Denied entry to Thailand!

[simoh1490]

1 minute ago, Misty said:

I've asked tax professional about this and they say that's not correct for this type of income.  Yes, income earned through external investments - say an offshore investment portfolio or a property located somewhere else. But the tax professionals all say: income earned from working while living in Thailand is taxable in Thailand.  Doesn't matter where the income is paid.  So if you live and work online in Thailand, and you get paid in an account in Hong Kong, Singapore, London, the UK, they say it is taxable in Thailand (if you are a tax resident). 

 

If you know of any tax professionals that say differently, believe me, I would really like to know. I'd save a lot on Thai tax if that is correct.

 

 

The key to what you wrote is, tax residency. I agree that if you are tax resident in Thailand then your income from work for that tax year is taxable in Thailand. BUT, in order for that to happen you'd have to have a work permit, you couldn't for example simply work without a work permit and earn income otherwise you'd be in violation of your visa and its rules.

 

Retirees who live in Thailand earn income from overseas, pensions and investment income etc, that income is subject to the transfer and tax rules relating to current tax year, as I mentioned previously.

[Misty]

2 hours ago, Sheryl said:

I was referring exclusively to digital nomad work. Not employed by a Thai company, income coming from out of the country, working online.

 Yes, can appreciate that. But would the Revenue & Labour Dept go along with it if I shut down my Thai company, turn in my work permit and go for another type of visa - say retirement?  My work would be the same.  I would be a digital nomad.

[Misty]

Just now, simoh1490 said:

The key to what you wrote is, tax residency. I agree that if you are tax resident in Thailand then your income from work for that tax year is taxable in Thailand. BUT, in order for that to happen you'd have to have a work permit, you couldn't for example simply work without a work permit and earn income otherwise you'd be in violation of your visa and its rules.

 

Retirees who live in Thailand earn income from overseas, pensions and investment income etc, that income is subject to the transfer and tax rules relating to current tax year, as I mentioned previously.

I understood the rules for tax residency to involve how many days per year you live here. Nothing to do with whether you have a work permit.

[lkv]

 

@Misty

 

And by the way, tax proffesionals or any sort of "professionals" over here have a big question mark as far as I am concerned.

 

At the end of the day, it's irrelevant, if they want to screw you, they will, regardless of any laws.

 

I don't know if you have noticed but laws are quite relative in Thailand.

[Naam]

4 minutes ago, Misty said:

I've asked tax professional about this and they say that's not correct for this type of income.  Yes, income earned through external investments - say an offshore investment portfolio or a property located somewhere else. But the tax professionals all say: income earned from working while living in Thailand is taxable in Thailand.  Doesn't matter where the income is paid.  So if you live and work online in Thailand, and you get paid in an account in Hong Kong, Singapore, London, the UK, they say it is taxable in Thailand (if you are a tax resident). 

 

If you know of any tax professionals that say differently, believe me, I would really like to know. I'd save a lot on Thai tax if that is correct.

 

 

Quote

But the tax professionals all say: income earned from working while living in Thailand is taxable in Thailand. 

a logical conclusion ...but extremely difficult to enforce. if you pay Thai taxes on your income generated as a "digital nomad" then you haven't done your homework.

[Misty]

4 minutes ago, lkv said:

Ok then, so let's just say then that I have retired early, and all the money spent in Thailand in the last previous year was spent from savings transferred from my overseas account ????

Right.  Just to be clear, what I've been addressing is the legal issues regarding a digital nomad working online here, not the situation you describe.

[Sheryl]

8 minutes ago, Misty said:

 Yes, can appreciate that. But would the Revenue & Labour Dept go along with it if I shut down my Thai company, turn in my work permit and go for another type of visa - say retirement?  My work would be the same.  I would be a digital nomad.

If you have a Thai company you need the appropriate visa and WP.

 

I was referring to self-employed digital nomads working solo whose income is from abroad.

[Misty]

2 minutes ago, Naam said:

a logical conclusion ...but extremely difficult to enforce. if you pay Thai taxes on your income generated as a "digital nomad" then you haven't done your homework.

