Just Received Some Bad News For US Citizens. No More Income Affidavits.

[elviajero]

6 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

Now we are getting to my point.  You wrote, " What have Chinese tourists got to do with it!?"  Do you think the Chinese are afraid of legal implications?  Or that the Thais would dare anger the Chinese?  Why?  Because of 30 million Chinese tourists. 

1. There are not 30M Chinese tourists.
2. More relevant is that Thailand make all Chinese tourists apply for a visa, and that doesn't seem to "anger the Chinese"!

The issue is about expats needing proof of income to get a permit to stay for 1 year. When/if the average Chinese become able to - and want to en masse - live in Thailand it might become an issue. Until then, as I said, there are very few expat Chinese relying on income letters - making your point irrelevant.

[marcusarelus]

Just now, elviajero said:

1. There are not 30M Chinese tourists.
2. More relevant is that Thailand make all Chinese tourists apply for a visa, and that doesn't seem to "anger the Chinese"!

The issue is about expats needing proof of income to get a permit to stay for 1 year. When/if the average Chinese become able to - and want to en masse - live in Thailand it might become an issue. Until then, as I said, there are very few expat Chinese relying on income letters - making your point irrelevant.

If you accept the fact that Thai immigration would not want to anger the Chinese ambassador then the same thing applies (perhaps a bit less but not much) to the UK, USA and Australian ambassadors.  Which lays the blame for the new policy directly with whom made the changes.  The embassies not Thai Immigration.  That's my point. 

[jmd8800]

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." --Daniel Moynihan.

 

This thread is a bit short on facts and heavy on opinions.

[JackThompson]

2 hours ago, sumrit said:

For those of us from the UK we have been showing the Embassy that: pension income, investment income, etc and bank statements showing those various payment incomes to enable us to get our income letters, we couldn't just pick a figure out of the air and lie in an affidavit as you could in some countries Embassies.  

As I understand it, there was no checking with the sources, so you could present any photo-shopped thing, and get a letter.  Was this possible without swearing under penalty of perjury (felony-charge if lying), as USA and AU folks had to do?

 

Of course, one would still have to lie to an RTP IO, to use faked financial-info - letter or not.

 

2 hours ago, sumrit said:

Like me, a lot of people have income from several different sources. The Embassy are not accountants, they cannot be expected to contact each and every different type of income source from every single applicant to verify everybody's actual income. And that's assuming everybody has correctly asked for their information to be released under the data protection laws.

The US Dept of State forbids US consulate personnel from doing any checking/validation of any document - so we had a similar situation.

 

2 hours ago, sumrit said:

In the past, there probably wasn't a lot of people fiddling the system so everything was more relaxed but over the years it seems more and more started manipulated their income letters and used agents to fiddle the system until we've reached today's problems. If you want to blame anybody, blame the people who've been on the fiddle and stayed in Thailand illegally for years. We're suffering the new restrictions because of them. 

Mixing 2 things there - faked-letters and agents.  The embassy-letters were getting in the way of the agent-laundered money-stream to immigration offices across the country, as they provided an alternative for those who didn't have the 800K in cash to park.   I believe this "competition" to their under-the-table revenue (from immigration's perspective) is why the pressure to dump the letters arose in the first place. 

 

Agent-applications with faked-finances are still more welcome than honest in-person applications at many offices.  These avoid not only the financials, but home-visits, TM-30 reporting, and other per-office "add-on requirements" which may be added to encourage agent-use.

 

2 hours ago, marcusarelus said:

Just how is Thailand going to confirm that the Chinese embassy is actually verifying income?  Are they going to threaten not to let the 30 million Chinese tourists come to Thailand in 2019?  Think a little bit about the real world. 

Tourists only need a bank-statement showing 20K Baht worth to get a Tourist Visa - though most come in Visa-On-Arrival, so don't even need to show that.  But, if there were an issue, the Chinese would likely send over someone with a suitcase full of cash, and their letters would be treated as golden-passes.  They understand how things work here.

 

57 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

The problem is 4 embassies changed policy. 

... after being told something at a meeting in May, evidently - though there appears to be no official notes or transcripts we can get made-public.  But I do think the embassies should have continued the letters - complete with the legal disclaimers that have been on them for years - and let Thailand take the first step, by refusing to recognize them any more.  Why they had to "go first" by canceling the letters, letting Thailand take their sweet-time publishing a new police-order (per the US Consul's interview) after the fact, I have no idea.

[jmd8800]

3 hours ago, balo said:

 

 

Are you suggesting using 'an agent' ?

