Saudi Arabia admits Khashoggi died in consulate, fires two senior officials

[Morch]

7 hours ago, sirineou said:

Someone  reacted with the "confused reaction" at the above post, I wonder which part he/she found confusing,

Was it the part that all humans are or should be moral beings and have a moral obligation,

or was it that the US government represent humans and as such by extension has a moral obligation also?

I hope I should not have to explain the above concept but I would be happy to, 

for a fee.

 

I think there's a difference between seeing the World in term through ideal lenses (as in "should be") and realistic one (as it is). Striving toward the former is alright, but conflating between the two doesn't contribute much to such efforts.

 

As for assumed moral obligation - I'd venture that different world views (such as religions, ideologies) may possess different sets of morals.  

[Morch]

6 hours ago, Basil B said:

Maybe the King did not know about it, he claims to be a reformist, possibly he is, but surround by ultra conservatives of the old guard dead set against any reform.

 

If so this could be to the kings advantage, could get rid of a few of them behind the tragic goings on in the Istanbul and push through reforms to appease the countries calling for improvements of human rights in the kingdom.

 

As far as I'm aware, the supposed reformist was the Crown Prince, MbS, rather than the King.

[Srikcir]

10 minutes ago, Morch said:

I'd venture that different world views (such as religions, ideologies) may possess different sets of morals.

In the case of Saudi Arabia and Turkey, both have large majority Muslim Sunni's. So religious morals should be the same if not very similar.

Which is why I find the alleged dismemberment of Jamal's body an understated issue between Turkey and Saudi Arabia as it was not only done within Turkey but a violation of the Islamic faith. As if there weren't enough reasons to cause divisions within the Middle East.

[Morch]

5 hours ago, sirineou said:

 I agree with you first point, I misquoted you and I am sorry, 

You did say Might beats right  rather than "might makes right" .

I blame it to my speed trading rather than the fact that I can , have being and most likely be again a jerk but I hope a lovable one LOL.

As far as your second point , He needed the divorce certificate to marry , and as far as I know the Saudis are not in the habit of murdering   journalists so  he should not be suspicious that they would murder him. He called the embassy and they told him that the certificate was not ready, then they called him and told him that it was ready at the same day that a saudi team arrived in Turkey , IMO a coordinated operation by the Saudis.

I don't think blaming the victim is a viable  argument , especially since the victim had no other choice other than not marrying the woman he loved, and no reason to think they will murder him in his own embassy at a foreign country.

 

As to your third point ,  this not a done deal, not by a long shot, This is not American policy it might be Trump's policy, but Trump is not America, he is the head of the executive branch of government but there is also a legislative and a  judicial branch, and then  there is the fourth estate .

There are legal and  political considerations that would Trump (pun intended) Trump's policy. This is not an issue of "solitary Saudi journalist. " this is an issue of the dissemination of free ideas around the world ,and the moral standing of America , what litle remains of it. 

   No my friend not done by a long shot, look at all the cancellations to the Saudi economic conference,  comments by Lindsey Graham, And Saudi coverup attempts who know this is not over because Trump spoke. 

 But as much as I disagree with you on these points, I must say you made your  points eloquently, politely and to the point , which suggest a level of sophistication in your thinking that I appreciate. I promise to read your replies more carefully in the future. 

 

 

The Saudis been harassing (to put it mildly) journalists for a long time. There were several links detailing such events posted on these topics. In fact, Khashoggi's own history would make him well aware of the risk, even if it wasn't obvious. According to an interview with his fiancee (I think it even appeared on the first few OP's), they discussed the possibility of something going wrong. Assuming he was totally naive or unaware of how things were is totally out of line with the man's character and experience.

 

This isn't about "blaming the victim". More to do with pointing out that walking into a lion's den, one may expect ending up as dinner. As for "no other choice" - that's incorrect. They could have been married elsewhere, changed citizenship and whatnot. He made a bad choice - no reason to "blame" him for it, no need to overlook it either.

