

For most its a transfer of savings from home , when their account runs down, not a direct income into thai account.

Reality would be people getting very creative with moving money around so it appears as income.

The banks would need a full time forensic accountant doing income letters.

Add up the total deposits over the year and divide by 12. Immaterial where they come from.

Surely even a bank can do that.

It can be every month every other, every quarter, twice a year, from 1, 2, 5, 10 different sources as long as over the year it totals up to 800k it will equate on average to 65k per month. So a letter by the bank stating this and backed up by your bank book, how much more verifying do they need.

I dont bring 65k every month I bring in more or less to meet my needs or the value of the pound. 

I was suggesting if they wanted to see the income arrive in a Thai Bank. 

Edited October 25, 2018 by Expattaff1308

[malagateddy]

Re the sorry scenario that perhaps many UK expats may find themselves in quite soon..is it possible that their Wifes coukd band together and then make an appointment with the head honcho of their respective Imm Office and explain to him/her the sad prospect of families being split up as husbands may have to return to the UK.
Also..surely it is possible for expats to band together..put just over 800000 baht together..and move the just over 800000 baht between them come t

Sent from my SM-G7102 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[malagateddy]

Sorry...

Between them to satisfy the 3 months before visa extension rule??
I realise that there would have to be TRUST to do that!!


Sent from my SM-G7102 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[stephenterry]

just heard from Chiang Mai visa agent that when she asked an IMM officer who was processing retirement extensions that the BE and probably the US and Oz embassies were to discontinue the Income letters, and what would TI do, it came as a surprise, because the officer hadn't heard.

 

So that's another example of the BE failing to coordinate with Thai authorities, or if they did, then it hasn't filtered down the line. There's going to be a lot of peed-off 50+ old people who haven't got 800k in a bank account, but are supporting their Thai families...

 

 

 

 

 

 

[stephenterry]

21 minutes ago, malagateddy said:

Sorry...

Between them to satisfy the 3 months before visa extension rule??
I realise that there would have to be TRUST to do that!!


Sent from my SM-G7102 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

Three very close friends could meet the seasoning period, if they each contribute c.270k each and swop the bank accounts - providing of course that each person is at least 3 months apart for their renewal date. 

 

Perhaps 2 people each contributing 400k would be simpler.

 

[Russell17au]

This is from the Notarial Service section of the Australian Embassy's website as at today 25/10/2018.

"We understand that the British Embassy in Bangkok will no longer be providing British nationals with letters confirming their income from 1 January 2019.

The Australian Embassy does not issue income letters. Our notarial services include the witnessing of Australian statutory declarations for Australian citizens, or for use in Australia. This process remains unchanged."

Some people are claiming that the Australian Embassy may also stop issuing income letters, but Australia have never issued these letters, it uses a different scheme to both the UK and the USA and it is not changing the procedure that is in place either now or in the future.

So those that are saying that Australia may change are not checking the facts and their claims are incorrect

[Russell17au]

22 minutes ago, stephenterry said:

just heard from Chiang Mai visa agent that when she asked an IMM officer who was processing retirement extensions that the BE and probably the US and Oz embassies were to discontinue the Income letters, and what would TI do, it came as a surprise, because the officer hadn't heard.

 

So that's another example of the BE failing to coordinate with Thai authorities, or if they did, then it hasn't filtered down the line. There's going to be a lot of peed-off 50+ old people who haven't got 800k in a bank account, but are supporting their Thai families...

 

 

 

 

 

 

Your statement regarding the Oz embassy is incorrect.

[stephenterry]

52 minutes ago, Russell17au said:

Your statement regarding the Oz embassy is incorrect.

Well spotted. Your updated post of today relating to Oz overrides my understanding as relayed by a visa agent, yesterday. There seems to be a lot of uncertainty as at now.  

Edited October 25, 2018 by stephenterry
addition to text.

[phutoie2]

1 hour ago, Russell17au said:

This is from the Notarial Service section of the Australian Embassy's website as at today 25/10/2018.

"We understand that the British Embassy in Bangkok will no longer be providing British nationals with letters confirming their income from 1 January 2019.

The Australian Embassy does not issue income letters. Our notarial services include the witnessing of Australian statutory declarations for Australian citizens, or for use in Australia. This process remains unchanged."

Some people are claiming that the Australian Embassy may also stop issuing income letters, but Australia have never issued these letters, it uses a different scheme to both the UK and the USA and it is not changing the procedure that is in place either now or in the future.

So those that are saying that Australia may change are not checking the facts and their claims are incorrect

well we all very happy for you, most of us (Brits) do n't really give a toss what you are doing as its none of our business.  This topic is all about the British Embassy income letter and its implications. Good day to you.