Australia considers recognising Jerusalem as Israel's capital

[Morch]

 

@dexterm

 

The so-called "problem" isn't helped much by dishonest partisan rendering and lies.

 

Trump's statement didn't actually leave things "vague", or at least not in a way departing from previous official US positions. This was pointed out on numerous topics, and yet you persist in ignoring it and pushing an "alternative facts" version:

 

Quote

... We are not taking a position of any final status issues, including the specific boundaries of the Israeli sovereignty in Jerusalem, or the resolution of contested borders.  Those questions are up to the parties involved.

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/statement-president-trump-jerusalem/

 

The "off the negotiating table" which you cling to had more to do with negotiations stalling every time the topic was raised. The point is more to do with demonstrating that it is not necessarily the hurdle it is made to be.

 

Notably, your "it's-not-that-simple" simplistic account, features a misleading presentation of parties' supposed views, but conveniently leaving out the Palestinians.

 

A "trade boycott"? As in the one which failed to appear vs. the US and/or Israel? And other than in your scaremongering posts - is there any clear indication of participants, scope and likelihood?

 

As demonstrated above (and on past topics), your contention that the move relates to making a two-state solution harder to reach is incorrect. And, of course, there was no "final status" decision taken, other than what's already accepted.

 

 

[Morch]

5 hours ago, Kiwiken said:

I would doubt very much whether New Zealand would follow suit and do as Australia . i would hope in the event that such a move was muted that a New Zealand Government would allow the New Zealand Public to say yay or nay and not be pressured by minorities either way

 

I doubt anyone seriously imagined New Zealand would "follow suit". Other than being Australia's neighbor, what's the relevance, exactly? And to get this straight - you expect a referendum on a decision such as this? Seems over the top.

[dexterm]

33 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

@dexterm

 

I somehow doubt you could substantiate that all Muslim in Australia feel as hotly about it as you do, or that they are even politically active and act in a well-coordinated manner. Just the usual co-opting thing you do on many related topics.

 

The standing nonsense about relation between where Jews reside and their position on Zionism is the usual drivel. People choose to live wherever based on a whole lot of reasons, without this necessarily having much to do with their ideological and political views. A point that ought to be rather obvious when posting on a forum such as this.

 

 

I somehow doubt that you could prove otherwise, so IOW your usual irrelevant obfuscation. 

 

But it is a fact that voting is compulsory in Australia. So Muslims need not necessarily be politically active or well co-ordinated; they simply watch the news, talk to their relatives and friends at the mosque, and recall what Morrison's party represents when it comes to next year's election and they are deciding who to vote for.

 

Although only 2.6% of the Australian population, it is pretty foolish needlessly to alienate any group of voters (already unsettled by leadership squabbles), when Morrison is getting absolutely zilch in return for his recklessness and incompetence.

 

And of course it isn't just Australian Muslims who may be upset. The large Muslim neighbor to the north is also having elections next year. The current president there has a religious running mate who may feel obliged to react in some way against Australia's apparent foreign policy shift in order to maintain his own power.

 

So unless Morrison backtracks he is hardly winning many friends with this silly stunt.

[Morch]

8 minutes ago, 300sd said:

I commend Australia for this, as I did with the US move. It's the capital of Israel apparently.

 

The capital of Canada is Ottawa and Washington DC for the US. Australia recognizes them also.

 

I don't think there are any serious contentions as to mentioned capitals' status, or much by way of territorial disputes. Not same same.

[Aussie999]

35 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

@dexterm

 

I somehow doubt you could substantiate that all Muslim in Australia feel as hotly about it as you do, or that they are even politically active and act in a well-coordinated manner. Just the usual co-opting thing you do on many related topics.

 

The standing nonsense about relation between where Jews reside and their position on Zionism is the usual drivel. People choose to live wherever based on a whole lot of reasons, without this necessarily having much to do with their ideological and political views. A point that ought to be rather obvious when posting on a forum such as this.

 

 

Muslims, as such, do not consider Jerusalem that important, it is Mecca that is the most revered city, Jerusalem is only important to the Palestinians. 

[dexterm]

50 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

And out comes the usual hyperbole scaremongering post.

 

To put nonsense in perspective - right after Trump's move, there was a major Muslim world convention on the matter. A whole lot of fiery statements were issued, and some threats along similar lines. Nothing much came out of it. Not even when it came to curtailing existing relations and trade with Israel (never mind the US). And this, despite you making similar scaremongering rants as well....