 

As for asserting this is "Trump's policy" rather than America's - Saudi transgressions related to civil and human rights been going on for a long while. Way longer than Trump is in politics. And many of these transgressions' magnitude eclipse the current incident. That didn't stop past US administrations from looking the other way, whitewashing and continuing to cooperate and aid SA. Past Presidents may have been more diplomatic about it, fair enough. The same would apply for the argument regarding legislative and judicial branches. And, of course, it isn't solely the US that's into that - quite a few other countries as well.

[Brunolem]

12 hours ago, stevenl said:

I heard that claim before, but as far as I can tell the recordings, audio, came from Khashoggi's watch.

They don't!

The watch only has a limited range to connect with the outside, and can certainly not do it from the consul's office where Khashogghi was ultimately brought...

[Morch]

4 minutes ago, Srikcir said:

In the case of Saudi Arabia and Turkey, both have large majority Muslim Sunni's. So religious morals should be the same if not very similar.

Which is why I find the alleged dismemberment of Jamal's body an understated issue between Turkey and Saudi Arabia as it was not only done within Turkey but a violation of the Islamic faith. As if there weren't enough reasons to cause divisions within the Middle East.

 

I was aiming more at differences between Western "liberal" (without the political context) thinking and others. Or between religious vs. Secular thinking. Or Democracy vs. Communism. That sort of thing.

 

With regard to what you mentioned, I doubt it will be a central argument in the dealings between the countries. Same doubts as for it being much of an "issue" with regard to how Muslims (of whichever nationality) react to things.

[Brunolem]

20 minutes ago, Srikcir said:

In the case of Saudi Arabia and Turkey, both have large majority Muslim Sunni's. So religious morals should be the same if not very similar.

 

Saudi's version of islam is wahhabism.

 

Wahhabism is to sunni islam what the inquisition was to catholicism...a very devious and brutal version of the faith it supposedly represents.

 

Turkey on the other hand leans on the side of the muslim brotherhood, which has been crushed in Egypt, a close ally of Saudi Arabia.

[Srikcir]

2 minutes ago, Brunolem said:

muslim brotherhood

Muslim brotherhood is a radicalization. It is not a religious faction opposed to Sunni practice of Islam.

The Inquisition was a radicalization of Catholicism, but it was not opposed to Catholicism.

Your comparison is at best confusing.

[Brunolem]

1 minute ago, Srikcir said:

Muslim brotherhood is a radicalization. It is not a religious faction opposed to Sunni practice of Islam.

The Inquisition was a radicalization of Catholicism, but it was not opposed to Catholicism.

Your comparison is at best confusing.

Please read my post again...

 

I wrote that wahhabism is similar to inquisition...not the muslim brotherhood!

[stevenl]

5 minutes ago, Srikcir said:

Muslim brotherhood is a radicalization. It is not a religious faction opposed to Sunni practice of Islam.

The Inquisition was a radicalization of Catholicism, but it was not opposed to Catholicism.

Your comparison is at best confusing.

Agreed with you here, but also your statement 'both Sunni so comparable mirals' is at best confusing.

[Srikcir]

19 minutes ago, Morch said:

I doubt it will be a central argument in the dealings between the countries.

From a Western ideological viewpoint it shouldn't be but between Turkey and Saudi Arabia it certainly can give at least leverage to any resolution between Turkey and S.A. over Jamal's murder within Turkey.

If one considers S.A.'s intervention in Yemen in part justified by a moral prerogative driven by Sunnism versus Shiitism, S.A. potentially loses a moral high ground, albeit not by Western standards.

[Morch]

Just now, Srikcir said:

From a Western ideological viewpoint it shouldn't be but between Turkey and Saudi Arabia it certainly can give at least leverage to any resolution between Turkey and S.A. over Jamal's murder within Turkey.

If one considers S.A.'s intervention in Yemen in part justified by a moral prerogative driven by Sunnism versus Shiitism, S.A. potentially loses a moral high ground, albeit not by Western standards.

