Thai Airways investigate "deadhead pilot" delay drama

[Sir Swagman]

A friend of mine was on this flight. It was a bunfight with no information of any version of the truth being told to passengers (normal with most airlines, but mandatory with TG). There is a contractual obligation for deadheading or ‘duty travel’ crew to have first class seats with many airlines. This was the case with TG when I worked for them. Regularly carrying paxing pilots to London, (they were going to do simulator training in the UK, in uniform when disembarking and showing as operating crew on the general declaration to avoid visa requirements!) and other cities due to aircraft changes. This was a code share flight with Swissair (I pity the people that bought tickets expecting a Swiss airframe and crew). Operations management should have blocked the seats as not available to commercial, but....I would bet they relied on Swissair to not sell all the assigned code share seats. As commented in another post there are very rare occasions when a passenger pays for first with Thai. If that is still the case, and I would wonder why it isn’t given the shocking state of the general product on offer, to ‘bump’ a passenger is no big deal. Otherwise, if it had been me, the pilots in question would have been sent back to the hotel to get a later flight. That of course may have exposed the visa ‘rort’ that was undoubtedly involved here. Always assuming of course that the reported story is factual and does involve crew and not some puffed-up self-important local demanding this and that at the last minute, as I experienced a few times. For whatever record there is, they were invariably disappointed.

[khunPer]

3 hours ago, Cereal said:

1) A deadhead crew member is on duty. It is quite possible they will be expected to work shortly, or at times, almost immediately after arrival.

A Switzerland-Thailand flight is about 10-11 hours, doubt they can pick-up active duty immediately, or shortly, after landing in Thailand (presumably Bangkok) – fatigue level, fit for flight, legal duty limit; passive flight time is counted as duty – but of course, I'm not counting of any Red Bull-effect like used by Thai bus- and minivan drivers...????

[thedemon]

21 minutes ago, Sir Swagman said:

A friend of mine was on this flight. It was a bunfight with no information of any version of the truth being told to passengers (normal with most airlines, but mandatory with TG). There is a contractual obligation for deadheading or ‘duty travel’ crew to have first class seats with many airlines. This was the case with TG when I worked for them. Regularly carrying paxing pilots to London, (they were going to do simulator training in the UK, in uniform when disembarking and showing as operating crew on the general declaration to avoid visa requirements!) and other cities due to aircraft changes. This was a code share flight with Swissair (I pity the people that bought tickets expecting a Swiss airframe and crew). Operations management should have blocked the seats as not available to commercial, but....I would bet they relied on Swissair to not sell all the assigned code share seats. As commented in another post there are very rare occasions when a passenger pays for first with Thai. If that is still the case, and I would wonder why it isn’t given the shocking state of the general product on offer, to ‘bump’ a passenger is no big deal. Otherwise, if it had been me, the pilots in question would have been sent back to the hotel to get a later flight. That of course may have exposed the visa ‘rort’ that was undoubtedly involved here. Always assuming of course that the reported story is factual and does involve crew and not some puffed-up self-important local demanding this and that at the last minute, as I experienced a few times. For whatever record there is, they were invariably disappointed.

 

90% conjecture and the 10% of facts are wrong facts.

[Thian]

6 hours ago, nong38 said:

Thai airways is not run for the convenience of passengers its run for the convenience of their employees and Thai Government officials, passengers come last should tell you something about who to fly with and who to give a miss to.

Exactly, the staff is very arrogant and the foodportions are tiny and not nice at all.

 

These pilots all deserve to get sacked....they even dare to do this in Swiss!

[scorecard]

2 hours ago, malibukid said:

hate this airline, they offered no assistance to me when disabled after surgery in the U.S. recently. hope they go bankrupt. pathetic service and no compensation offered, typical.  they never replied to my complaint.

Join the club regarding no response to complaints.

 

I sent several complaints over many years, never one reply. I also called and somehow the call never ended up with a complaints person until on one occasion the person answering said 'we don't have a complaints department, we don't need it'.

 

I called again the next day and eventually spoke to a quite young man who responded 'my aunty has not arrived yet (something like 10.30 am), I asked what are her working hours? Response 09.00 am to xxx (forget), so I asked well why is she not here now? Response 'but she has to take her children to school first'. I responded can you please take my name and number and ask her to call me back. Boy's response 'cannot my aunty has a policy she doesn't return calls.'   Give up. 

