Just Received Some Bad News For US Citizens. No More Income Affidavits.

[mogandave]

Including me at the present time... Bored in Thailand is a killer.
I've spend a very active 10 years in Thailand with my hobby. Now I have sold off and given away everything to pursue my hobby elsewhere. I have never known boredom like this.  
Got one more letter from the embassy I will submit on around the 15th. Then I am out of here. 

Go with God

[bkk6060]

1 hour ago, cleverman said:

Your post is more guess work that has ever been posted before. Absolutely useless .

And your contribution to this thread is more useless.

You would not qualify I assume.

Sorry if my post scares you.

But, when I am right make sure you tell me what a genius I am.

Thanks. Good luck and Happy New Year!

Edited January 3, 2019 by bkk6060

[JimGant]

What do the Swiss do?

Quote

Pensioners requiring confirmation of their pension for the Thai immigration authorities in order to extend their permit of stay in Thailand, can apply for a such at the Regional Consular Center. An original document (e.g. a pension order) confirming the current entitlement and which is no older than 6 months must be provided. Confirmations sent by the issuing authority/institution to the Regional Consular Center in Bangkok directly by fax or email are also accepted. Bank account or tax statements cannot be used.

Original documentation, presumably with a real signature, letterhead stationary, and/or raised seal. If you can't provide such personally -- then have the agency paying your pension send the documentation directly to the embassy. No computer screen printouts allowed here -- nor bank statements.

 

Foolproof verification? Nope. Good enough for the Swiss and Thais? Apparently.

[garyk]

I thought this was interesting, looks like basically the same thing the U.S. embassy is doing here. Looks like it is accepted practice in Colombia for income verification.

I hate to keep harping on this, but if the Thai immigration is going to absolutely require 800K seasoned or 65K/mo. in a Thai bank. It is a money scam plain and simple. If you are 62 and older, and drawing SS. it is 99.9% you ain't a criminal. If you have lived here for years and caused no problems you are not a criminal plain and simple.

This whole thing smells to high heaven IMO.  

 

How to Get a Benefits Verification Letter from the U.S. Embassy

The alternative to the apostille is a benefits verification letter from the U.S. Embassy in Bogotá. This letter is sometimes called a “budget letter,” a “benefits letter,” a “proof of income letter,” or a “proof of award letter”.

To request a benefits verification letter at the U.S. Embassy, you need to request “notarial and other services” and get an appointment.

On the day of your notary appointment you will need to present:

• Original or copy of valid U.S. passport
• Documentation from Social Security, Veterans, private pension from the current year indicating the amount you receive or bank statements from the last three months showing the monthly amount you receive
• The $50 notary fee.

[cleverman]

11 hours ago, bkk6060 said:

And your contribution to this thread is more useless.

You would not qualify I assume.

Sorry if my post scares you.

But, when I am right make sure you tell me what a genius I am.

Thanks. Good luck and Happy New Year!

Give me one example of a useless post of mine. 

[jacko45k]

17 hours ago, JackThompson said:

To the extent that lying on StatDecs was not a risk in this context is entirely the fault of immigration,

It isn't Thai immigration's function to police the declarations and affidavits  made in foreign embassies. I believe they were under some illusion the Embassies were actually verifying what they were attesting to. When it was apparent they were not, they asked that they do.

Thailand maybe has a different belief as to the prevalence of honesty. 

[marcusarelus]

1 hour ago, jacko45k said:

It isn't Thai immigration's function to police the declarations and affidavits  made in foreign embassies. I believe they were under some illusion the Embassies were actually verifying what they were attesting to. When it was apparent they were not, they asked that they do.

Thailand maybe has a different belief as to the prevalence of honesty. 

You have an active imagination - if not post some links to suggest anything in your post is factual. 

[jacko45k]

8 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

You have an active imagination - if not post some links to suggest anything in your post is factual. 

From the OP....

Quote

The Royal Thai Government requires actual verification of income to certify visa applicants meet financial requirements for long-stay visas

 

[BobBKK]

Just now, jacko45k said:

From the OP....

 

Isn't foreign funds coming into a THAI bank such verification? 

[jacko45k]

10 minutes ago, BobBKK said:

Isn't foreign funds coming into a THAI bank such verification? 