 

From media reports, it isn't even too clear which 13 countries are on that list, so the impact of their words (even if they were to back it up with deeds) may be questioned. The two main diplomats quoted were the Egyptian and Palestinian representatives. Could be wrong, but don't think either represents much by way of a major trade interest.

 

As for Indonesia, yeah...sure. They'll cut off trade to protest a suggestion to look into a move that may or may not happen, and in the process, hurt their own end. New Zealand's position is hardly news, and I don't think there was a suggestion trade or relations would be disrupted as a result of disagreement.

 

On a side note, it is amusing that while pretending to hold a principled stance, your rejection or acceptance of using economic threats as a leverage mechanism totally relies on which way it is directed.

 

 

>>And out comes the usual hyperbole scaremongering post.

 

Total nonsense. These statements are coming from Australia's own opposition who will probably be Australia's government next year, not just me!

 

I do realize you routinely throw into your posts the words: hyperbole, deflection, off topic, spin. misrepresentation in an attempt to get others' posts deleted. 

 

Trading partners have not said they will institute a boycott because of Morrison's whimsical "open to suggestions" comment. But they are clearly upset about it. They are making threatening noises that IF he goes through with this stupid stunt, I am sure there will be serious repercussions.

 

Your New Zealand reference is a complete red herring.

 

Australia aint the USA and is much more vulnerable to shifts in trade.

[Morch]

1 minute ago, dexterm said:

I somehow doubt that you could prove otherwise, so IOW your usual irrelevant obfuscation. 

 

But it is a fact that voting is compulsory in Australia. So Muslims need not necessarily be politically active or well co-ordinated; they simply watch the news, talk to their relatives and friends at the mosque, and recall what Morrison's party represents when it comes to next year's election and they are deciding who to vote for.

 

Although only 2.6% of the Australian population, it is pretty foolish needlessly to alienate any group of voters (already unsettled by leadership squabbles), when Morrison is getting absolutely zilch in return for his recklessness and incompetence.

 

And of course it isn't just Australian Muslims who may be upset. The large Muslim neighbor to the north is also having elections next year. The current president there has a religious running mate who may feel obliged to react in some way against Australia's apparent foreign policy shift in order to maintain his own power.

 

So unless Morrison backtracks he is hardly winning many friends with this silly stunt.

 

I somehow expected one lame deflection or the other. To make things clearer for you - I'm not the one making said dubious assertions, you are. And you cannot support them in any meaningful way.

 

Once more, you basically suggest all Muslims in Australia base their vote on issues which you are invested in. That they are basically of a unified mindset, conforming with yours. That's a rather surprising (or not) point of view from someone who tends to whine about generalizations applied to Muslims...

 

Your standing scaremongering regarding Indonesia was addressed on previous topics. I don't think Indonesia took such severe steps even when more direct issues rose between the nations, or that the Muslim World showed much inclination to act on tough words even following Trump's move.

 

Morrison apparently holds views which aren't to your liking. According to your predictions he is miscalculating, and it will backfire for him and his party -  so what's your complaint about?

 

[JimmyTheMook]

Pretty sure Australia has some very wealthy an influential Jews 

so it comes as no surprise they are doing the correct and honorable 

thing ???? 

[Morch]

12 minutes ago, Aussie999 said:

Muslims, as such, do not consider Jerusalem that important, it is Mecca that is the most revered city, Jerusalem is only important to the Palestinians. 

 

Jerusalem (or rather, the place of worship) is the third holiest for Muslims. Not as holy as Mecca, but still. Obviously holds more significance to Palestinians. Whether it's important enough for the Muslim World to take some sort of unified action, is another matter. The reaction following Trump's move suggests that's not the case.

 

[Morch]

18 minutes ago, dexterm said:

>>And out comes the usual hyperbole scaremongering post.

 

Total nonsense. These statements are coming from Australia's own opposition who will probably be Australia's government next year, not just me!

 

I do realize you routinely throw into your posts the words: hyperbole, deflection, off topic, spin. misrepresentation in an attempt to get others' posts deleted. 

 

Australia aint the USA and is much more vulnerable to shifts in trade.

