Just Received Some Bad News For US Citizens. No More Income Affidavits.

[Mike Teavee]

10 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

I/m not so sure that is the case- if the Thai Imm had evidence of fraud why didn't they notify the  US Embassy- there is an FBI unit attached to the Embassy. Instead- the Thai imm appears to want the letter for everyone.  I suspect there are other reasons for all this and it has to do with a lack of communication between Embassies UK/US and Thai imm.

TI wouldn't have any evidence, the IO would ask for proof of what was on the form & either it didn't exist at all (So it couldn't be shown) or it had different numbers (so you would have to be a moron to show it).

 

Even if somebody did show invalid docs they could just say they were missing something... & even if they didn't, the IO wouldn't know to (or how to) raise it to the FBI so would just send them on their way telling them to come back when they had the correct documentation.

 

IF you hand-on-heart believe that nobody abused the system I've got a bridge for sale.

 

Edited November 1, 2018 by Mike Teavee

[Thaidream]

12 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

IF you hand-on-heart believe that nobody abused the system I've got a bridge for sale.

Mike- I have no doubt that some people lied and abused the system-however- I do not think the letters were stopped because of this- I believe there  was a real lack of communication and it could have been corrected by a proper negotiation in which each side gave a little and came to a satisfactory conclusion which would have involved the continuance of the letter with Thai imm then asking a representative sample of applicants for added proof.  If I can figure out  the profile of the  people most likely to offend- I am sure both the Embassy and Thai imm can do the same.

 

As it stands now- I am disappointed with both the Uk/US Embassy for  not bringing together a representative sample of citizens- allowing them to make recommendations on how to proceed based upon their representative experiences- Instead they simply threw out the bath water with the baby And said in A  very  un diplomatic statement- NO and HELL No. I don't like the feel of it and I doubt either does Thai imm

[jmd8800]

It is easy to blame things on fraud and corruption here in Thailand but you know all of this could be a result of something like software upgrades for immigration computer systems. Maybe there needs to be a place in the software to declare how each person from every different country "proves" their income and so the Thai immigration asked each embassy how they validated these statements. And since some embassies have made it clear they never validated anything but the signature, they could not give Thai Imm an answer that fit the need in the software because they don't validate income.

 

There could be any numbers of reasons why this situation has come to pass. And since we are not privy to the conversation it is useless to try and affix blame.

[Thaidream]

1 minute ago, jmd8800 said:

There could be any numbers of reasons why this situation has come to pass. And since we are not privy to the conversation it is useless to try and affix blame.

Agreed- but then people come together and understand the other's point of view and limitations- normally a compromise can be found. I honestly believe there is to quote the movie- 'A failure to communicate." and we, the people, are  left to either sort it out or be the victims of the 'system'.

[OJAS]

34 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

I suspect there are other reasons for all this and it has to do with a lack of communication between Embassies UK/US and Thai imm.

I agree 100% with you that the US & UK embassies have behaved despicably in this matter. But at least they have, for better for worse, come out and said that they can't comply with Immigration's validation requirements. But where do the other embassies stand on this matter? Are they now prepared to validate their documentary income confirmations in accordance with Immigration's requirements? If I were one of their nationals and relying on such a document for my next annual extension application, I would personally find their deafening wall of silence on the validation point at the present time extremely worrying. So my firm advice to all such non-American and non-British nationals would be to check specifically with their embassies whether they are now meeting Immigration's validation requirements since these individuals might otherwise find themselves issued with a piece of paper which turned out to be completely worthless in practice when they presented it at their local immigration office as part of their next extension of stay application.

[DogNo1]

Maybe TI just decided to stop taking people's word that they received the specified income amount and to require proof which is completely reasonable from my point of view.  It means more work for the immigration officers but necessitates no change in the wording of the requirement which now allows the maximum flexibility to retirees.  Remarks attributed to embassy employees and TI officials do not necessarily mean that the retirement income proof requirement will be changed.  

[JackThompson]

1 hour ago, moontang said:

I think half the letters were lies...more in Chiang Mai...I frequently heard people joke about it after a few beers.

Those people are nuts.  That charge could get you a trip to Levenworth (federal prison) - no fun, I've heard.