It wasn't previously, as an Embassy letter became a requirement. In the future, yet to be announced,many seem to believe it will be.

[Dante99]

59 minutes ago, BobBKK said:

Isn't foreign funds coming into a THAI bank such verification? 

No.  Could be a gift from your grandmother and not income.

[Spidey]

17 minutes ago, Dante99 said:

No.  Could be a gift from your grandmother and not income.

Or even a short term loan.

[JackThompson]

2 hours ago, jacko45k said:

It isn't Thai immigration's function to police the declarations and affidavits  made in foreign embassies. I believe they were under some illusion the Embassies were actually verifying what they were attesting to. When it was apparent they were not, they asked that they do.

Thailand maybe has a different belief as to the prevalence of honesty. 

Having had Thai officials read the standard US Embassy Doc disclaimer to me (Amphoe personnel who refused to marry my wife and I, using this as the excuse), I do not think this is likely.  

As well, while the "common-law" on which these types of declarations was established in Europe, modern Thai law was heavily influenced by British law, so those at the upper echelons would have been familiar with the nature of this type of document/statement.

 

That said, I think it likely they approached the subject as you described - essentially "playing dumb" - and our diplomats felt the best approach was not call them on it ala, "Aw, Come ON Guys!  It says what it is Right Here, and has for years."

[KiChakayan]

16 hours ago, cleverman said:

Your post is more guess work that has ever been posted before. Absolutely useless .

So are most of the some 3000 posts in this thread, which are far less informative than to 10 minutes interview of the US Consul general.

Ironically TIB is unlikely to come up with a sensible solution anyhow, at a time when someone should design a sensible package to ensure that retirees contribute significantly to the economy , without ever becoming a burden.

For guys being married the verification process should be to ensure that they families are effectively taken care of.

To be fair, anything they come up with would have the to abide by the KISS (Keep It Simple and Stupid) principle, even though it may be brutal for some. As far as I am concerned I am not sure if forcing some geezers out of their Thai misery would be that inhumane.

[JackThompson]

7 hours ago, garyk said:

I thought this was interesting, looks like basically the same thing the U.S. embassy is doing here. Looks like it is accepted practice in Colombia for income verification.

I hate to keep harping on this, but if the Thai immigration is going to absolutely require 800K seasoned or 65K/mo. in a Thai bank. It is a money scam plain and simple. If you are 62 and older, and drawing SS. it is 99.9% you ain't a criminal. If you have lived here for years and caused no problems you are not a criminal plain and simple.

This whole thing smells to high heaven IMO.  

Unfortunately, we get no credit for "good behavior," here.  If anything, we are looked upon by some officials as "cling-ons" who "Won't go home, already."

 

7 hours ago, garyk said:

How to Get a Benefits Verification Letter from the U.S. Embassy

The alternative to the apostille is a benefits verification letter from the U.S. Embassy in Bogotá. This letter is sometimes called a “budget letter,” a “benefits letter,” a “proof of income letter,” or a “proof of award letter”.

To request a benefits verification letter at the U.S. Embassy, you need to request “notarial and other services” and get an appointment.

On the day of your notary appointment you will need to present:

• Original or copy of valid U.S. passport
• Documentation from Social Security, Veterans, private pension from the current year indicating the amount you receive or bank statements from the last three months showing the monthly amount you receive
• The $50 notary fee.

That is interesting, and would seem to have been something that might have worked here, for those receiving govt-benefits as their income-stream. 

 

I do not see a blank affidavit for that service on that site, but I suspect the final document says something at the end akin to, "This person is John Doe, and has presented this document and sworn it is true."  We can do this for any document at a US Embassy/Consulate.  The difference by-country is some wording at the top of the document.

[Spidey]

3 minutes ago, KiChakayan said:

So are most of the some 3000 posts in this thread, which are far less informative than to 10 minutes interview of the US Consul general.

Ironically TIB is unlikely to come up with a sensible solution anyhow, at a time when someone should design a sensible package to ensure that retirees contribute significantly to the economy , without ever becoming a burden.

For guys being married the verification process should be to ensure that they families are effectively taken care of.

To be fair, anything they come up with would have the to abide by the KISS (Keep It Simple and Stupid) principle, even though it may be brutal for some. As far as I am concerned I am not sure if forcing some geezers out of their Thai misery would be that inhumane.