 

And, of course, what politicians you support say is bereft of hyperbole, scaremongering and political games. That is, if one actually accepts that your version of things said is "the same" as the supposed source's. Spin it however you like, but it's hardly the first time you engage in such predictions (and specifically, on the Trump move thing) and failing to acknowledge things don't actually panning out as expected.

 

There wasn't any suggestion that the US and Australia are "the same". There was a suggestion that the Muslim World, as such, failed to take action even against the direct source of the move, and against the main "beneficiary". Asserting that it would rile up against Australia is rather far-fetched.

 

 

[dexterm]

Isn't it rather a dumb thing to do for a leader to even risk a backlash from Australia's Muslim voters and some of Australia's trading partners with absolutely nothing gained in return!

His announcement is certainly not aimed to win any of their hearts and minds.

For those reasons alone Morrison is displaying reckless incompetence as a leader.

 

If Morrison is actually dopey enough to follow through on his whim, and Australia's national interests suffer as a result, then he was warned. I feel sorry for Australia's farmers and the newly unemployed and thus he deserves to be thrown out at the next election.

 

'Unprincipled and craven': Morrison's Israel pitch plumbs new depths of stupid

To betray the national interest to chase a few votes is irresponsible. To betray it for no votes at all is stupid as well as irresponsible.
https://www.smh.com.au/national/unprincipled-and-craven-morrison-s-israel-pitch-plumbs-new-depths-of-stupid-20181016-p509wr.html

[300sd]

1 hour ago, Morch said:

 

I don't think there are any serious contentions as to mentioned capitals' status, or much by way of territorial disputes. Not same same.

That is true Morch, but with all due respect, I am saying that the US and Canada, along with most countries in the world, decide on their capital cities. The "State of Israel" is a country and I feel that it also has a right to do the same. 

[Kiwiken]

7 hours ago, Morch said:

 

I doubt anyone seriously imagined New Zealand would "follow suit". Other than being Australia's neighbor, what's the relevance, exactly? And to get this straight - you expect a referendum on a decision such as this? Seems over the top.

We had riots over a rugby tour during the apartheid era in South Africa. You would find NZ opinion pretty polarised on some subjects I believe moving Our Embassy would be one of them.

[Morch]

12 minutes ago, Kiwiken said:

We had riots over a rugby tour during the apartheid era in South Africa. You would find NZ opinion pretty polarised on some subjects I believe moving Our Embassy would be one of them.

 

Yeah well....still doesn't make the topic about NZ, or the "issue" of it making a similar move. Also, was there a referendum on that occasion you mention? Unless mistaken, all NZ referendums were about domestic issues.

[Kiwiken]

1 hour ago, Morch said:

 

Yeah well....still doesn't make the topic about NZ, or the "issue" of it making a similar move. Also, was there a referendum on that occasion you mention? Unless mistaken, all NZ referendums were about domestic issues.

Are they ,of Course you are an expert!

[Morch]

1 minute ago, Kiwiken said:

Are they ,of Course you are an expert!

 

So other than going off-topic and making bizarre comments, nothing of substance to add? 

 

[mfd101]

1 hour ago, Kiwiken said:

We had riots over a rugby tour during the apartheid era in South Africa. You would find NZ opinion pretty polarised on some subjects I believe moving Our Embassy would be one of them.

As always, the world is waiting breathlessly for NZ's decision.

[dexterm]

Here's the epilogue.

 

Kerryn Phelps claims Wentworth byelection win for 'the people of Australia who need a voice'

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/live/2018/oct/20/wentworth-by-election-live-results-liberal-dave-sharma-kerryn-phelps-exit-poll-latest-news-updates

 

Wonderful news.

 

The Australian byelection was probably fought more on local issues, but it  teaches the current right wing Australian government a lesson: 

 

Don't try to change established bipartisan Australia foreign policy on a whim, because the ex Ambassador to Israel whispered in your ear.

Don't bring a controversial country 9,000 miles away into Australian domestic politics, while at the same time risking real friendships and trade relations with your neighbors Indonesia and others.

Don't pander to local ethnic/religious groups and treat them like pawns assuming their allegiances are owed more to a foreign power than to Australia.

Don't treat the electorate like uninformed idiots in a preferential system of compulsory voting.

 

So all in all a bit of a covfefe, Morrison. I hope your days in power are numbered. The world is wising up.