[fforest1]

Folks whats happening is no accident or miscommunication....Its exactly how they want things to happen....Its pretty clear they want less and less westerners in Thailand...If they wanted more westerners there would not be a new visa crackdown about every 12 to 18 months sense 2010.....

 

Were almost at the top of the visa food chain now...So the next crackdown they should be messing with the 400,000/800,000 deposit in some way,with some new Bs rules or regulations.....

 

The only people left then to be smug and look down on others will be the elite visa holders...lol  

Edited November 1, 2018 by fforest1

[JackThompson]

36 minutes ago, jmd8800 said:

And since some embassies have made it clear they never validated anything but the signature, they could not give Thai Imm an answer that fit the need in the software because they don't validate income.

The letters, themselves, made that clear.  This wording was not a recent discovery by TI.  Those asked for backup-proof report that IOs pointed out the clause - same as happened to me at amphoes, with the same clause, on my "Affirmation of Freedom to Marry" doc.  From my perspective on TI, I suspect they felt that our embassies were cutting them out of potential agent "action" from less-wealthy expats. 

 

Maybe other "stat-doc" embassies will just let TI reject what was always accepted before (like the USA should have done), or perhaps only certain nation's nationals are being targeted.  The last possibility is the most concerning - especially given what is happening between the USA and China, right now.  We probably won't have a clue until stat-docs created in 2019 by other nations' embassies are tested (assuming they keep providing them after that point).  If they are accepted, a diplomatic-circus should begin in earnest.

[Pattaya46]

38 minutes ago, fforest1 said:

Folks whats happening is no accident or miscommunication....Its exactly how they want things to happen....Its pretty clear they want less and less westerners in Thailand...If they wanted more westerners there would not be a new visa crackdown about every 12 to 18 months sense 2010.....

No. It's pretty clear that.... they changed absolutely nothing !

Also I don't remember any crackdown concerning expats in the last 10 years I was there ,

but maybe I become too old to notice... 

[JimmyJ]

7 hours ago, namatjira said:

What was not fair is that by use of the affidavits issued some stayed with no 65 k a month and no 800 k deposited.

again, this is the reason why all this has come about

 

I wonder what part of the current situation was caused by continual posts like this appearing in Thaivisa Forums?

 

Perhaps a bigger cause than what you state was the issue?

 

 

Edited November 1, 2018 by JimmyJ

[JLCrab]

Well I'm going to bypass as to why all this 65K baht per month income affidavit has come down -- this is what my plans are as of now:

This month I will start a direct SWIFT 65+K baht transfer from my US bank to my Bangkok Bank account. The test transfer has already gone through. There is that SWIFT fee but I bring via ATM or Bangkok Bank ACH transfer that much into Thailand each month anyway. While nothing has been proposed, I think this is the most likely scenario for continuation of the 65K per month income route:

 

IMM looks at your passbook and sees the 65+K monthly Xfer with International XFER code. Next?

If not the above, I am starting to make plans to deposit 800K in a Thai bank but to me that money is sunk cost. I may investigate the Thailand Elite either 5-year or 20-year which is also a sunk cost. Maybe the Elite will make changes of residence easier as I get older.

Lastly I am investigating the O-A in USA but, the more I look at it, I want my trips back to USA to be enjoyable not -- even if only every 2 years -- a crazy dash to get documents and appear in person in Thai Embassy Washington DC or consulate elsewhere.

So I guess -- now that I am extended through near end of 2019 -- this is plan B++

Edited November 1, 2018 by JLCrab

[Larryst]

I think the most problem is. Since the U.S. won't issued income affidavits after 31 December. Will the Thai Immigration accept your bank statements & info. Will they accept printed ones from online? Will they accept the SSA verification letter of benefits or other letters of annuities? Has anyone used them instead of the income affidavits? Has anyone contacted SSA to verify they will have direct deposits next year to Thai banks? Instead of posting scenarios. I plan on doing my 90 day check in and show them my bank statements and letters. Then I will find out, what actions I should do in the future. Maybe members posting should just go into immigration and show their documents and then post what would be accepted and what is not accepted.  