 

[Longcut]

On 10/19/2018 at 2:36 PM, blackhorse said:

On 10/19/2018 at 2:22 PM, ChrisY1 said:

With 1st class full, were the majority RTA travellers? .....apparently, there were Business seats available but of course, that's never going to be good enough for Thai Air pilots.
Be interesting if further details come out.

Of course it wouldn't good enough for any pilot if they need proper sleep.

Per FAA regulation. A pilot is on duty while in transit (deadhead) to another duty station. It does not count toward their 10 hours of uninterrupted rest even if they sleep. They will still require 10 hours of crew rest before being allowed to perform in-flight duties.

 Not sure if ThaiAirways conforms to the same regulations. Pretty sure they do though.

[Felt 35]

Hmm...wonder who the two pilots was...….

[starky]

3 hours ago, scorecard said:

 

So another lecture, and as said before most of this is already well known to passengers (CUSTOMERS).

 

And doesn't change the fact that this incident is a disgrace to both Thai Airways and it's less than intelligent aircrew. 

 

If Thai does have a policy that deadhead crew are entitled to first class, and to be honest that wouldn't surprise me, given that cabin crew on the same airline after 5 years service can continuously refuse their schedule (I went to Paris last year besides it's a bit cold this time of the year, no thanks give me a another flight/route, I prefer xxxx xxxx, then would it not be sensible to accept the business seats and lodge a complaint the next day, rather then cause an incident and upset customers who pay big money?

 

 

Your not bad at assumption yourself. Many have said there isn't a first class on this plane which may or may not be true. But besides company policy what proof do you have that those that were asked to move were full fare paying passengers and not on cheap tickets, upgrades, or frequent flyer bonuses? 

[connda]

On 10/19/2018 at 2:07 PM, webfact said:

"Trollydollysaysit" online states:  "A deadhead is an airline crew member, a pilot or a cabin crew, who is assigned to fly to a particular destination to assume a duty. ... However if the flight is full, a revenue passenger or a non-rev crew cannot bump off a deadhead".

In typical Thai fashion is seems that the airline is incapable of planning far enough in advance to schedule seats for their own crews.  And pilots must be in First Class?  <laughs>  How about business class or even better, economy? 

[Sydebolle]

The Captain-in-Command is in charge of the aircraft and whatever is going on while he is on board. 
He and the two <deleted> need to be fired on the spot, license revoked for life and made to pay for the bill which includes the two bumped passengers including a handy compensation, the costs of the delay in Zurich, all the missed connections out of Bangkok, possible redisposition of another aircraft as the incoming plane was more than overdue. By experience we're talking here easily hundred thousands of US Dollars. 

The sales departments with TG in Switzerland will have a field day as this over-confident show of force empties the anyhow-difficult-to-sell-business-and-first-class product of Thai which sucks, compared to all the fine competition trailing the same route. 

Good on TG; its time to get the crew back to where they belong - and that is working up a product for the passenger, and less for the more-than-self-confident little cockpit clowns! 

[bowerboy]

UThey were probably on points bookings.

 

I flew First Class to Frankfurt on Thai on the A380 recently for just 90k points and about $400 in taxes. In that case it would of been hard to argue against being downgraded. 

 

On a a side note Bill Heineke was sat next to me on the return flight.

 

Even in first though you still have to use the same incredibly poor choice of movies and programs on the IFE. Bed and food was good but service very poor compared to first on other airlines.

[bowerboy]

The other thing we are forgetting here is that on MOST Thai Airways flights, the business class seats are not even proper lie down seats. They only recline to about 130 degrees and are very short.

 

if they did need to sleep then I cannot blame them for refusing to go to business....on their older aircraft (which is most of them) their business class is schockingly bad and many of the seat cushions are old and uncomfortable with the metal framework exposed and digging into you at various spots.

 

on these older aircraft, it is definitely nothing special to fly business...

[seancbk]

15 hours ago, bowerboy said:

UThey were probably on points bookings.

 

I flew First Class to Frankfurt on Thai on the A380 recently for just 90k points and about $400 in taxes. In that case it would of been hard to argue against being downgraded. 

 

On a a side note Bill Heineke was sat next to me on the return flight.

 

Even in first though you still have to use the same incredibly poor choice of movies and programs on the IFE. Bed and food was good but service very poor compared to first on other airlines.

 

I would have paid for First just to have the chance to talk with Bill about business in Thailand.

[oldrunner]

THAI PRIDE,, no more needs to be said.

[Knowsitlike]

9 hours ago, seancbk said:

 

I would have paid for First just to have the chance to talk with Bill about business in Thailand.

