Just Received Some Bad News For US Citizens. No More Income Affidavits.

[mogandave]

I think it fair so say that when the dust settles, there will be a way to prove income without an embassy letter.

[Jingthing]

36 minutes ago, mogandave said:

I think it fair so say that when the dust settles, there will be a way to prove income without an embassy letter.
 

It's hopeful to say. Fair has nothing to do with it. I don't understand why anyone would commit to a definite prediction at this point in time. We don't know enough yet. The report I posted yesterday would suggest you're wrong but I won't commit to a definite prediction until we actually know. I'm referring to the report about a meeting the head of Jomtien immigration saying starting next year no income applications whatsoever and even existing letters not accepted. Shocking? Yes. Could change tomorrow? Yes. But no long term predictions from me yet. 

[mogandave]

It's hopeful to say. Fair has nothing to do with it. I don't understand why anyone would commit to a definite prediction at this point in time. We don't know enough yet. The report I posted yesterday would suggest you're wrong but I won't commit to a definite prediction until we actually know. I'm referring to the report about a meeting the head of Jomtien immigration saying starting next year no income applications whatsoever and even existing letters not accepted. Shocking? Yes. Could change tomorrow? Yes. But no long term predictions from me yet. 

I would not believe anyone at immigration. They likely have no more information than we do. If they had any hard information, it is very likely we would have the information as well.

There appears to be only two ways forward:
1. Allowing and or facilitating the substantiation of income.
2. Mandating everyone have the minimum deposit.

As I do not believe they’re trying to get rid of people that truly satisfy the income requirements, I have to go with number one.

But to quote my old and dear friend Harry Truman Cox (RIP) a couple of months before the end of the season and bonus time: “Save your money!”

[Jingthing]

2 minutes ago, mogandave said:

 

I would not believe anyone at immigration. They likely have no more information than we do. If they had any hard information, it is very likely we would have the information as well.

There appears to be only two ways forward:
1. Allowing and or facilitating the substantiation of income.
2. Mandating everyone have the minimum deposit.

As I do not believe they’re trying to get rid of people that truly satisfy the income requirements, I have to go with number one.

But to quote my old and dear friend Harry Truman Cox (RIP) a couple of months before the end of the season and bonus time: “Save your money!”

 

Anyone? The chief boss of one of the largest offices in Thailand?

I think he knows the CURRENT plans for his office next year.

It's a given that can still change.

You're suggesting it definitely will change.

I don't see the point in committing to predictions. 

 

Why does this matter?

I'll tell you why.

There seem to many people planning right now to do the 65K monthly imports assuming that will definitely work.

I think that's a folly.

Instead, if they CAN, they should start funding their Thai bank accounts to be used for a pure bank account method. That's as good as definite.

Income applications without letters or even letters from this year for next year -- NOT DEFINITE.

I fully understand not everyone can manage the bank account method either in time for seasoning or ever.

But if you can, you really should. Don't rely on HOPE!

Edited November 16, 2018 by Jingthing

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

47 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

The report I posted yesterday would suggest you're wrong but I won't commit to a definite prediction until we actually know. I'm referring to the report about a meeting the head of Jomtien immigration saying starting next year no income applications whatsoever and even existing letters not accepted.

 

Jing, can you reply with a post number or a link to the prior post you're referring to... I went back several pages in this thread to Wednesday and didn't see the one you're describing. Probably not looking in the right place.... 

[mogandave]

Anyone? The chief boss of one of the largest offices in Thailand?
I think he knows the CURRENT plans for his office next year.
It's a given that can still change.
You're suggesting it definitely will change.
I don't see the point in committing to predictions. 
 
Why does this matter?
I'll tell you why.
There seem to many people planning right now to do the 65K monthly imports assuming that will definitely work.
I think that's a folly.
Instead, if they CAN, they should start funding their Thai bank accounts to be used for a pure bank account method. That's as good as definite.
Income applications without letters or even letters from this year for next year -- NOT DEFINITE.
I fully understand not everyone can manage the bank account method either in time for seasoning or ever.
But if you can, you really should. Don't rely on HOPE!

People that start the 65k transfers now will be in better shape than people that do nothing, even if they ultimately end up having to go the 800k method. I am not really concerned for myself as I am pretty much covered regardless.