The problem with this thread is that nobody really knows anything, even the IOs. Some strong speculation that an announcement will be made by TI this month.

 

We don't even know what was said by TI to the embassies last May. All we can do is speculate.

 

Here's my bit of pure speculation:

 

At the meeting in May TI announced to all embassies, collectively, that they weren't happy with the level of verification performed by some embassies.

 

Most embassies did perform a level of verification, the British embassy required production of documents showing income. Therefore they did verify income but didn't verify the documents, a question of semantics around the word "verification". As nearly every other embassy that performed a similar level of verification to the British Embassy continue to issue income letters, it's my assertion that the British Embassy used the May meeting as an excuse to discontinue the income letters which were, in reality, discontinued for their own motives (downsizing of Embassy?).

 

However, I believe that the announcement in May was primarily aimed at the US and Australian embassies who's verification consisted of the individual swearing an oath as to their level of income. Hardly verification by anyone's definition of the word. It's therefore no surprise that these 2 embassies discontinued their embassy letters. There is some evidence that the TI displeasure at the level of verification was aimed at the US Embassy in particular, in that some IOs (notably CM) had been asking some US citizens to provide documentary backup as to their level of income when presenting their embassy letters to IO, before this issue became public.

 

All pure speculation on my part, but there you have it.

 

 

[JackThompson]

10 minutes ago, KiChakayan said:

For guys being married the verification process should be to ensure that they families are effectively taken care of.

A sworn-statement by the wife should take care of that.  But, of course, she likely would have divorced a bum, anyway. 

 

I think the "hard minimum" income is a disservice to many Thai wives, who would much prefer their foreigner-husband were here spending, say, 30K/mo - vs hubby having to pay to live somewhere else and sending maybe 5K/mo.  Just because the wife could live at home with mom and dad, doesn't mean she doesn't prefer her own home.

 

18 minutes ago, KiChakayan said:

To be fair, anything they come up with would have the to abide by the KISS (Keep It Simple and Stupid) principle, even though it may be brutal for some.

I do agree a simple solution is best.  The biggest hurdle for many who honestly met the requirement for the embassy letter in the past, will be taking care of passport-country obligations which may have utilized part of their total foreign-income (as stated on the letter).  This "bring it all to Thailand," requirement is, indeed, "moving the goalposts."  Hopefully, this forum and other sources can help those folks navigate ways to cover those passport-country expenses, after making the initial transfer of their monthly-income here, to meet the new Thai requirement.

 

6 minutes ago, KiChakayan said:

As far as I am concerned I am not sure if forcing some geezers out of their Thai misery would be that inhumane.

Forcing them out "into what alternative," would be the first question that comes to mind.  Perhaps the "geezer" has a better idea what suits them than anyone else?   As I approach the "geezer" stage of life, myself, I do worry someone might think they "know what's best" for me, and enforce it against my own wishes and desires.

[Spidey]

13 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

I think the "hard minimum" income is a disservice to many Thai wives, who would much prefer their foreigner-husband were here spending, say, 30K/mo - vs hubby having to pay to live somewhere else and sending maybe 5K/mo.  Just because the wife could live at home with mom and dad, doesn't mean she doesn't prefer her own home.

 

Absolutely true.

 

My wife and son have just returned from the village, having spent a few days at New Year there. For the first time, I didn't go with them as I just couldn't face the car journey, 12 hours crawling through traffic at New Year. Normally, when visiting the family we stay in a nice hotel nearby. This time, she stayed in the family home where she lived prior to me settling in Thailand.

 

She has done nothing but complain since her return. Permanently cold due to the weather up there. Food not great. Couldn't sleep due to cold and uncomfortable beds. Didn't wash her hair as the shower (plastic tub on the floor of an outbuilding + plastic bowl/ladle) was freezing cold. My son was equally miserable. No internet for tablet, crap food, cold, lack of toys. Did enjoy running round the village, unfettered, with his mates.

 

Clearly, I have spoiled them as my wife has vowed never to return unless booked into a good hotel. At least it has reaffirmed her determination to keep me sweet!

[luckyluke]

4 minutes ago, Spidey said:

Normally, when visiting the family we stay in a nice hotel nearby. This time, she stayed in the family home where she lived prior to me settling in Thailand.

