Just Received Some Bad News For US Citizens. No More Income Affidavits.

[mogandave]

Yes and that's what they wrote.

Clearly it must be a trick...

[marcusarelus]

24 minutes ago, onera1961 said:

Five years ago, I stayed here full time for 3 years (visa runs, ed visa, etc.). I went back to the USA to earn some more mullah to secure my stay as I could not touch my 401K without penalty. This year I came back again with an O-A visa but I don't stay here regularly. I plan to keep getting O-A visa as long as I could because I found it easy and hassle free for me. True, I never did any extension and like to avoid it in the future if I could. But I also want to keep all options open and advocate a system that is easy for all. Thai bank transfer without embassy letter is easy for all

I think all of the people posting here are involved in getting extensions so opinions would have some validity of experience and some grounds for understanding motivations.  TM-30 was only a requirement recently and not in the majority of Thai locations.  90 day reports are never a problem for us who actually live here, we've figured it out a long time ago.  I'd suggest you read and let the posters who have experience and motivation give the opinions.  

 

When you actually do visit Thai Immigration and use an income letter or bank letter/statement I'm sure we'd all be interested in hearing about your experiences. 

[elviajero]

1 hour ago, Thaidream said:

1 hour ago, elviajero said:

s I have explained already, the police orders set out the basic criteria. It makes senses for them to simply state that proof of income is required to provide TIB flexibility when obtaining that proof. 

With all due respect- I can easily prove I  have proof of income from abroad without a transfer to a Thai Bank account.  Then there is those who are married and  need to have 40K income stream per month.  Some get their income from working legally and others have invested in  Thailand and while not working they do have  the correct income stream.  None of this comes from abroad.

 

Except for very few Thai Imm offices- it has never mattered before because  the major Thai Imm offices follow both the letter and spirit of the Police Order.  Under the 'new' system without the letter- you may have to show the Thai Bank Book, but I will be surprised if  Thai imm really cares about the source. They certainly don't care about the source if  one has 400/800 K in the bank.

How would you prove your income to Thai immigration if they asked to see it coming in to the country?

 

If a spouse is working legally they can use that income. No other Thai based income would be accepted. They haven't, yet, changed the rules for the benefit of a few expats.

 

The ONLY "spirit of the police order" is for offices to confirm income. They, currently, only accept that proof coming from your embassy. Why do you think they use embassies, from your home country, to confirm income?

 

I appreciate you would like immigration not to be concerned about the source of the income, but in the spirit of rules they are. They simply, until now, haven't insisted on proof. If they move to allow proof of income from transfers to a Thai bank they will almost certainly insist it comes from abroad, unless the applicant has a legal documented income in Thailand.

Edited November 11, 2018 by elviajero

[JLCrab]

4 minutes ago, mogandave said:

Clearly it must be a trick..

From the US Embassy Bangkok website:

 

"We recently met with the new Commissioner of Immigration and his staff to discuss the change, and both the Embassy and Consulate General will work closely with regional immigration offices during the transition period to address any concerns."

 

Maybe the Brits have as well.

Edited November 11, 2018 by JLCrab

[mogandave]

From the US Embassy Bangkok website:
 
"We recently met with the new Commissioner of Immigration and his staff to discuss the change, and both the Embassy and Consulate General will work closely with regional immigration offices during the transition period to address any concerns."
 
Maybe the Brits have as well.

I was joking....

I don’t think the US or UK embassies would make stuff up that could so easily come back to bite them...

[Thaidream]

2 minutes ago, elviajero said:

How would you prove your income to Thai immigration if they asked to see it coming in to the country?

Four US Debit cards- backed by a US Bank Account which shows where the debits in Thailand took place and the amounts- I can easily get 65K with only 2 Debits a month. They have accepted it before as back up proof. Even had a few ATM receipts- didn't want them . Someone might be able to Photoshop a bank account slip but not the actual Debit Cards.