I think I have, but am happy to have any tax code or other legal document to show otherwise.  I own and work for a Thai company, but my work is not different in structure than the so-called "digital nomad."  I'd love to know how it's legal and not a problem.  If so, could easily get a different visa and just be a digital nomad. 

[lkv]

2 minutes ago, Misty said:

Right.  Just to be clear, what I've been addressing is the legal issues regarding a digital nomad working online here, not the situation you describe.

Well "im not working here". I am retired in my mid 30s, "vely" rich man, and all my savings are prior 2011, when I moved to beautiful Thailand.

 

Can they prove otherwise?

[Misty]

1 minute ago, Sheryl said:

If you have a Thai company you need the appropriate visa and WP.

 

I was referring to self-employed digital nomads working solo whose income is from abroad.

Understood.  I have a company because all professional legal & tax advice I have received says I have to in order to be legal.  If that is not true, I can do the same as the digital nomad.  I have no need for the Thai company other than to work here legally.

[Sheryl]

Just now, Misty said:

Understood.  I have a company because all professional legal & tax advice I have received says I have to in order to be legal.  If that is not true, I can do the same as the digital nomad.  I have no need for the Thai company other than to work here legally.

So you have no employees? And all income is obtained from online work you do on your own, from non-Thai sources?

 

If so then it is true you could indeed skip the company and WP as far as that goes. But unless you are aged 50 or above, or married to a Thai, you'd still have a dilemma in terms of visa.

[Misty]

1 minute ago, lkv said:

Well "im not working here". I am retired in my mid 30s, "vely" rich man, and all my savings are prior 2011, when I moved to beautiful Thailand.

 

Can they prove otherwise?

Talking about what's legal, of course, not whether or not anyone can prove it. I remember all kinds of situations where people justified it by saying "just let them prove it."  From my observation those haven't worked out well in the long run. But you can do what you feel works for you of course.

[lkv]

Just now, Misty said:

Talking about what's legal, of course, not whether or not anyone can prove it. I remember all kinds of situations where people justified it by saying "just let them prove it."  From my observation those haven't worked out well in the long run. But you can do what you feel works for you of course.

The climate of Thailand encourages cutting corners, as some poster was saying a few days ago on a thread.

 

Doing things legally in the example of a solo digital nomad working online would only open up a can of worms, attract more scrutiny, and then they themselves would not be respecting the very own laws that they preach.

 

No thanks.

[Misty]

Just now, Sheryl said:

So you have no employees? And all income is obtained from online work you do on your own, from non-Thai sources?

 

If so then it is true you could indeed skip the company and WP as far as that goes. But unless you are aged 50 or above, or married to a Thai, you'd still have a dilemma in terms of visa.

I don't need to have employees.  And yes, all the income is obtained from online work.  And I am old enough for a retirement visa or could go another route too.  Please can you tell me who I can consult regarding it being legal to convert to being a digital nomad?  I really would like to pursue that.  But unfortunately although Chiang Mai IO may think it's okay, unfortunately the only professional advice I've received is that this is not okay from several areas of Thai law.

[simoh1490]

7 minutes ago, Misty said:

I understood the rules for tax residency to involve how many days per year you live here. Nothing to do with whether you have a work permit.

In the first instance yes, you can't be tax resident unless you stay here (or almost any country) unless you live here for 180 days or more - some countries have variants to this such as the UK which says you're tax resident if you live in your own home there for 30 days or more each tax year but for this conversation the 180 day rule applies.

 

We then come to the subject of income: assuming you are tax resident in Thailand by virtue of the 180 day rule there's then a question of how and where does the income arise. If it arises in Thailand, a work permit will be required. If it arises outside of Thailand and it's pension or investment income then that income is not taxable in Thailand unless it is transferred here during the year it is earned - in practice the Thai Revenue does not seek to tax this income from pensioners etc.