[Mike Teavee]

45 minutes ago, Larryst said:

I think the most problem is. Since the U.S. won't issued income affidavits after 31 December. Will the Thai Immigration accept your bank statements & info. Will they accept printed ones from online? Will they accept the SSA verification letter of benefits or other letters of annuities? Has anyone used them instead of the income affidavits? Has anyone contacted SSA to verify they will have direct deposits next year to Thai banks? Instead of posting scenarios. I plan on doing my 90 day check in and show them my bank statements and letters. Then I will find out, what actions I should do in the future. Maybe members posting should just go into immigration and show their documents and then post what would be accepted and what is not accepted.  

You can try & full marks for doings so, but I doubt any "Office Level" staff have any information yet.

 

A better approach might be to attend the meeting on 7th November mentioned a few pages back [Perhaps somebody could re-post the details, I'm off to work now]...

 

EDIT: Meeting is is Udon Thani... 

Just got his in an STEP email.

 

 

 

The Consular Section of the U.S. Embassy in Bangkok is pleased to provide services in Udon Thani.

 

Date: 7 November 2018
Time:  12:00pm – 3:00pm  
Venue:  Centara Hotel & Convention Centre Udon Thani
Address: 277/1 Prajaksillapakhom Road, Amphur Muang, Udon Thani 41000, Thailand
Hotel phone: +66 (0) 4234 3555

E-mail: [email protected]

 

 

 

Edited November 2, 2018 by Mike Teavee

[mogandave]

You can try & full marks for doings so, but I doubt any "Office Level" staff have any information yet.
 
A better approach might be to attend the meeting on 7th November mentioned a few pages back [Perhaps somebody could re-post the details, I'm off to work now]...
 
 
 
 

One thing I miss about working is not having to mess with any of this...

[mogandave]

Well I'm going to bypass as to why all this 65K baht per month income affidavit has come down -- this is what my plans are as of now:

This month I will start a direct SWIFT 65+K baht transfer from my US bank to my Bangkok Bank account. The test transfer has already gone through. There is that SWIFT fee but I bring via ATM or Bangkok Bank ACH transfer that much into Thailand each month anyway. While nothing has been proposed, I think this is the most likely scenario for continuation of the 65K per month income route:
 
IMM looks at your passbook and sees the 65+K monthly Xfer with International XFER code. Next?

If not the above, I am starting to make plans to deposit 800K in a Thai bank but to me that money is sunk cost. I may investigate the Thailand Elite either 5-year or 20-year which is also a sunk cost. Maybe the Elite will make changes of residence easier as I get older.

Lastly I am investigating the O-A in USA but, the more I look at it, I want my trips back to USA to be enjoyable not -- even if only every 2 years -- a crazy dash to get documents and appear in person in Thai Embassy Washington DC or consulate elsewhere.

So I guess -- now that I am extended through near end of 2019 -- this is plan B++

I imagine once you figure out how to get the documents the rest is cake.

I believe you can apply through the mail.

[Mike Teavee]

2 minutes ago, mogandave said:

 

One thing I miss about working is not having to mess with any of this...

 

Lol, no I work in Singapore so you could argue it's worse as not only do I need to do my Non-O for Thailand (Thanks to them clamping down & grilling people who enter numerous times on Visa Exempt) + have to do my Employment Pass for Singapore.

 

But in reality, that just involves re-submitting a form to an agency the company uses every 3 years then being mindful when I travel to take a letter with me for a couple of weeks.

 

[JLCrab]

21 minutes ago, mogandave said:

I imagine once you figure out how to get the documents the rest is cake.

I believe you can apply through the mail.

Washington DC Embassy requires minimum 15 business days mail O-A application plus all the time it would take for me to get the medical and the FDLE police hard-copy clearance so maybe 6 weeks +/- in the US which is a no-go for me -- hotels and rental cars for 6 weeks as I have no place to stay for more than a few days or else fly RT from Florida to one of the consulates for an in-person application.

Edited November 2, 2018 by JLCrab
added minimum

[Ahab]

I don't think this a bad development for those of us staying here with the proper amount of retirement income. I used the Embassy letter for my last two retirement extensions. This required a 380 km one way trip to Bangkok, an overnight stay in a hotel, pay 1500 baht for the letter, and then drive back to Buriram. Now all I have to do is present my updated Bangkok Bank passbook to the immigration officer to prove I have more than 65,000 baht per month coming in from abroad. There was a bit of uncertainty when this news first broke, but it looks like it sorted itself out quite nicely, as long as you are here legally.