 

I can also use travelers checks- cash 65K each month- The Receipt shows purchased in Los Angeles

 

I can carry any amount of cash into Thailand-legally declare it at Thai Customs and then deposit it into a Thai Bank- Customs  gives a receipt.

 

No reason why Thai would not accept any of the above as proof of origin of funds.

[JLCrab]

8 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

No reason why Thai would not accept any of the above as proof of origin of funds.

Other than they might say they will not accept any of the above as proof of origin of funds and they only want to see the foreign transfer of funds in a passbook account.

[Thaidream]

2 minutes ago, JLCrab said:

Other than they might say they will not accept any of the above as proof of origin of funds and they only want to see the foreign transfer of funds in a passbook account.

Then let them say it loud and clear!!!!

[JLCrab]

1 minute ago, Thaidream said:

Then let them say it loud and clear!!!!

And then you can tell them they are not correct just like you did on the US Embassy Income affidavit where it says that "I receive from sources in the United States".

[mogandave]

If a spouse is working legally they can use that income. No other Thai based income would be accepted. They haven't, yet, changed the rules for the benefit of a few expats.

I don’t know that that is true. If one had unearned income that they were reporting on their Thai tax return, why could they not use that?

[Thaidream]

5 minutes ago, JLCrab said:

And then you can tell them they are not correct just like you did on the US Embassy Income affidavit where it says that "I receive from sources in the United States".

I have no intention of telling them, anything- rather interesting that no other Embassy puts that on their letter-  you want to transfer money each month starting now- that is your business.  However- I have no intention on doing it until the IO at Immigration indicates I have to do it.  Then, I will decide whether I want to do it or simply  do it another way of which I have Plan B,C,D, and E.

[ChiangMaiLightning2143]

There are a few exceptions but usually long as you don’t make yourself worth more dead than alive.

[JLCrab]

Gee the State Department attorneys at the US Embassy in Thailand or a ThaiVisa poster -- who should I believe?

 

And if the additional SWIFT transfer works works or doesn't work no big deal -- I'm still looking at an O-A in the USA later next year.

[elviajero]

24 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

Four US Debit cards- backed by a US Bank Account which shows where the debits in Thailand took place and the amounts- I can easily get 65K with only 2 Debits a month. They have accepted it before as back up proof. Even had a few ATM receipts- didn't want them . Someone might be able to Photoshop a bank account slip but not the actual Debit Cards.

 

I can also use travelers checks- cash 65K each month- The Receipt shows purchased in Los Angeles

 

I can carry any amount of cash into Thailand-legally declare it at Thai Customs and then deposit it into a Thai Bank- Customs  gives a receipt.

 

No reason why Thai would not accept any of the above as proof of origin of funds.

You were commenting on the fact that immigration aren't bothered where the money comes from, and now you are listing various ways of proving you have income originating from abroad.

 

The simple fact is that we are supposed to have an income of 65K or more originating from abroad, and be transferring all/part of that income to Thailand because it is the money you are supposed to be living on. Immigration, currently, only accept proof of said income from our embassies, and don't, as a general rule, require proof that any of the foreign income finds it's way to Thailand.

 

If they change policy and start allowing us to prove income from transfers to a Thai bank account -- being the sensible/logical method -- they aren't likely to allow the various methods you describe. They will, almost certainly, keep it simple.

 

One reason they will, almost certainly, insist on it being transferred in from abroad will be to stop people (easily) churning the same income. 

[Thaidream]

6 minutes ago, mogandave said:

don’t know that that is true. If one had unearned income that they were reporting on their Thai tax return, why could they not use that?

An applicant can create a company with all the proper paperwork and legally purchase and own a guesthouse- or small resort- they can earn income from it and not work the business and use that income as proof  to meet 65K a month or 40K per month. They can also show their Thai Tax declaration as proof or a monthly deposit into a Thai Bank.