 

Finally we have the example described by the poster above, he appears to be tax resident in Thailand, earns income offshore which is not remitted here in the year it was earned yet he is taxable here, so say, and he pays tax on it yet he doesn't have a work permit.....that one is one big mystery and my vote very firmly says that income is not taxable, either that or he is in violation of his visa which clearly is not a work permit.

 

 

[Misty]

2 minutes ago, lkv said:

The climate of Thailand encourages cutting corners, as some poster was saying a few days ago on a thread.

 

Doing things legally in the example of a solo digital nomad working online would only open up a can of worms, attract more scrutiny, and then they themselves would not be respecting the very own laws that they preach.

 

No thanks.

I understand your point of view. However, I've never been about cutting corners, and this has served me well.

[lkv]

3 minutes ago, Misty said:

I understand your point of view. However, I've never been about cutting corners, and this has served me well.

Not in Thailand it won't. This is not your home country, with solid laws applied equally and fairly.

 

You open that door thinking you're doing the right thing, and you will be milked and milked.

[Misty]

1 minute ago, lkv said:

Not in Thailand it won't. This is not your home country, with solid laws applied equally and fairly.

Yes, I appreciate that but so far not cutting corners has worked well for me. Perhaps our experiences have been different.  However, I have lived and worked in Thailand for a long time.  Nearly as long as I lived in my home country, and I could qualify for a retirement visa based on my age.

[simoh1490]

If you wanted the definitive view on this subject you could always ask Price Waterhouse Coopers, they have an office of Sukhumvit.

[lkv]

9 minutes ago, simoh1490 said:

If you wanted the definitive view on this subject you could always ask Price Waterhouse Coopers, they have an office of Sukhumvit.

Yep, and they publish literature as well on this. Page 9 clarifies it.

 

I agree, professional tax advice should be obtained from professional companies.

 

thai-tax-2017-18-booklet-en.pdf

[Dick Crank]

Go back to hanoi, pay the $140 for 15 days and return to thailand with the 20k baht in hand if the visa is unmarked?

 

once the visa is given I don't believe immigration can refuse entry unless a regulation is broken at the border. Also, when asked for purpose if visit verbal response should be "holiday" and nothing more.

 

pay at a little extra to fly into another Thai airport as the immigration lady is going to lose face if you reappear. She may take you into the back room and do you from the rear with a black wooden baton.

[Naam]

4 hours ago, Misty said:

I think I have, but am happy to have any tax code or other legal document to show otherwise.  I own and work for a Thai company, but my work is not different in structure than the so-called "digital nomad."  I'd love to know how it's legal and not a problem.  If so, could easily get a different visa and just be a digital nomad. 

som na na

 

joke aside, a digital nomad is not caught by Thai tax radar. establishing, owning and working for a company was your idea. but i'm sure you had your own good reasons to proceed with the formation of a company.

[Naam]

4 hours ago, lkv said:

Yep, and they publish literature as well on this. Page 9 clarifies it.

 

I agree, professional tax advice should be obtained from professional companies.

 

thai-tax-2017-18-booklet-en.pdf

all these professional companies are describing the present Thai "tax practice" without interpretation of the actual Thai "tax law", e.g. nowhere in Thai tax laws and regulations it is specified that "bringing income to Thailand from an earlier year bla-bla yada yada is tax free". that's how it is handled .....  but not according to the law.

 

let's hope that this practice prevails for a long time!

[Klaus77]

You need to have multyentry they visa .. and you need to do that in your country.  You can't not go and back without this!!understand?  They ask to you money because when you do a multyentry they visa you need to have 6000 euro in bank and pay 150 Euro for this type of visa ..With single entry visa you can't go out and come back again

[JackThompson]

10 hours ago, Misty said:

Tax professionals I've talked to all agree that this rule does not apply to income earned from work that is done while a tax resident in Thailand.  Unfortunately this rule only seems to apply to offshore investment type income, or other income earned while you were working in another country.

Yes - best to do such things through a foreign-corporation, and collect equity/dividends/etc, rather than a "salary."