 

As said, I don't think this specific card will actually be played much in the dealings between SA and Turkey, and I doubt as to the public outrage this specific point would garner among Muslims. So far, things seem to be focused on the political angle.

[Brunolem]

23 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

So far, things seem to be focused on the political angle.

It is only political, except until now for Trump and his handlers of the military-industrial complex who can't fathom the idea of losing a few bilions.

 

For the West in general, this murder provides an opening to put pressure on the Saudis, especially MBS, and let them know that there are limits on how far they can go (Yemen, Hariri, the shaking up of at the Ritz Carlton last year and so on).

 

Ultimately, there will probably not be any sanctions, other than symbolic, and that's not because of the oil (after all SA dearly need the money from its exports), but because of the (petro)dollar, since oil exports could very well be invoiced in other currencies...

 

[wayned]

What should happen, since Trump obviously has no intention of launching an independent investigation, is that the UK and France, being permanent members of the UN security consul, should call an emergency meeting of the consul and have them launch a UN investigation of the reporter's death and put the Saudi charade to bed once and for all.  What a joke!

[Srikcir]

1 hour ago, wayned said:

have them launch a UN investigation

And cannot the US being a permanent member veto such an investigation?

[wayned]

42 minutes ago, Srikcir said:

And cannot the US being a permanent member veto such an investigation?

Yep, they sure can veto it, but if it is brought out in that international forum would Trump have the gonads to do it?  It sure would make him look as if he is part of the conspiracy to hide the facts.

[Jack100]

Seems all that religious butchering of animals that they get taught from an early age   ...  comes in handy later .......

[Brunolem]

4 hours ago, wayned said:

Yep, they sure can veto it, but if it is brought out in that international forum would Trump have the gonads to do it?  It sure would make him look as if he is part of the conspiracy to hide the facts.

There is no need for an investigation since the Turks have held all the information from day one!

 

The Turks are now playing poker while the others play politics, knowing that Turkey holds all the major cards, and can torpedoe their wrong assumptions whenever it fills like it.

[Morch]

10 hours ago, wayned said:

What should happen, since Trump obviously has no intention of launching an independent investigation, is that the UK and France, being permanent members of the UN security consul, should call an emergency meeting of the consul and have them launch a UN investigation of the reporter's death and put the Saudi charade to bed once and for all.  What a joke!

 

8 hours ago, wayned said:

Yep, they sure can veto it, but if it is brought out in that international forum would Trump have the gonads to do it?  It sure would make him look as if he is part of the conspiracy to hide the facts.

 

I do not see either the UK or France particularly eager to spearhead such an initiative. Both been rather subdued on the matter, mostly content to let Trump take the front seat on this one. Both countries got major trade interests involved, and doubt their in a rush to put them (or future ones) at risk.

 

However, even if such a move materializes, the path to such a proposal being accepted would require none of the other three permanent members raise objections. And, again, all have current and future interests involved. There could be a whole lot of grounds for "disagreement" (IMO, no one wants to go there) on procedural, legal, and wording issues. If all that is sorted, then the investigation itself could be easily rendered useless, by defining it's scope and authority. Let's say we passed this hurdle as well - take a long breath, until findings are published, another media circus, and probably ending with a resolution condemning SA and calling on it to behave.

 

Trump wouldn't be the one sitting on the UNSC, but rather his newly appointed UN ambassador or Haley's deputy, and a slim (no pun intended) chance of Pompeo taking the stage. Any of them would say whatever is needed. To remind, that's the same Trump who keeps going on about "no collusion", "witch hunt" and a whole lot of other stuff. 

[Morch]

4 hours ago, Brunolem said:

There is no need for an investigation since the Turks have held all the information from day one!

 

The Turks are now playing poker while the others play politics, knowing that Turkey holds all the major cards, and can torpedoe their wrong assumptions whenever it fills like it.

 

You do not actually know that Turkey got "all the information". The narrative of it having "all the information" is a bit like playing poker - maybe they do, maybe they don't. And Turkey can't actually overplay its hand, because when push comes to shove, this isn't really the Thursday night poker game.