Not necessarily. One can go home and get a Non-imm O-A every two years if those rules don't change. There are options. Whether that is in someone's best interest or not is an individual choice.

 

Whatever comes of this it would be wise for everyone to have a plan B (C,D & E) if necessary. Also, it would be helpful if people on TVF stuck to facts and kept their opinions out of it. I know one person who reacted to this situation because of 'info' he learned here and he is already regretting it.

[OliverKlozerof]

1 hour ago, jmd8800 said:

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." --Daniel Moynihan.

 

This thread is a bit short on facts and heavy on opinions.

Back on page 191 I clicked "notify me of replies." Unclick.

[elviajero]

1 hour ago, JackThompson said:

Mixing 2 things there - faked-letters and agents.  The embassy-letters were getting in the way of the agent-laundered money-stream to immigration offices across the country, as they provided an alternative for those who didn't have the 800K in cash to park.   I believe this "competition" to their under-the-table revenue (from immigration's perspective) is why the pressure to dump the letters arose in the first place.

Never one to miss a conspiracy theory, Jack!

 

Or in the real world the number of applicants are increasing; therefore the number of fraudulent applicants is increasing - meaning the TIB want confirmed verification of income rather than a worthless pieces of paper that proves nothing. It's just another loophole that some people have taken advantage of that is possibly being closed.

[elviajero]

1 hour ago, marcusarelus said:

If you accept the fact that Thai immigration would not want to anger the Chinese ambassador then the same thing applies (perhaps a bit less but not much) to the UK, USA and Australian ambassadors.  Which lays the blame for the new policy directly with whom made the changes.  The embassies not Thai Immigration.  That's my point. 

I doubt the TIB give a stuff about the Chinese Ambassador. I don't think your Chinese angle is relevant, because the Chinese aren't being affected. My point was that the Chinese are already disadvantaged over many western nationals and there is no backlash.

Edited January 2, 2019 by elviajero

[mogandave]

Now we are getting to my point.  You wrote, " What have Chinese tourists got to do with it!?"  Do you think the Chinese are afraid of legal implications?  Or that the Thais would dare anger the Chinese?  Why?  Because of 30 million Chinese tourists. 

This really has nothing to do with tourism.

[jacko45k]

14 hours ago, marcusarelus said:

In America one is innocent until proven guilty.  I guess you are not from a free country with a reputable system of jurisprudence. 

Whose people are quite prepared to lie and attest to that lie to achieve their aims. Which, by the way does not surprise me. 

[garyk]

1 hour ago, jacko45k said:

Whose people are quite prepared to lie and attest to that lie to achieve their aims. Which, by the way does not surprise me. 

Kinda funny everyone bashing the U.S. for lying. I have a neighbor living here from Germany. I asked him about the letter. He told me very few of his German friends have the funds. They get the letter and then alter it?

So, IMO everyone is guilty. 

 

Does anyone know if or when the Thai immigration will have an announcement?  

Edited January 3, 2019 by garyk

[bkk6060]

1 hour ago, garyk said:

 

 

Does anyone know if or when the Thai immigration will have an announcement?  

My friend at Immigration told me it should be this month.

 

My opinion is that it will be simplified.  Show 65,000 b ( or whatever amount they decide) going into a Thai Bank account every month, or the 800,000 b route.  I do not think they will make you verify where the 65,000 b is coming from as long as it is in going your Thai account.

 

No way can they have a verification of income table at immigration.

 

The people who cannot show the 65,000 have the option of nothing or going to an agent who I am sure will be able to manipulate an account to show the 65,000 as the do now for the 800,000.  With this, Immigration does not care and actually encourages this as it is big money for them.  They like agents for the money, 99% of the time their paperwork is in order,  and they do not have to hassle with farang verbal BS at the desks.

 

We will se soon should be interesting..

[Pattaya46]

20 minutes ago, bkk6060 said:

My opinion is that it will be simplified.

Show 65,000 b () going into a Thai Bank account every month, or the 800,000 b route.

Very unlikely. It would put way too many expats in trouble if they removed the Embassy Letter option and the Combo option. So it will more probably be a "complification" by adding a 4th option special for US, UK and other letter-refusing countries.

[marcusarelus]

10 hours ago, elviajero said:

I doubt the TIB give a stuff about the Chinese Ambassador. I don't think your Chinese angle is relevant, because the Chinese aren't being affected. My point was that the Chinese are already disadvantaged over many western nationals and there is no backlash.