 

 

 

 

 

[newatthis]

Thank you Wentworth voters for telling the Government that we are not American lackeys and Jerusalem is not a priority in Australian lives. 

[bristolboy]

On 10/16/2018 at 7:54 PM, Jingthing said:

Well I didn't support the "trump" move but he did it and the world didn't blow up. I really don't see what the big deal is now if other nations follow. It's extremely difficult to negotiate a two state solution either way. Whether embassies are in Jerusalem or not.

Sent from my Lenovo A7020a48 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

i guess it depends on how important it is for the USA to be seen as an honest broker.

[simple1]

11 hours ago, dexterm said:

Here's the epilogue.

 

Kerryn Phelps claims Wentworth byelection win for 'the people of Australia who need a voice'

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/live/2018/oct/20/wentworth-by-election-live-results-liberal-dave-sharma-kerryn-phelps-exit-poll-latest-news-updates

 

Wonderful news.

 

The Australian byelection was probably fought more on local issues, but it  teaches the current right wing Australian government a lesson: 

 

Don't try to change established bipartisan Australia foreign policy on a whim, because the ex Ambassador to Israel whispered in your ear.

Don't bring a controversial country 9,000 miles away into Australian domestic politics, while at the same time risking real friendships and trade relations with your neighbors Indonesia and others.

Don't pander to local ethnic/religious groups and treat them like pawns assuming their allegiances are owed more to a foreign power than to Australia.

Don't treat the electorate like uninformed idiots in a preferential system of compulsory voting.

 

So all in all a bit of a covfefe, Morrison. I hope your days in power are numbered. The world is wising up.

 

Lot more likely the electorate were upset with the removal of of their representative and PM, Turnbull, therefore voted for an Independent. IMO it was a bad decision as now we have a compromised minority ruling party at the whim of Independents and far right micro parties.

[BoganInParasite]

More than likely the Aus public will remove ScoMo and this govt before any embassey can be moved.

[anon537687643]

Lot more likely the electorate were upset with the removal of of their representative and PM, Turnbull, therefore voted for an Independent. IMO it was a bad decision as now we have a compromised minority ruling party at the whim of Independents and far right micro parties.

The “far right “ are the leadership of the Lib/Nat Gov , Nothing to do with crossbenchers!


Sent from my iPhone using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Morch]

15 hours ago, dexterm said:

Here's the epilogue.

 

Kerryn Phelps claims Wentworth byelection win for 'the people of Australia who need a voice'

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/live/2018/oct/20/wentworth-by-election-live-results-liberal-dave-sharma-kerryn-phelps-exit-poll-latest-news-updates

 

Wonderful news.

 

The Australian byelection was probably fought more on local issues, but it  teaches the current right wing Australian government a lesson: 

 

Don't try to change established bipartisan Australia foreign policy on a whim, because the ex Ambassador to Israel whispered in your ear.

Don't bring a controversial country 9,000 miles away into Australian domestic politics, while at the same time risking real friendships and trade relations with your neighbors Indonesia and others.

Don't pander to local ethnic/religious groups and treat them like pawns assuming their allegiances are owed more to a foreign power than to Australia.

Don't treat the electorate like uninformed idiots in a preferential system of compulsory voting.

 

So all in all a bit of a covfefe, Morrison. I hope your days in power are numbered. The world is wising up.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, local issues were more what this was about. Yet if one reads your rants, it would seem that the main dish on the menu was otherwise. Fancy that.

 

It's rather amusing for you to protest bringing the "controversial country" (got to love them odd labels) issue to domestic politics. Never noticed such objections, provided those raising such issues were supportive of your standing views. Then, apparently, things are defined along the lines of worthy moral position or some-such.

 

Same goes for with regard to pandering to "local ethnic/religious groups and treat them like pawns assuming their allegiances are owed more to a foreign power..." - which would correspond to the way you previously characterized Muslim voters expected attitude and reactions.

 

And still banging on that scaremongering drum? Anything of substance to support said assertions? About as believable as "the World is wising up" - I somehow doubt you speak for the "World", or that the "World" takes all that much interest in this episode.