Don't go with your wife and son if you don't want to.
Just give your wife the necessary money, she will be able to stay, with her son, in a nice hotel.

Everybody happy :

You happy because no 12 hours journey, your wife and son happy because staying in a nice hotel.

 

[JackThompson]

7 minutes ago, Spidey said:

Absolutely true.

 

My wife and son have just returned from the village, having spent a few days at New Year there. For the first time, I didn't go with them as I just couldn't face the car journey, 12 hours crawling through traffic at New Year. Normally, when visiting the family we stay in a nice hotel nearby. This time, she stayed in the family home where she lived prior to me settling in Thailand.

 

She has done nothing but complain since her return. Permanently cold due to the weather up there. Food not great. Couldn't sleep due to cold and uncomfortable beds. Didn't wash her hair as the shower (plastic tub on the floor of an outbuilding + plastic bowl/ladle) was freezing cold. My son was equally miserable. No internet for tablet, crap food, cold, lack of toys. Did enjoy running round the village, unfettered, with his mates.

 

Clearly, I have spoiled them as my wife has vowed never to return unless booked into a good hotel. At least it has reaffirmed her determination to keep me sweet!

I live "up there" with my wife - though in our own home.  Funny thing - now I am cold too - at temps I would have considered almost "balmy" a few years ago.  My wife said hot water was not necessary (is for me), but I find she does use it when present ????.

 

As to the food - the younger generation doesn't seem to appreciate it (preferring less-healthy "luk chin" kabob processed-garbage and similar).  But, my wife and I love traditional Issan food.  The things (I cannot pronounce) which my mother-in-law cooks in those banana leaves are exceptional - and it pains me to think the knowledge of how to prepare them could be lost to the next generation.  Maybe I just got lucky, and married into a family with Issan-culinary-excellence.

[ubonjoe]

Several off topic, baiting, bickering and a flames of other members have been removed. Time to end it and get back on topic.

[JLCrab]

Yes the topic now being what does the ThaiVisa  vox populi think that Thai IMM should do now that the income affidavit is RIP (as long as it is in my best interest and solves all my problems and alleviates any hardship that I might otherwise incur.)

Edited January 4, 2019 by JLCrab

[sumrit]

I know everything posted on this and other similar threads have been pure speculation and nothing has been officially announced so far, but:

 

Unless Thai Immigration reject the proof of a minimum of65k baht deposited monthly into a Thai bank option in their decision and come up with a more flexible alternative to replace the Income Letter I can see a lot of married people doing the same as I plan to do and change from an Extension based on Retirement to an Extension based on Marriage.

 

I’ve been married and living in Thailand for over fifteen years but, because I have and can show more than 65k per month income to the British Embassy for my annual letters, I’ve preferred to continue with an Extension based on Retirement because, so far, it’s always been much more straightforward to do than an Extension based on Marriage.

 

But, we don’t spend anywhere near 65k each and every month. On average we spend about 50k baht on general monthly expenses and that’s what I usually transfer from the UK each month.

 

I have no intention of sending an extra 15k every month (about £4,400 per year) that we don’t need, just to satisfy a minimum requirement transferred into a Thai Bank. I can still transfer what extra I need it to cover other costs/purchases as and when I need to.

 

Yes, the Extension based on Marriage is more long-winded and time-consuming, and will probably end up being a lot of extra work for the IO’s at immigration, but I’ll suffer that to have more control over where I keep my money.

[ubonjoe]

2 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

Several off topic, baiting, bickering and a flames of other members have been removed. Time to end it and get back on topic.

And some more baiting posts and replies to them have been removed,

No further notices of removed post will be given. If you post goes away you can assume you stepped over the line.

[jmd8800]

Page: 200 Maybe it is time to close the topic and open another one if/when more bona fide information becomes available.

 

Most people know what the OP posted by now and there isn't much anyone can discuss until new details are announced.

[bkk6060]

ALERT!!!

 

I have some updated information on this situation.

I am going to open a new thread in a few minutes!

[Spidey]

1 minute ago, bkk6060 said:

ALERT!!!

 

I have some updated information on this situation.

I am going to open a new thread in a few minutes!