You talked directly to the Chief Boss or you got some second/third hand information? I would generally trust you as we have something of a history, but generally thread-talk is bulls....

In any event, no, I do not think they would know anymore than what has been confirmed, and for the time being, the only thing (in-country) that is certain is the 400/800K method, which could be why they are warning people.

[Dante99]

1 hour ago, Jingthing said:

I won't commit to a definite prediction until we actually know.

Such a brave risk taker.  Would it be a prediction if we actually know?  I do have difficulty with English language so please help me out.

[Thaidream]

2 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Income applications without letters or even letters from this year for next year -- NOT DEFINITE.

It's rather interesting that there is this report from Jomtien.

 

In addition there is a report from CW that they will accept Embassy letters into next year.

 

Then there is the report from Phuket that while they will accept letters one has to have proof of a Government Pension.

 

Which Immigration office shall we believe?   Unfortunately- the only sure bet at the moment is the 400K/800K.

 

The whole situation is a sad commentary and represents  very poor co-ordination by Embassies.

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, Dante99 said:

Such a brave risk taker.  Would it be a prediction if we actually know?  I do have difficulty with English language so please help me out.

Help yourself. This a very serious matter for many people and some of them are older and have nothing to go back "home" to. So I won't be baited by such juvenile games. 

[Pib]

Well, someone was successful in using the income method "without" an embassy income letter.   Maybe a glimmer of hope.  But it's only one report....hopefully we'll see more.

 

[OliverKlozerof]

191 pages and counting. Not too hopeful, but has anyone created or found a summary of any important info in all of this? Otherwise I guess I'll randomly click through to try and get the gist.

But just one thing here on page 191 that I saw mentioned twice: "400k/800k"

I heard, to be 'kosher,' one method is to show 800k has been in your account, deposited from abroad, for at least 2 months prior to visa renewal. What is the '400k?'

(The other method is to show B65k monthly deposits. Anyone know how many months prior to renewal these need to show in your acct to satisfy immigration?) Thx.

[mogandave]

191 pages and counting. Not too hopeful, but has anyone created or found a summary of any important info in all of this? Otherwise I guess I'll randomly click through to try and get the gist.
But just one thing here on page 191 that I saw mentioned twice: "400k/800k"
I heard, to be 'kosher,' one method is to show 800k has been in your account, deposited from abroad, for at least 2 months prior to visa renewal. What is the '400k?'
(The other method is to show B65k monthly deposits. Anyone know how many months prior to renewal these need to show in your acct to satisfy immigration?) Thx.

800k retirement

400k marriage

[JackThompson]

14 minutes ago, OliverKlozerof said:

I heard, to be 'kosher,' one method is to show 800k has been in your account, deposited from abroad, for at least 2 months prior to visa renewal. What is the '400k?'

The 800K must be in your account for 2 months (min-balance) the first time you apply for an annual extension, but it must be there for 3 months before subsequent years' applications.

[ubonjoe]

12 minutes ago, OliverKlozerof said:

I heard, to be 'kosher,' one method is to show 800k has been in your account, deposited from abroad, for at least 2 months prior to visa renewal. What is the '400k?'

(The other method is to show B65k monthly deposits. Anyone know how many months prior to renewal these need to show in your acct to satisfy immigration?)

For an extension based upon retirement the 800k baht has to be in a Thai bank for 3 months (60 day for first extension).

For an extension of stay based upon marriage to a Thai or for being the parent of a Thai is 400k baht for 2 months or 40k baht income.

There is no info yet from immigration about the 65k baht or 40k baht yet. It is unknown what the requirements will be.

[sumrit]

13 minutes ago, OliverKlozerof said:

191 pages and counting. Not too hopeful, but has anyone created or found a summary of any important info in all of this? Otherwise I guess I'll randomly click through to try and get the gist.

But just one thing here on page 191 that I saw mentioned twice: "400k/800k"

I heard, to be 'kosher,' one method is to show 800k has been in your account, deposited from abroad, for at least 2 months prior to visa renewal. What is the '400k?'

(The other method is to show B65k monthly deposits. Anyone know how many months prior to renewal these need to show in your acct to satisfy immigration?) Thx.