 

An investor- can purchase several Condo's -legally rent them out- declare their income on their Thai Tax return and if American on their Us Tax return.  Show thai Imm the documents or a Thai Bank Book.

[JLCrab]

They can also put 800K baht int he bank for 3 months when the forensic accountants at the IMM desk say: Are you nuts?

[mogandave]

Gee the State Department attorneys at the US Embassy in Thailand or a ThaiVisa poster -- who should I believe?
 
And if the additional SWIFT transfer works works or doesn't work no big deal -- I'm still looking at an O-A in the USA later next year.

Exactly, you need money anyway, and you can spend what you bring in.

[Thaidream]

2 minutes ago, elviajero said:

They will, almost certainly, keep it simple.

 

Yes and when you consider there is legitimate income made in Thailand by many people who have investments; companies; etc- they will be shut out if one can only get an extension based upon a bank transfer.

[Russell17au]

14 minutes ago, elviajero said:

You were commenting on the fact that immigration aren't bothered where the money comes from, and now you are listing various ways of proving you have income originating from abroad.

 

The simple fact is that we are supposed to have an income of 65K or more originating from abroad, and be transferring all/part of that income to Thailand because it is the money you are supposed to be living on. Immigration, currently, only accept proof of said income from our embassies, and don't, as a general rule, require proof that any of the foreign income finds it's way to Thailand.

 

If they change policy and start allowing us to prove income from transfers to a Thai bank account -- being the sensible/logical method -- they aren't likely to allow the various methods you describe. They will, almost certainly, keep it simple.

 

One reason they will, almost certainly, insist on it being transferred in from abroad will be to stop people (easily) churning the same income. 

Sorry but you are incorrect about it being transferred into Thailand. I have been getting my income paid directly into my Australian Bank Account and have been withdrawing it via my Australian Debit card at an ATM and that has been accepted as I have only every had to have a Statutory Declaration that my income was AUD$xxxxxxx. You do not have to show your income as being deposited or transferred into a Thai Bank Account.

[elviajero]

35 minutes ago, JLCrab said:

38 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

Then let them say it loud and clear!!!!

And then you can tell them they are not correct just like you did on the US Embassy Income affidavit where it says that "I receive from sources in the United States".

+1

 

@Thaidream There are lots of clues when you you look for them. I appreciate you want it spelt out, but anyone looking objectively wouldn't assume anything other than an embassy are being asked to confirm income from within their own country.

 

We are foreigners request temporary permission to stay for 1 year; funded by income from our own country, unless we're formally employed in Thailand.

[JLCrab]

15 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

Yes and when you consider there is legitimate income made in Thailand by many people who have investments; companies; etc- they will be shut out if one can only get an extension based upon a bank transfer.

So what have they been doing up until now to get their income based extension?

 

[mogandave]

So what have they been doing up until now to get their income based extension?

 

 

Lying on the affidavit?

 

Could be they show their tax return an TI accepts it.

 

Could be the agent that leases their properties ( I don’t think they can manage) get it for them.

 

In any event, making a significant investment with a precarious immigration status seems a little foolish.

 

Pretty big investment to get a 65k a month return with someone else managing it.

[elviajero]

34 minutes ago, mogandave said:

1 hour ago, elviajero said:

If a spouse is working legally they can use that income. No other Thai based income would be accepted. They haven't, yet, changed the rules for the benefit of a few expats.

I don’t know that that is true. If one had unearned income that they were reporting on their Thai tax return, why could they not use that?

 

As far as I am aware they only accept income from a foreigner legally working in Thailand.

 

The number of expat spouses/parents receiving an unearned income supported by a tax return -- that have no other income or 400K in the bank -- could probably be counted on one hand. So I doubt it's ever been tested.

 

I was really referring to the expats receiving cash from their business that they could show as deposits in a Thai bank. If the rules change I cannot seeing that being accepted. Someone receiving a regular dividend or income from a registered Thai business supported by tax return is, IMO, a possibility.