[lkv]

5 hours ago, Naam said:

all these professional companies are describing the present Thai "tax practice" without interpretation of the actual Thai "tax law", e.g. nowhere in Thai tax laws and regulations it is specified that "bringing income to Thailand from an earlier year bla-bla yada yada is tax free". that's how it is handled .....  but not according to the law.

 

let's hope that this practice prevails for a long time!

Oh I love challenges.

 

Section 41 of the Thai Revenue Code states:

 

Section 41 A taxpayer who in the previous tax year derived assessable income under Section 40 from an employment, or from business carried on in Thailand, or from business of an employer residing in Thailand, or from a property situated in Thailand shall pay tax in accordance with the provisions of this Part, whether such income is paid within or outside Thailand.

A resident of Thailand who in the previous tax year derived assessable income under Section 40 from an employment or from business carried on abroad or from a property situated abroad shall, upon bringing such assessable income into Thailand, pay tax in accordance with the provisions of this Part.

Any person staying in Thailand for a period or periods aggregating 180 days or more in any tax year shall be deemed a resident of Thailand.

 

HOWEVER

 

A resident° of Thailand earning income from sources outside Thailand does not bring his foreign paid income into Thailand in the same calendar year of earning income. He must not pay income tax (The Revenue Department Ruling No. Gor Kor 0802/696 - 1 May 1987)

 

° a resident of Thailand is defined as per section 41 of the Revenue code.

[Dick Crank]

On October 21, 2018 at 7:55 AM, JackThompson said:

It is very unlikely to be asked for other visa-types.  If you have a Non-B + work-permit, that should satisfy them. 

 

In reality, everyone - including the Imm guys - know that no one needs to carry around a wad of cash any more.  Some like to do it, which is fine - but it's not necessary.  This is simply just an old rule from a bygone age, that makes it easy to deny-entry to someone they want to deny in any case. 

 

That said, I currently have a Non-O ME, and just in case, I haven't cashed in the travelers checks I bought to cover my backside, when entering on a TR-Visa.

Travelers checks are a check, not cash.

 

unless you get a sophisticated io, which the thread poster did not, your probably better off following the rules and carrying cash.

 

anyone know if you can leave for cambo if refused, or do you have to return to point of origin?

 

will start carrying the cash when I fly in from the states in the future, my flight is quite long and expensive. Never been asked to see money in over 7 years though.

[simoh1490]

12 hours ago, Naam said:

som na na

 

joke aside, a digital nomad is not caught by Thai tax radar. establishing, owning and working for a company was your idea. but i'm sure you had your own good reasons to proceed with the formation of a company.

I'm betting the OP is a Brit and has copied the UK Ltd company model as his basis for a work vehicle, perhaps not the best move - using an umbrella company in HK might have been better.

[lkv]

8 hours ago, simoh1490 said:

I'm betting the OP is a Brit and has copied the UK Ltd company model as his basis for a work vehicle, perhaps not the best move - using an umbrella company in HK might have been better.

Such a large expense to set up a local Thai company and to invite more scrutiny.

 

And eventually, you get fed up with it, and want to shut it down, and you fork out another estimated 25K baht just to close it properly.

 

When one could invoice his clients via HKG tax free legally and for much lower setup costs.

[Naam]

15 hours ago, lkv said:

A resident° of Thailand earning income from sources outside Thailand does not bring his foreign paid income into Thailand in the same calendar year of earning income. He must not pay income tax (The Revenue Department Ruling No. Gor Kor 0802/696 - 1 May 1987)

none of the "professional" consulting companies mentions / cites the 21 year old ruling. if it was still prevailing instead of the one below they would have included it in their tax advisory booklets.

 

Quote

March 12, 2014

Taxpayers are classified into “resident” and “non-resident”. “Resident” means any person residing in Thailand for a period or periods aggregating more than 180 days in any tax (calendar) year. A resident of Thailand is liable to pay tax on income from sources in Thailand as well as on the portion of income from foreign sources that is brought into Thailand.

 

http://www.rd.go.th/publish/6045.0.html