 

[simple1]

2 hours ago, markaoffy said:

The “far right “ are the leadership of the Lib/Nat Gov , Nothing to do with crossbenchers!
Sent from my iPhone using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

Yes there are 4/5 creepy bastards, but don't forget OneNation and a few others who are also a total waste of space

[dexterm]

4 hours ago, Morch said:

 

Yes, local issues were more what this was about. Yet if one reads your rants, it would seem that the main dish on the menu was otherwise. Fancy that.

 

It's rather amusing for you to protest bringing the "controversial country" (got to love them odd labels) issue to domestic politics. Never noticed such objections, provided those raising such issues were supportive of your standing views. Then, apparently, things are defined along the lines of worthy moral position or some-such.

 

Same goes for with regard to pandering to "local ethnic/religious groups and treat them like pawns assuming their allegiances are owed more to a foreign power..." - which would correspond to the way you previously characterized Muslim voters expected attitude and reactions.

 

And still banging on that scaremongering drum? Anything of substance to support said assertions? About as believable as "the World is wising up" - I somehow doubt you speak for the "World", or that the "World" takes all that much interest in this episode.

 

The usual spin, deflection, hot air and personal flame.

[dexterm]

As I wrote above, Morrison's cynical musings about an embassy shift were merely a suggestion. Now we have become more aware of some of the possible foreign relations consequences if Morrison attempts to jump on the Trump bandwagon for zero benefit to Australia and a considerable downside risk.

 

One would hope he has now learned his lesson after this cheap stunt to conflate domestic politics in a byelection with international affairs.

 

Australia needs its closest neighbor far more than vice versa...for trade, to prevent people smuggling, joint defence, and as a buffer aganst Chinese expansion. Upsetting Indonesia would seriously undermine these areas of cooperation.

 

Indonesia's threats over Scott Morrison's Israel embassy remarks now out in the open

 

"Of course we will adjust our policy or our actions depending on the situation, but again I'll not even try to predict or decide what actions we will take."

 

In diplomatic terms, that is strong language.

 

Perhaps not as blunt as the reported text message exchange between Indonesian Foreign Minister Retno Marsudi and her Australian counterpart Marise Payne, in which Ms Payne was purportedly told the embassy issue, "will slap Indonesia's face" and, "will affect bilateral relations".

 

...and there's more...

 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-10-19/indonesia-defence-cooperation-with-australia-reviewed/10393950

[Odysseus123]

Morrison's days are numbered...

 

A cheap gimmick catering for the Woollahra and Dover Heights set.

 

It didn't work,anyway.

[Morch]

8 hours ago, dexterm said:

The usual spin, deflection, hot air and personal flame.

The usual nonsense one-liner when you can't counter points made.

 

[Morch]

8 hours ago, dexterm said:

As I wrote above, Morrison's cynical musings about an embassy shift were merely a suggestion. Now we have become more aware of some of the possible foreign relations consequences if Morrison attempts to jump on the Trump bandwagon for zero benefit to Australia and a considerable downside risk.

 

One would hope he has now learned his lesson after this cheap stunt to conflate domestic politics in a byelection with international affairs.

 

Australia needs its closest neighbor far more than vice versa...for trade, to prevent people smuggling, joint defence, and as a buffer aganst Chinese expansion. Upsetting Indonesia would seriously undermine these areas of cooperation.

 

Indonesia's threats over Scott Morrison's Israel embassy remarks now out in the open

 

"Of course we will adjust our policy or our actions depending on the situation, but again I'll not even try to predict or decide what actions we will take."

 

In diplomatic terms, that is strong language.

 

Perhaps not as blunt as the reported text message exchange between Indonesian Foreign Minister Retno Marsudi and her Australian counterpart Marise Payne, in which Ms Payne was purportedly told the embassy issue, "will slap Indonesia's face" and, "will affect bilateral relations".

 

...and there's more...

 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-10-19/indonesia-defence-cooperation-with-australia-reviewed/10393950

 

 

The same hypocritical stance presented on many a past topic - your objections to countries or politicians addressing issues pertaining to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict only comes up when such positions are not in line with your own. Otherwise, you actually tend to commend politicians doing so.

 

And the same hyped up scaremongering regarding Indonesia's supposed "response". Nothing in your several alarmist posts addresses the fact that relations and trade are a two-way street, meaning such a move is bound to effect Indonesia as well. Nothing in your alarmist posts which acknowledges the fact that Muslim countries failed to act on hot air issued after Trump's move. To assume that this would have been different would require more than your opinion.