[manarak]

the evidence against Saudi Arabia is piling up...

 

they sent home all non-Saudi staff of the consulate for the day,

sent in a team of 15 people ahead of Khashoggi... 15 people !! including a doctor with a bonesaw?

they booked 3 hotel nights for their team, but they flew home after just 1 night.

 

what was their brilliant plan?

it looks like they wanted to torture Khashoggi and interrogate him.

I'm unsure what fate they had planned for Khashoggi after the interrogation (3 days?).

 

If they had planned to kill him, why not do it in a less obvious manner? Or was Khashoggi's information so important they had to risk it?

 

how could they think nobody would notice Khashoggi's disappearance?

what if he had come with a bodyguard?

what if his fiancée was waiting outside?

what if he streamed the audio to third parties during all that time?

lol

 

the Saudis may have had the intention to kill Khashoggi later, but I am indeed inclined to believe the death was accidental at that moment.
Not only didn't they have time to interrogate him, but also a mess was made, forcing them to repaint some rooms. Maybe Khashoggi put up a fight when he understood what they were up to, maybe got his hands on one of his captors' weapons.

I can't believe professional "security agents" couldn't get a 60 year old man under control unless they really totally botched the job like compleat amateurs.

Or there could have been a struggle and a heart attack... but then wouldn't they simply have pretended accidental death?

 

in any case, this story is surreal.

how can an intelligence service, or at least people calling themselves that, proceed in such a way ??

the mind boggles.

 

if the story wasn't so obvious and the evidence so overwhelming, one could have believed in a false flag op to jeopardize the US' regional policy.

 

 

 

[manarak]

one thing that always returns in my thoughts about this case is the Apple watch that allegedly recorded everything.

 

wouldn't Khashoggi have told the Saudis about recording everything to the cloud at the first sign of trouble? A deterrent is only viable if the enemy knows about it...

 

or is the more believable scenario that the Turks have bugged every inch of this consulate?

 

or did Khashoggi intentionally escalate the incident to later be in a position to use the recording, but the situation slipped out of control?

Edited October 21, 2018 by manarak

[wayned]

Trump is slowly changing his "tune" on the credibility of the Saudi explanation and I'm sure that he is being pushed by the Brits, France and Germany that are demanding an independent investigation and the announcement by the Turks that the gory details will be released in a meeting on Tuesday.  Is it time for MBS to bend over and kiss his ass goodbye?

[wayned]

He has also installed new tires on the bus and is warming up the engine for Kushner.  He has said that Kushner and MBS are just young men doing their jobs and are good friends.

[Brunolem]

11 hours ago, Morch said:

 

You do not actually know that Turkey got "all the information". The narrative of it having "all the information" is a bit like playing poker - maybe they do, maybe they don't. And Turkey can't actually overplay its hand, because when push comes to shove, this isn't really the Thursday night poker game.

We will know that for sure on Tuesday, when Erdogan has said that all their information will be released.

 

Until now, every bit of information Turkey has released has proved to be accurate.

 

What has not been much discussed yet are the more than 20 phones calls exchanged between the goons and Saudi Arabia during the event in the consulate, including (the very latest news) one call between Khashoggi and MBS, the latter urging him to let himself be taken to Saudi Arabia...

 

We will know more soon...

[Brunolem]

8 hours ago, manarak said:

one thing that always returns in my thoughts about this case is the Apple watch that allegedly recorded everything.

 

wouldn't Khashoggi have told the Saudis about recording everything to the cloud at the first sign of trouble? A deterrent is only viable if the enemy knows about it...

 

or is the more believable scenario that the Turks have bugged every inch of this consulate?

 

or did Khashoggi intentionally escalate the incident to later be in a position to use the recording, but the situation slipped out of control?

The Apple watch scenario has been debugged again and again...not enough range to reach outside...

 

It seems obvious that the Turks had bugged the consulate, which is why they are reluctant to release their recordings all at once.

 

On top of that, since they knew something big was coming, they had probably reenforced their surveillance, having agents with mikes and cameras everywhere.