[ubonjoe]

35 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

 

Yes and when you consider there is legitimate income made in Thailand by many people who have investments; companies; etc- they will be shut out if one can only get an extension based upon a bank transfer.

If a person could prove legal income from investments it would be accepted. The proof would be a tax return declaring their income and paying taxes on it.

[mogandave]

As far as I am aware they only accept income from a foreigner legally working in Thailand.
 
The number of expat spouses/parents receiving an unearned income supported by a tax return -- that have no other income or 400K in the bank -- could probably be counted on one hand. So I doubt it's ever been tested.
 
I was really referring to the expats receiving cash from their business that they could show as deposits in a Thai bank. If the rules change I cannot seeing that being accepted. Someone receiving a regular dividend or income from a registered Thai business supported by tax return is, IMO, a possibility.

That could show cash deposits and weren’t tax evaders...

[JackThompson]

39 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

Someone might be able to Photoshop a bank account slip but not the actual Debit Cards.

Yeah.  The faker would need to photoshop-alter statements that match the actual physical cards.  I'm not recommending this, btw - would suck to get into legal trouble here, and "DIY" workaround-activities that don't pay into the "proper channels" are dangerous. 

 

I agree with everything you are saying in principle - but when you consider the goal is simplicity and/or denial (to force an agent-app), I just don't think it will work out. Documents generated and stamped by Thai banks would be more reliable/valid/readable to immigration than any sort of printout.

[elviajero]

45 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

51 minutes ago, elviajero said:

They will, almost certainly, keep it simple.

Yes and when you consider there is legitimate income made in Thailand by many people who have investments; companies; etc- they will be shut out if one can only get an extension based upon a bank transfer.

Again, you seem to want immigration to make concessions for a tiny percentage of expats in the situation you describe. As time goes on maybe immigration will start to adapt, but for now they are issuing short term permits to stay to foreigners with cash in the bank, a foreign income, or an earned income from working in Thailand.

 

I know many business owners in Thailand, and every single one of them has plenty of money in the bank or other income from abroad, and wouldn't need to rely on unearned income generated form their Thai business to support their permission to stay.

 

I could see immigration accepting income from a tax return, but that isn't really what the current system is geared up for. And I believe the number of expats that would need to rely on this to be insignificant.

Edited November 11, 2018 by elviajero

[JLCrab]

BTW the whole conundrum about the "from sources in the United States" on the latest US Income affidavit may be solely what US State Department lawyers allows to be notarized under current State Department policy and really has nothing to do with any Thai IMM regulations or requirements.

Edited November 11, 2018 by JLCrab

[onera1961]

2 hours ago, marcusarelus said:

When you actually do visit Thai Immigration and use an income letter or bank letter/statement I'm sure we'd all be interested in hearing about your experiences. 

Hope that day never comes for me. If possible I will live on O-A for the next twenty years. But I want Thai immigration only accept money transferred to Thai banks regularly every month for extension if I ever want it. Any other requirements, I will leave this country. I have plenty of places to go, including Albuferia in Portugal or Las Vegas in the USA

Edited November 11, 2018 by onera1961

[elviajero]

35 minutes ago, Russell17au said:

Sorry but you are incorrect about it being transferred into Thailand. I have been getting my income paid directly into my Australian Bank Account and have been withdrawing it via my Australian Debit card at an ATM and that has been accepted as I have only every had to have a Statutory Declaration that my income was AUD$xxxxxxx. You do not have to show your income as being deposited or transferred into a Thai Bank Account.

If you withdraw funds via an ATM you have transferred your money from Australia to Thailand.

 

I know we don't currently, generally, have to show income is being transferred to a Thai bank account. And that currently ATM receipts are accepted as proof of income, BUT only in addition to a embassy letter/affidavit. 

 

IF they change the rules they will probably insist on direct transfers. I can't see then accepting ATM receipts.