According to a recent Radio interview, the assistant US Ambassador said his Embassy were in continual talks with Thai Immigration and an announcement on the requirements for both the 65k baht monthly income and combination methods should be made later this month. 

[SeaBorn13]

In 2017, I received my first multiple entry OA visa from the Thai consulate in Los Angeles.  I applied there as all of my funds are tied up in the US and US laws make it difficult to move them... I renewed my OA visa in 2018 in Thailand using an agent, which was far more costly than obtaining my first OA visa directly from the consulate.  My visa is set to renew in Mar, 2019 and with market conditions, it will be cheaper for me to fly back to the US to obtain my visa than to transfer 800,000 baht to Thailand to meet the income requirements.  I can understand the US embassy position, but the fault for many using Social Security and other pensions, the fault is Thailand's unwillingness to accept alternate documentation in an electronic format.  A PDF statement is acceptable to consular officials but immigration is so far unwilling to realize that it needs to update its procedures to become more current with what other Thai government agencies deem to be adequate documentary evidence.

[marcusarelus]

6 minutes ago, SeaBorn13 said:

In 2017, I received my first multiple entry OA visa from the Thai consulate in Los Angeles.  I applied there as all of my funds are tied up in the US and US laws make it difficult to move them... I renewed my OA visa in 2018 in Thailand using an agent, which was far more costly than obtaining my first OA visa directly from the consulate.  My visa is set to renew in Mar, 2019 and with market conditions, it will be cheaper for me to fly back to the US to obtain my visa than to transfer 800,000 baht to Thailand to meet the income requirements.  I can understand the US embassy position, but the fault for many using Social Security and other pensions, the fault is Thailand's unwillingness to accept alternate documentation in an electronic format.  A PDF statement is acceptable to consular officials but immigration is so far unwilling to realize that it needs to update its procedures to become more current with what other Thai government agencies deem to be adequate documentary evidence.

Nothing is acceptable to the US embassy.  They are too lazy to write a letter to Thai Immigration and have stopped doing so. 

[sumrit]

7 minutes ago, SeaBorn13 said:

In 2017, I received my first multiple entry OA visa from the Thai consulate in Los Angeles.  I applied there as all of my funds are tied up in the US and US laws make it difficult to move them... I renewed my OA visa in 2018 in Thailand using an agent, which was far more costly than obtaining my first OA visa directly from the consulate.  My visa is set to renew in Mar, 2019 and with market conditions, it will be cheaper for me to fly back to the US to obtain my visa than to transfer 800,000 baht to Thailand to meet the income requirements.  I can understand the US embassy position, but the fault for many using Social Security and other pensions, the fault is Thailand's unwillingness to accept alternate documentation in an electronic format.  A PDF statement is acceptable to consular officials,but immigration is so far unwilling to realize that it needs to update its procedures to become more current with what other Thai government agencies deem to be adequate documentary evidence.

3

According to your Ambassador, Thai Immigration haven't announced what documentation will be accepted yet.

 

At least let them make the announcement before you blame them for anything.

[bkk6060]

There may be some desperate people out there and I know one.

This guy is in his 70's and claims he has no money.  He has always used the income letter although his US social security is only 30,000 b a month.  He admitted he has always lied to get the letter. He has lived with his Thai gf for 10 years.

Anyway, this guy flat asked me if I would open an account in his name and season it with my money so he qualify later this year.

With this, honest to God, he said I could have sex with his gf any time I wanted as many times as I want.

Of course, I am not stupid enough to do any of this but no doubt he is serious and very desperate.

Edited January 2, 2019 by bkk6060

[sumrit]

3 minutes ago, bkk6060 said:

There may be some desperate people out there and I know one.

This guy is in his 70's and claims he has no money.  He has always used the income letter although his US social security is only 30,000 b a month.  He admitted he has always lied to get the letter. He has lived with his Thai gf for 10 years.

Anyway, this guy flat asked me if I would open an account in his name and season it with my money so he qualify later this year.

With this, honest to God, he said I could have sex with his gf any time I wanted as many times as I want.

Of course, I am not stupid enough to do any of this but no doubt he is serious and very desperate.