[Brunolem]

8 hours ago, manarak said:

the evidence against Saudi Arabia is piling up...

 

they sent home all non-Saudi staff of the consulate for the day,

sent in a team of 15 people ahead of Khashoggi... 15 people !! including a doctor with a bonesaw?

they booked 3 hotel nights for their team, but they flew home after just 1 night.

 

what was their brilliant plan?

it looks like they wanted to torture Khashoggi and interrogate him.

I'm unsure what fate they had planned for Khashoggi after the interrogation (3 days?).

 

If they had planned to kill him, why not do it in a less obvious manner? Or was Khashoggi's information so important they had to risk it?

 

how could they think nobody would notice Khashoggi's disappearance?

what if he had come with a bodyguard?

what if his fiancée was waiting outside?

what if he streamed the audio to third parties during all that time?

lol

 

the Saudis may have had the intention to kill Khashoggi later, but I am indeed inclined to believe the death was accidental at that moment.
Not only didn't they have time to interrogate him, but also a mess was made, forcing them to repaint some rooms. Maybe Khashoggi put up a fight when he understood what they were up to, maybe got his hands on one of his captors' weapons.

I can't believe professional "security agents" couldn't get a 60 year old man under control unless they really totally botched the job like compleat amateurs.

Or there could have been a struggle and a heart attack... but then wouldn't they simply have pretended accidental death?

 

in any case, this story is surreal.

how can an intelligence service, or at least people calling themselves that, proceed in such a way ??

the mind boggles.

 

if the story wasn't so obvious and the evidence so overwhelming, one could have believed in a false flag op to jeopardize the US' regional policy.

 

 

 

The Saudis simply got complacent because the world had given them a free pass for all their rogue actions until now.

 

Devastating war on Yemen: free pass, help from the US and not a peep from the others

 

Blockade of Qatar: free pass

 

Kidnapping of Hariri, a sitting prime minister: free pass

 

Kidnapping and torturing of wealthy Saudis in order to extract ransom: free pass

 

Why then should have it been different for a lowly journalist?

 

[wayned]

• He was told that the paperwork that he needed would be ready that day.
• All of the Turkish Consulate staff were given the day off.
• 15 Saudis flew in to take their place in the Consulate, at least one with a bone saw.

 

• He came to the Embassy and picked a fight with all of the Saudis,  He came to a "bone saw" fight and all that he had was bones.

 

• His body has now disappeared, "given to a collaborator for disposal"

 

AND

 

• MBS didn't know any of this was happening!
• If you believe that I have some beach front property in the Atchafalaya Basin in Louisiana that I'll sell you real cheap. 

[Morch]

56 minutes ago, Brunolem said:

We will know that for sure on Tuesday, when Erdogan has said that all their information will be released.

 

Until now, every bit of information Turkey has released has proved to be accurate.

 

What has not been much discussed yet are the more than 20 phones calls exchanged between the goons and Saudi Arabia during the event in the consulate, including (the very latest news) one call between Khashoggi and MBS, the latter urging him to let himself be taken to Saudi Arabia...

 

We will know more soon...

 

Well, again - what "we will know", and what "Turkey knows" are two different things. I assume not all details will be released, specifically those inconvenient to Turkey or not in line with it's interests. No reason to expect full transparency on this one.

 

And no, so far not every bit of information released had proved to be accurate. There were quite a few versions as to how information was gathered (most bogus), and a few versions of what happened inside the embassy.

 

If anything, the information being dripped or leaked in bits might tell something about interests being taken care of. Let's see what they release on Tuesday - I'll add popcorn to today's shopping list.

[Opl]

Removed from office: General Assiri, well known to the French Ministry of Defense, is also the man who received satellite images that France delivers to Riyadh to help Saudi pilots target pro-Iranian rebels in Yemen. It is also he who defends French interests in the negotiation on the sale of a military observation satellite to Riyadh. 

A French company and an American one remain on the short list for the sale. So now ?

Edited October 22, 2018 by Opl