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Thailand's universal welfare 'at risk'


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45 minutes ago, MaxYakov said:

Reminds me of the false advertising in Thailand (and everywhere):

 

Buy one, get one [not free].  (equals two for the price of one, not get one free, BTW)

 

Free healthcare? I don't think so. Means only no immediate out-of-pocket costs to the consumer. Somebody's paying - taxes (current generations) or debt (future generations). I don't think healthcare workers work for free and that healthcare equipment and consumables are free. Do you?

Of course there is no free healthcare its always paid for off-course by taxes. The question is do you feel that is the right thing or should it be like in the US where people die because they can't pay for a doctor. 

 

 

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On 10/17/2018 at 4:10 AM, Samui Bodoh said:

Hmm...

 

I was having a discussion a while back with my 20 year old niece, and she posited that Internet access ought to be considered a public utility such as water or electricity as it is no longer possible to function in the world without access. Initially, I argued with her, but now... I think she had a point.

 

Some questions to Members;

 

Is it possible to function in the modern world without access to the Internet?

Should Internet access be governed as a utility?

Should Internet access be a 'right' in the same manner as health care, electricity, water, etc?

 

 

You pay for utilities no?

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On 10/17/2018 at 7:10 AM, Samui Bodoh said:

Hmm...

 

I was having a discussion a while back with my 20 year old niece, and she posited that Internet access ought to be considered a public utility such as water or electricity as it is no longer possible to function in the world without access. Initially, I argued with her, but now... I think she had a point.

 

Some questions to Members;

 

Is it possible to function in the modern world without access to the Internet?

Should Internet access be governed as a utility?

Should Internet access be a 'right' in the same manner as health care, electricity, water, etc?

 

 

It's getting more difficult to go about daily life without internet based processes, I agree it should be a standard good quality utility available to all, paid for from general taxation.

 

Other countries already did this in the recent past.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Stargrazer9889 said:

I wonder how much the French, German, Italian, Spanish, and especially

the Greeks pay for their doctor visits?  Hmmm any good quality answers?

Geezer

Average Germans that have a job pay twice: 

1. By contributions to the health insurance funds, for their own health care, and 

2. by taxes, for the health care of the people that don't work at all. 

While group 1 is getting smaller and smaller, and group 2 is getting bigger and bigger. 

 

And that's the problem in Germany: 

Germans are not even asked for this kind of solidarity, they're forced into it. 

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4 hours ago, robblok said:

Of course there is no free healthcare its always paid for off-course by taxes. The question is do you feel that is the right thing or should it be like in the US where people die because they can't pay for a doctor. 

 

 

Why do you single out the USA? Most people in the USA seem to dying of fatal bullet wounds, horrific motor vehicle accidents, fatal heart disease, substance abuse, etc - not by a dearth of health care facilities or capabilities, but I digress.

 

People die in every country for any number of reasons. At least in the USA most people can afford to buy health insurance. Also, a hospital emergency room cannot refuse to provide medical care to someone including non-citizens who have no money and will probably not pay for it.

 

This is because the USA is relatively wealthy and people are much better off than most on the planet w/r health care. If someone cannot afford or get health insurance they can petition any number of programs including the so-called Affordable Care Act  (aka Obamacare) and get care for even pre-existing conditions. The payment for pre-existing conditions (as well as hospital treatment for foreign nationals) is subsidized by guess who?

 

If you think countries with single-payer (aka socialized) health care like Canada are better off, for example, ask Stefan Molyneux why he went to the USA to have his salivary gland cancer addressed. I know why, don't you?

 

As I stated on this thread HERE, does the existence and enforcement of a right imply that someone else even through the government through taxes and/or debt, has to pay for that right? Check the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights, not that I'm a big fan of the UN, but it's a nice wish-list. The question is who is willing to pay?

 

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2 minutes ago, MaxYakov said:

Why do you single out the USA? Most people in the USA seem to dying of bullet wounds, car accidents and heart failure - not by a dearth of health care facilities or capabilities, but I digress.

 

People die in every country for any number of reasons. At least in the USA most people can afford to buy health insurance. Also, a hospital emergency room cannot refuse to provide medical care to someone including non-citizens who have no money and will probably not pay for it.

 

This is because the USA is relatively wealthy and people are much better off than most on the planet w/r health care. If someone cannot afford or get health insurance they can petition any number of programs including the so-called Affordable Care Act  (aka Obamacare) and get care for even pre-existing conditions. The payment for pre-existing conditions (as well as hospital treatment for foreign nationals) is subsidized by guess who?

 

If you think countries with single-payer (aka socialized) health care like Canada are better off, for example, ask Stefan Molyneux why he went to the USA to have his salivary gland cancer addressed. I know why, don't you? 

 

I single out the USA because its actually barbaric, how it goes over there (for the poor). If you think the average poor person in the US gets better treatment then the average poor person in the Netherlands or Uk or Germany for instance then im sure you believe in Santa Claus too. 