So what are you suggesting, US Embassy and Thai Immigration are to blame because they won't continue a system that allows/encourages people like your friend to lie in order to stay in Thailand illegally?? 

[marcusarelus]

2 minutes ago, sumrit said:

So what are you suggesting, US Embassy and Thai Immigration are to blame because they won't continue a system that allows/encourages people like your friend to lie in order to stay in Thailand illegally?? 

No just the US Embassy and 3 other embassies.  The rest of the foreign governments don't mind the service for their citizens and will still give them a letter. 

[jmd8800]

11 minutes ago, bkk6060 said:

There may be some desperate people out there and I know one.

This guy is in his 70's and claims he has no money.  He has always used the income letter although his US social security is only 30,000 b a month.  He admitted he has always lied to get the letter. He has lived with his Thai gf for 10 years.

Anyway, this guy flat asked me if I would open an account in his name and season it with my money so he qualify later this year.

With this, honest to God, he said I could have sex with his gf any time I wanted as many times as I want.

Of course, I am not stupid enough to do any of this but no doubt he is serious and very desperate.

But.... can she cook?? (Just kidding)

 

In all seriousness, I would be willing to bet there will be ways for your friend to stay in Thailand. He'll just have to get 'creative'

 

As sidenote I had a conversation once with an American guy who proudly said he lied on the letter as he didn't qualify by law. Later in the conversation I asked if he ever used an agent for immigration. He said: No. That is corruption.

 

It takes all kinds I guess

[luckyluke]

2 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

The rest of the foreign governments don't mind the service for their citizens and will still give them a letter. 

I suppose they are aware that there is a minority abusing the system, but still continue to issue letters so that the majority is not the dupe.

 

[Joe Mcseismic]

8 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

No just the US Embassy and 3 other embassies.  The rest of the foreign governments don't mind the service for their citizens and will still give them a letter. 

Should read:-

 

No just the US Embassy and 3 other embassies.  The rest of the foreign governments don't mind their citizens lying and will still give them a letter. 

[marcusarelus]

2 minutes ago, Joe Mcseismic said:

Should read:-

 

No just the US Embassy and 3 other embassies.  The rest of the foreign governments don't mind their citizens lying and will still give them a letter. 

In America one is innocent until proven guilty.  I guess you are not from a free country with a reputable system of jurisprudence. 

[marcusarelus]

7 minutes ago, luckyluke said:

I suppose they are aware that there is a minority abusing the system, but still continue to issue letters so that the majority is not the dupe.

I have no idea.  It would only take a minute for an embassy to check a pension or social security amount with the permission of the applicant.  Too much work methinks. 

[pookiki]

48 minutes ago, bkk6060 said:

There may be some desperate people out there and I know one.

This guy is in his 70's and claims he has no money.  He has always used the income letter although his US social security is only 30,000 b a month.  He admitted he has always lied to get the letter. He has lived with his Thai gf for 10 years.

Anyway, this guy flat asked me if I would open an account in his name and season it with my money so he qualify later this year.

With this, honest to God, he said I could have sex with his gf any time I wanted as many times as I want.

Of course, I am not stupid enough to do any of this but no doubt he is serious and very desperate.

Tell him to use an agent.

[Joe Mcseismic]

26 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

In America one is innocent until proven guilty.  I guess you are not from a free country with a reputable system of jurisprudence. 

.....and you are obviously still recovering from your sense-of-humour bypass operation.

[sumrit]

27 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

In America one is innocent until proven guilty.  I guess you are not from a free country with a reputable system of jurisprudence. 

In America (and the UK) maybe but we're talking about qualifying to stay in Thailand where you must prove you meet the financial requirements to stay. Lying about your income then declaring you're innocent until it's proved that you lied is not an option.

 

Like the UK, if somebody applies for a visa to go to the US that person must prove (amongst other things) that you qualify financially for that visa. They are not allowed in and deemed innocent until it's proved they lied about their financial position.

 

The problem in Thailand is that, although rules have been in place, enforcement on all sides has been lax and open to abuse. Now they want to tighten up the system the people on the fiddles are panicking and think it's unfair.

[sumrit]

3 minutes ago, pookiki said:

Tell him to use an agent.

More advice on how to break the law.