You're not a TV techie are you? If so, I won't hold my breath.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

On 1/4/2019 at 4:58 PM, sumrit said:

I know everything posted on this and other similar threads have been pure speculation and nothing has been officially announced so far, but:

 

Unless Thai Immigration reject the proof of a minimum of65k baht deposited monthly into a Thai bank option in their decision and come up with a more flexible alternative to replace the Income Letter I can see a lot of married people doing the same as I plan to do and change from an Extension based on Retirement to an Extension based on Marriage.

 

I’ve been married and living in Thailand for over fifteen years but, because I have and can show more than 65k per month income to the British Embassy for my annual letters, I’ve preferred to continue with an Extension based on Retirement because, so far, it’s always been much more straightforward to do than an Extension based on Marriage.

 

But, we don’t spend anywhere near 65k each and every month. On average we spend about 50k baht on general monthly expenses and that’s what I usually transfer from the UK each month.

 

I have no intention of sending an extra 15k every month (about £4,400 per year) that we don’t need, just to satisfy a minimum requirement transferred into a Thai Bank. I can still transfer what extra I need it to cover other costs/purchases as and when I need to.

 

Yes, the Extension based on Marriage is more long-winded and time-consuming, and will probably end up being a lot of extra work for the IO’s at immigration, but I’ll suffer that to have more control over where I keep my money.

 

Couldn't have said it any better myself. Plus 1 from me.

 

To the few posters here who keep posting about people supposedly having scammed the past income letters system, like you, I have absolutely no problem meeting the monthly income or bank deposits requirements for either a retirement or a marriage extension.

 

HOWEVER, like you, my wife and I don't spend anywhere near 65K per month, and I have absolutely no need or desire to pay for sending extra money into Thailand when I can earn much better investment returns on it in my home country. Nor am I a big fan of paying monthly intl transfer fees. Nor do I especially want to put 800K in a Thai bank that I neither trust nor will pay me a decent return on my funds. But I have plenty of money in my home country and enough home country income to meet the 65K rule.

 

So, like you, depending on how the documentation verification for monthly income deposits finally settles out, I'll probably plan on switching to a marriage extension after being on retirement extensions for many years, and put up with keeping 400K in a useless Thai bank account as the least objectionable available path for maintaining an extension here.

[garyk]

13 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

Couldn't have said it any better myself. Plus 1 from me.

 

To the few posters here who keep posting about people supposedly having scammed the past income letters system, like you, I have absolutely no problem meeting the monthly income or bank deposits requirements for either a retirement or a marriage extension.

 

HOWEVER, like you, my wife and I don't spend anywhere near 65K per month, and I have absolutely no need or desire to pay for sending extra money into Thailand when I can earn much better investment returns on it in my home country. Nor am I a big fan of paying monthly intl transfer fees. Nor do I especially want to put 800K in a Thai bank that I neither trust nor will pay me a decent return on my funds. But I have plenty of money in my home country and enough home country income to meet the 65K rule.

 

So, like you, depending on how the documentation verification for monthly income deposits finally settles out, I'll probably plan on switching to a marriage extension after being on retirement extensions for many years, and put up with keeping 400K in a useless Thai bank account as the least objectionable available path for maintaining an extension here.

He couldn't of said it better and you could not have said it better.

I live for way under 65K/mo. And I live a very nice life.

I save over 50% if my monthly income! 

Marriage is the only option IMO. 65K/mo. in a Thai bank?  Anyone considering the 800K or 65K/mo. haven't got their feet planted firmly on the ground IMO.

This is a squeeze play for expats, once things like this start happening it will ramp up quickly. 

 

 

Edited January 6, 2019 by garyk

[LucysDad]

6 minutes ago, garyk said:

He couldn't of said it better and you could not have said it better.

I live for way under 65K/mo. And I live a very nice life.

I save over 50% if my monthly income! 

Marriage is the only option IMO. 65K/mo. in a Thai bank?  Anyone considering the 800K or 65K/mo. haven't got their feet planted firmly on the ground IMO.

This is a squeeze play for expats, once things like this start happening it will ramp up quickly. 

 

 

 

 

What nonsense.

 

 

I spend more than 65k p.m. and easily meet any requirement to evidence that amount going into a Thai bank account every month.

 

I shall continue with extensions based on retirement - easiest way to go for the applicant, and immigration.