 

I am a capitalist but i certainly believe in universal healthcare BUT everyone needs to pay for it. This is one of those things that is just humane. You can see judge a civilization by how it treats its sick. But I do feel that everyone even the poor should contribute. Back in my country everyone needs to pay and that is fair. One part is the same for everyone an other part is based on income. 

 

I am NOT saying the US does not have good medical care, it certainly does.. but only for those who can afford it. Otherwise your screwed.  In the Netherlands for instance we don't do all the real expensive US treatments because it would drain the funds too fast. That is the other side of public healthcare they can't spend too much on all kinds of experimental healthcare because it would drain the fund too fast.

 

Your statement that most people die of bullet wounds and such.. id say in the US just like in Europe most people die of old age. Though yea the US has far more gun violence then most first world countries. But Europe has more terrorism, not sure what is worse getting killed by someone shouting allah akbar or getting shot by a spree shooter with mental problems. The end result is the same.

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13 minutes ago, robblok said:

I single out the USA because its actually barbaric, how it goes over there (for the poor). If you think the average poor person in the US gets better treatment then the average poor person in the Netherlands or Uk or Germany for instance then im sure you believe in Santa Claus too. 

 

I am a capitalist but i certainly believe in universal healthcare BUT everyone needs to pay for it. This is one of those things that is just humane. You can see judge a civilization by how it treats its sick. But I do feel that everyone even the poor should contribute. Back in my country everyone needs to pay and that is fair. One part is the same for everyone an other part is based on income. 

 

I am NOT saying the US does not have good medical care, it certainly does.. but only for those who can afford it. Otherwise your screwed.  In the Netherlands for instance we don't do all the real expensive US treatments because it would drain the funds too fast. That is the other side of public healthcare they can't spend too much on all kinds of experimental healthcare because it would drain the fund too fast.

 

Your statement that most people die of bullet wounds and such.. id say in the US just like in Europe most people die of old age. Though yea the US has far more gun violence then most first world countries. But Europe has more terrorism, not sure what is worse getting killed by someone shouting allah akbar or getting shot by a spree shooter with mental problems. The end result is the same.

I do believe in Santa Claus. He's called Uncle Sam, however, and loves to throw money around (the world). Maybe we should call him Crazy Uncle Sam the Barbarian and Spendaholic in the future? :stoner:

 

You said: "I am a capitalist but i certainly believe in universal healthcare BUT everyone needs to pay for it."

 

I don't know what your country is, but how can people who are being subsidized by the government (getting welfare) and have no income pay for their own health care? Are you going to tell us now that there no such people in your country?

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On 10/17/2018 at 6:40 AM, robblok said:

Yes funding is always a problem, everyone wants healthcare but

 

Anyway whoever is in power next will have to either fund the universal healthcare a lot better or limit access (i prefer option one) because the way its going the system will break down.

You know how people is? If you tell them coca cola and mc donalds is bad for them, what they do? If you tell them alcohol is bad for you, what they do? 

 

And if you tell them insurance is a good idea, and you should have one, what they do? 

 

With people I mean those who should not do, and should have! Not those who is able to provide for themselves and live healthy. 

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45 minutes ago, MaxYakov said:

I do believe in Santa Claus. He's called Uncle Sam, however, and loves to throw money around (the world). Maybe we should call him Crazy Uncle Sam the Barbarian and Spendaholic in the future? :stoner:

 

You said: "I am a capitalist but i certainly believe in universal healthcare BUT everyone needs to pay for it."

 

I don't know what your country is, but how can people who are being subsidized by the government (getting welfare) and have no income pay for their own health care? Are you going to tell us now that there no such people in your country?

People who have no money get welfare (do they let them die on the streets in the US ?) and they have to pay for healthcare from their welfare package. 

 

Maybe your a true capitalist and prefer the poor to die so you don't have to pay for it. I would say that the difference between civilized and not civilized. 

 

Personally i like a mix of capitalism and socialism. 

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48 minutes ago, Hummin said:

You know how people is? If you tell them coca cola and mc donalds is bad for them, what they do? If you tell them alcohol is bad for you, what they do? 

 

And if you tell them insurance is a good idea, and you should have one, what they do? 

 

With people I mean those who should not do, and should have! Not those who is able to provide for themselves and live healthy. 

That is why you make health insurance mandatory because many people just can't think for themselves. At least then they pay for it already and use it when they need it.

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50 minutes ago, robblok said:

People who have no money get welfare (do they let them die on the streets in the US ?) and they have to pay for healthcare from their welfare package. 

 

Maybe your a true capitalist and prefer the poor to die so you don't have to pay for it. I would say that the difference between civilized and not civilized. 

 

Personally i like a mix of capitalism and socialism. 

"Personally i like a mix of capitalism and socialism.

 

You had better because the so-called capitalists (the producers) have to pay for the the social programs. I understand that the People's Republic of China (which is actually a dictatorship) reportedly operates on the capitalism model. So does the USA, BTW. But you think the USA is "barbaric". What would you know about the USA? Really?

 

Is your country part of NATO? Has your country paid for any of the current or past US Navy Fleet Ballistic Missile submarines? Is your country receiving foreign aid in any from from the US?