I sat next to him at one of his hotels where he was drinking wine couple of months ago, looked to be a genuinely cool guy

[ncc1701d]

On 10/20/2018 at 5:31 AM, thedemon said:

 

90% conjecture and the 10% of facts are wrong facts.

Everything swagman says is on point.

[ncc1701d]

On 10/20/2018 at 8:52 AM, Sydebolle said:

The Captain-in-Command is in charge of the aircraft and whatever is going on while he is on board. 
He and the two <deleted> need to be fired on the spot, license revoked for life and made to pay for the bill which includes the two bumped passengers including a handy compensation, the costs of the delay in Zurich, all the missed connections out of Bangkok, possible redisposition of another aircraft as the incoming plane was more than overdue. By experience we're talking here easily hundred thousands of US Dollars. 

The sales departments with TG in Switzerland will have a field day as this over-confident show of force empties the anyhow-difficult-to-sell-business-and-first-class product of Thai which sucks, compared to all the fine competition trailing the same route. 

Good on TG; its time to get the crew back to where they belong - and that is working up a product for the passenger, and less for the more-than-self-confident little cockpit clowns! 

You have no idea what you are talking about. 

 

The Captain on duty must follow the procedures. At worst he will be in breach of the law and at best in breach of company policy if he does not - even if that means following their company manuals which are all approved by Thai aviation authorities. Short of an actual emergency, they can’t just demand whatever they want. 

 

In breach of the law is the only way he can lose his license. Thai airways has no authority to “revoke” their license. That would be like saying whoever you work for can revoke your drivers license. They will all be under investigation by Thai airways. They could fire or demote him (both extremely unlikely), retrain him to what is supposed to happen under their policy. 

 

The full facts of this incident will probably never be known to the general public and there are so many variables as to what could have happened. So blurting out anti pilot sentiment based on pure speculation shows your immaturity.

 

The intelligent responses in this thread have been from people who have worked in the industry. 

[starky]

On 10/20/2018 at 7:52 PM, Sydebolle said:

The Captain-in-Command is in charge of the aircraft and whatever is going on while he is on board. 
He and the two <deleted> need to be fired on the spot, license revoked for life and made to pay for the bill which includes the two bumped passengers including a handy compensation, the costs of the delay in Zurich, all the missed connections out of Bangkok, possible redisposition of another aircraft as the incoming plane was more than overdue. By experience we're talking here easily hundred thousands of US Dollars. 

The sales departments with TG in Switzerland will have a field day as this over-confident show of force empties the anyhow-difficult-to-sell-business-and-first-class product of Thai which sucks, compared to all the fine competition trailing the same route. 

Good on TG; its time to get the crew back to where they belong - and that is working up a product for the passenger, and less for the more-than-self-confident little cockpit clowns! 

What the <deleted> are you talking about flipper? No one got bumped for a start and the flight was only one hour overdue on arrival. Sure this thing wasn't handled correctly but all airline policy is the same. It's not a Thai airways thing you goose. Leave the facts to those that know what they are actually talking about.

[starky]

On 10/20/2018 at 4:09 PM, Sir Swagman said:

A friend of mine was on this flight. It was a bunfight with no information of any version of the truth being told to passengers (normal with most airlines, but mandatory with TG). There is a contractual obligation for deadheading or ‘duty travel’ crew to have first class seats with many airlines. This was the case with TG when I worked for them. Regularly carrying paxing pilots to London, (they were going to do simulator training in the UK, in uniform when disembarking and showing as operating crew on the general declaration to avoid visa requirements!) and other cities due to aircraft changes. This was a code share flight with Swissair (I pity the people that bought tickets expecting a Swiss airframe and crew). Operations management should have blocked the seats as not available to commercial, but....I would bet they relied on Swissair to not sell all the assigned code share seats. As commented in another post there are very rare occasions when a passenger pays for first with Thai. If that is still the case, and I would wonder why it isn’t given the shocking state of the general product on offer, to ‘bump’ a passenger is no big deal. Otherwise, if it had been me, the pilots in question would have been sent back to the hotel to get a later flight. That of course may have exposed the visa ‘rort’ that was undoubtedly involved here. Always assuming of course that the reported story is factual and does involve crew and not some puffed-up self-important local demanding this and that at the last minute, as I experienced a few times. For whatever record there is, they were invariably disappointed.

Correct except no one got bumped. Oh and you don't run any airlines and maybe the deadheading pilots couldn't wait for the next flight out of Zurich. Oh oh and maybe just maybe there was no rort at all and the pilots involved were on company business like the thousands of other pilots that do the same thing worldwide everyday.