[Pattaya46]

6 minutes ago, Ahab said:

// Now all I have to do is present my updated Bangkok Bank passbook to the immigration officer to prove I have more than 65,000 baht per month coming in from abroad. //

Sorry but you should read a bit more of this long thread.

No such announcement (in fact no announcement at all) has been made by Thai Immigration.

This could be just bad understanding by the Embassy of how Visa Extension process works...

[pontious]

10 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Now all I have to do is present my updated Bangkok Bank passbook to the immigration officer to prove I have more than 65,000 baht per month coming in from abroad.

At the moment you still need the embassy letter.

[JLCrab]

2 minutes ago, pontious said:

At the moment you still need the embassy letter.

In the post a few notches above I was only suggesting the monthly 65K baht foreign transaction (FTT) in the passbook scenario was a possibility down the road.

[ubonjoe]

38 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

A better approach might be to attend the meeting on 7th November mentioned a few pages back [Perhaps somebody could re-post the details, I'm off to work now]...

It is not a meeting of any kind. 

It is the consular outreach to get income affidavits, passport applications and etc.

The full notice is posted on the Isaan forum.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

For anyone who hasn't read thru all (at present) 128 pages of this thread...

 

Thus far, there's been NO public comment or announcement from Thai Immigration whatsoever of what, if anything, they're going to accept in the future in lieu of Embassy income letters, at least for the Americans and Brits who will no longer have them.

 

I believe, in misc posts recently here, one poster said he was told by the Immigration officer he was dealing with that they'd only accept government income documents (like Social Security or military pensions). But another poster said he was told they only are going to accept deposits into Thai bank accounts.

 

So, in short, no one really knows right now.

 

But I do agree, anyone who uses the monthly income method of extensions who's going to be dealing with Immigration for any reason now or in the coming weeks should definitely be asking that question -- what's going to happen once the British and U.S. Embassies no longer issue income letters? How can I qualify for my extensions in the future?  And please post any info here.

 

Edited November 2, 2018 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[marcusarelus]

1 hour ago, Larryst said:

I think the most problem is. Since the U.S. won't issued income affidavits after 31 December. Will the Thai Immigration accept your bank statements & info. Will they accept printed ones from online? Will they accept the SSA verification letter of benefits or other letters of annuities? Has anyone used them instead of the income affidavits? Has anyone contacted SSA to verify they will have direct deposits next year to Thai banks? Instead of posting scenarios. I plan on doing my 90 day check in and show them my bank statements and letters. Then I will find out, what actions I should do in the future. Maybe members posting should just go into immigration and show their documents and then post what would be accepted and what is not accepted.  

I contacted Bank of Bangkok in NYC and they said my account direct deposit no problem next year.  I have a problem getting my SS docs in the mail here.  Last year was OK the year before everything lost. 

[Larryst]

3 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

I contacted Bank of Bangkok in NYC and they said my account direct deposit no problem next year.  I have a problem getting my SS docs in the mail here.  Last year was OK the year before everything lost. 

I seen a post where SSA will direct deposit to Thai banks starting 2019. So if that's true, then you would skip the part going to Bangkok in NYC and have it directly to your bank in Thailand.

 

[nputman]

10 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

I contacted Bank of Bangkok in NYC and they said my account direct deposit no problem next year.  I have a problem getting my SS docs in the mail here.  Last year was OK the year before everything lost. 

Contact via email the Manila SSA office and they will email you verification. I just did and got one directly from them. It is not much very similar to yearly statement from SSA. 

[JimGant]

Quote

I contacted Bank of Bangkok in NYC and they said my account direct deposit no problem next year.

So, assuming your monthly SS direct deposit is $1600, and the baht is 32, you'll need only 166000 baht on deposit for 3 months for the combo method (although I'd probably round up to 200k to cover fx eventualities). Easy for the IO to determine with just your passbook. Doubt he'd be interested in your SS annual letter 'cause as far as he knows that money is still in the States -- and from what was told the British and US embassies, they're now (or soon) only interested in seeing money here.

[Rugon]

Having 800k in the bank is a fair enough requirement. Thailand is no longer a 3rd World Country but a rapidly developing country. If one can't satisfy having $20k in the bank for a few months, one shouldn't be allowed a long-term visa.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

And now Australia joins the party. Welcome mates!