 

PS: Many, if not most, of the people dying on the streets in the USA are doing so by their own choice, often of drug overdoses from drugs that were probably paid for by socialist programs. Many are mentally ill and others are getting infected by diseases from living on the street. All of them can and do go to hospital emergency rooms and get "free" (paid for by others) treatment.

 

A lot of USA's wealth goes toward subsidizing millions of illegal migrants for both healthcare and education, cheating all the legitimate citizens out of more benefits. Is that civilized? Maybe it's over-civilized a bit?

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1 hour ago, MaxYakov said:

"Personally i like a mix of capitalism and socialism.

 

You had better because the so-called capitalists (the producers) have to pay for the the social programs. I understand that the People's Republic of China (which is actually a dictatorship) reportedly operates on the capitalism model. So does the USA, BTW. But you think the USA is "barbaric". What would you know about the USA? Really?

 

Is your country part of NATO? Has your country paid for any of the current or past US Navy Fleet Ballistic Missile submarines? Is your country receiving foreign aid in any from from the US?

 

PS: Many, if not most, of the people dying on the streets in the USA are doing so by their own choice, often of drug overdoses from drugs that were probably paid for by socialist programs. Many are mentally ill and others are getting infected by diseases from living on the street. All of them can and do go to hospital emergency rooms and get "free" (paid for by others) treatment.

 

A lot of USA's wealth goes toward subsidizing millions of illegal migrants for both healthcare and education, cheating all the legitimate citizens out of more benefits. Is that civilized? Maybe it's over-civilized a bit?

I think how they handle healthcare in the US is barbaric.. I don't think the US is barbaric. (big difference). Maybe you should open your eyes a bit more and be a little bit more critical about your own country.  Other countries handle this far better than the US.. hard to admit probably.

 

My country has paid enough, and is settling refugees from countries where the US started wars. So we are doing enough. Maybe the US should take refugees in after they destroy a country.

 

Right people dying in the US do so of their own free will.. blame them.. good. Do you seriously believe this ? Just look up how many veterans end up on the streets after serving their country. 

 

 

 

 

 

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25 minutes ago, robblok said:

I think how they handle healthcare in the US is barbaric.. I don't think the US is barbaric. (big difference). Maybe you should open your eyes a bit more and be a little bit more critical about your own country.  Other countries handle this far better than the US.. hard to admit probably.

 

My country has paid enough, and is settling refugees from countries where the US started wars. So we are doing enough. Maybe the US should take refugees in after they destroy a country.

 

Right people dying in the US do so of their own free will.. blame them.. good. Do you seriously believe this ? Just look up how many veterans end up on the streets after serving their country. 

 

 

 

 

 

I am very critical of my country - one reason I don't live there. I voted with an airplane seat. Where are you living these days? Identify your country or ST*U!

 

I'm tired of asking you questions and your not answering them. You country is probably settling a great number of economic migrants, not refugees from war.

 

Being a veteran does not give one immunity from bad decisions in life, insanity, drug addiction and infectious diseases, sorry. I must say, though, that if any healthcare is "barbaric" it would be that implemented by the Veterans's Administration (VA) which has scandalous corruption and incompetence.

 

Two years ago I had cancer and It would have been fatal had I gone to the VA for treatment (or to Canada as a Canadian citizen), but it was the "socialized medicine" known as Medicare (which I have to pay for every month just for membership) that paid for 80% of my costs in the 10s of thousands of US dollars. Another example of US healthcare barbarism, I suppose? I had to pony up 20% of the cost. I could have borrowed that amount, but I paid for it out of my savings. Utterly barbaric!

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7 hours ago, robblok said:

You are a funny guy, the Dutch have a far lower public debt than the Americans and free healthcare. Its you guys who are out of touch. 105 % for the US in its 56% for the Dutch..

 

SO next time you spread misinformation check your facts.

Healthcare is not free in Holland Rob.

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10 minutes ago, MaxYakov said:

I am very critical of my country - one reason I don't live there. I voted with my airplane seat. Where are you living these days? Identify your country or ST*U!

 

I'm tired of asking you questions and your not answering them. You country is probably settling a great number of economic migrants, not refugees from war.

 

Being a veteran does not give one immunity from bad decisions in life, insanity, drug addiction and infectious diseases, sorry. I must say, though, that if any healthcare is "barbaric" it would be that implemented by the Veterans's Administration (VA) which has scandalous corruption and incompetence.

I live in Thailand mate I am Dutch.

 

As for those people from warzones being economic migrants.. quite possible a large group (and of course I am against it im all for settlement in the region) I don't agree with everything my goverment does this is one of those things I disagree about.

 

I will send you a post by the message system as we are really going OT too much and might get in trouble. 

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4 minutes ago, wabothai said:

Healthcare is not free in Holland Rob.

Nowhere is it free, the tax payer pays for it but its not private healthcare where you need to pay for it yourself. Its a public healthcare system with its own problems but IMHO far better than the American system.

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