Edited October 22, 2018 by starky

[Sydebolle]

19 hours ago, starky said:

What the <deleted> are you talking about flipper? No one got bumped for a start and the flight was only one hour overdue on arrival. Sure this thing wasn't handled correctly but all airline policy is the same. It's not a Thai airways thing you goose. Leave the facts to those that know what they are actually talking about.

It would help if you could read; two revenue pax got BUMPED from their paid P-class seats.

The delay was directly related to the childish behaviour of those arrogant clowns and no, not all airline policies are same. I was the opening station manager (ZTHKSTG) of TG in Zurich in the early 80s, having worked before for Swissair and Lufthansa; I certainly know the domino effect of a delay.  While Zurich deals with fog, snow and de-icing procedures in winter, more often than liked resulting in delays, lost slots etc. I never heard of anything like revolting captains. Leaving two hours late and landing only one hour late means also, that they were lucky and the flight was cleared immediately into an empty slot; airspace via Villach (Austria, where Asian destinations are mostly routed through) is usually loaded with heavy traffic. 

Once only the TG chairman showed up with eight "helpers" - without booking. Who wants to discuss with the chairman; me certainly not; hence I rebooked all six TG revenue first class passengers with Swissair (which left 50 minutes earlier than TG).
The passengers were grateful for the white lie (of a non-existing heavy delay), Swissair was happy for the revenue and the country manager at that time had to explain, why I transferred those first class passengers to Swissair; not at interline conditions but ticket face value. 

There is only one way to deal with such kiddies; teach 'em a lesson like Lee Kuan Yew did in his earlier days when SQ pilots went on strike. 

 

[manarak]

Articles have appeared in Thai press about the matter with more details about what happened exactly.

 

Due to an infrigement of my rights to post quotes and links bestowed by the Berne Convention for the Protection of Literary and Artistic Works (Thailand is a signatory), I can't post a link to the article, you will find it if you search on Google for "pilots mum keep THAI about delay told to Zurich".

 

There is also this article:

https://liveandletsfly.boardingarea.com/2018/10/19/thai-airways-first-class-captain/

 

some important facts can be learned from these 2 articles:

- none of the paying passengers had originally booked first class

- pilots' labor contracts guarantee first class when it is available

 

So it appears the pilots weren't the only ones to blame - upgraded passengers were quite unflexible about giving up the unexpected freebie they just got from Thai ZH staff.

 

It's also kind of sad Thai gets bad press for this, because the situation was caused by the airline wanting to give better seats to passengers.

 

This type of situation could potentially be defused by simply waiting until boarding to upgrade passengers.

[starky]

2 hours ago, Sydebolle said:

It would help if you could read; two revenue pax got BUMPED from their paid P-class seats.

The delay was directly related to the childish behaviour of those arrogant clowns and no, not all airline policies are same. I was the opening station manager (ZTHKSTG) of TG in Zurich in the early 80s, having worked before for Swissair and Lufthansa; I certainly know the domino effect of a delay.  While Zurich deals with fog, snow and de-icing procedures in winter, more often than liked resulting in delays, lost slots etc. I never heard of anything like revolting captains. Leaving two hours late and landing only one hour late means also, that they were lucky and the flight was cleared immediately into an empty slot; airspace via Villach (Austria, where Asian destinations are mostly routed through) is usually loaded with heavy traffic. 

Once only the TG chairman showed up with eight "helpers" - without booking. Who wants to discuss with the chairman; me certainly not; hence I rebooked all six TG revenue first class passengers with Swissair (which left 50 minutes earlier than TG).
The passengers were grateful for the white lie (of a non-existing heavy delay), Swissair was happy for the revenue and the country manager at that time had to explain, why I transferred those first class passengers to Swissair; not at interline conditions but ticket face value. 

There is only one way to deal with such kiddies; teach 'em a lesson like Lee Kuan Yew did in his earlier days when SQ pilots went on strike. 

 

I stick to my original statement. No one got bumped. 2 passengers who got upgraded got returned to their original class of seats. Not one report has ever stated they were full fare paying passengers. As for airline policy regarding deadheading pilots and their priority regarding fare paying passengers hasn't changed. 

[Thaidream]

 

 

 

the fact is that Thai Airways is losing millions of baht each year.  An incident like this is bad publicity.  If any of the crew or pilots cared about the Company or the passengers- the pilots would have seen First is filled and gone to sit in Business which had open seats.  They could have complained to the Union when they got back to Bangkok.  Until the culture of Thai Airways changes- they will continue to lose money.