I just picked the Chinese because I thought you might understand better.  I was wrong.  My point was that Thai Immigration does not want to anger any embassy because of the importance of tourism to the GDP and Foreign exchange monies coming into the country.  This was clearly not a Thai sponsored change it was 4 embassies who are lazy. 

[mogandave]

I just picked the Chinese because I thought you might understand better.  I was wrong.  My point was that Thai Immigration does not want to anger any embassy because of the importance of tourism to the GDP and Foreign exchange monies coming into the country.  This was clearly not a Thai sponsored change it was 4 embassies who are lazy. 

Too lazy to lie?

How would the US embassy verify someone’s stated income?

Again, the US embassy never provided income verification.

[marcusarelus]

1 minute ago, mogandave said:

 

Too lazy to lie?

How would the US embassy verify someone’s stated income?

Again, the US embassy never provided income verification.

Too lazy to process the paperwork and have a low paid employee stand at a window greet citizens. 

[ubonjoe]

2 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

Too lazy to process the paperwork and have a low paid employee stand at a window greet citizens. 

As said by myself and others in this topic and others the US consular sections are not allow by regulations to verify or certify any document. That is why it was done as an affidavit.

[bkk6060]

1 minute ago, ubonjoe said:

As said by myself and others in this topic and others the US consular sections are not allow by regulations to verify or certify any document. That is why it was done as an affidavit.

I will ask you a question.

Not a confrontation but I have my personal reasons why.

 

If the US Embassy told the Thai authorities:  We cannot verify pension income because there is no government pension in the US.

What is your opinion on this statement?

thanks

[mogandave]

Too lazy to process the paperwork and have a low paid employee stand at a window greet citizens. 

They still process paperwork and sill have people (low paid or otherwise) standing at the window greeting citizens.

You really think the effort it took to have you hold your hand up and swear then rubber-stamp your document is what this is about?

If so, you think all the employees got together and met with the Ambassador and complained about the workload and this was the solution the cane up with?

[ubonjoe]

3 minutes ago, bkk6060 said:

If the US Embassy told the Thai authorities:  We cannot verify pension income because there is no government pension in the US.

What is your opinion on this statement?

They would not say that since it is not true.

Social security is a government administered pension, there is also pension plans for government employees and retired military that get a pension.

[marcusarelus]

12 minutes ago, bkk6060 said:

I will ask you a question.

Not a confrontation but I have my personal reasons why.

 

If the US Embassy told the Thai authorities:  We cannot verify pension income because there is no government pension in the US.

What is your opinion on this statement?

thanks

Federal civilian pensions were offered under the Civil Service Retirement System (CSRS), formed in 1920. CSRS provided retirement, disability and survivor benefits for most civilian employees in the federal government, until the creation of a new federal agency, the Federal Employees Retirement System (FERS), in 1987.

[jmd8800]

39 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

Federal civilian pensions were offered under the Civil Service Retirement System (CSRS), formed in 1920. CSRS provided retirement, disability and survivor benefits for most civilian employees in the federal government, until the creation of a new federal agency, the Federal Employees Retirement System (FERS), in 1987.

CSRS is a bit dated don't you think:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Service_Retirement_System

 

I think most people receiving something from the US gov't here on TVF receive Social Security:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Security_(United_States)

 

Then you'd have to verify individual sources of private income to help those with less than the required amount to satisfy Thai Imm.

 

And then take into consideration just how many expats on retirement / marriage extensions there are in Thailand that needs this service. Probably very few in the big picture. Plus I doubt there are too many other countries that have similar requirements. Not going to happen for a few thousand people.

 

But the most important response to your idea that the Embassy / Consular affairs is just plain lazy is: There are legal frameworks in place that just don't allow for verifying someone's income. I am not an attorney (and I don't suppose you are either) but I think it would take a lot of work to set up a system where an Embassy could verify someones' income. You know...... privacy laws etc.

 

To put the blame on 'laziness' is unacceptable. People can sit in front of their computers all day dreaming of how they think things should be........ but at the end of the day this will not help anyone.

 

 

[zydeco]

14 hours ago, elviajero said:

Embassies who realise they can't continue issuing the letters in the current format, as they can't/won't verify the income, have decided not to issue anymore, presumably for fear of legal implications.

What legal implications? Thailand is going to sue the US government because a few odd Americans living in Thailand under Thai law lied on a US embassy notarized document saying the person claimed to have the money?

[marcusarelus]

30 minutes ago, jmd8800 said:

CSRS is a bit dated don't you think:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Service_Retirement_System

 

I think most people receiving something from the US gov't here on TVF receive Social Security:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Security_(United_States)

 

Then you'd have to verify individual sources of private income to help those with less than the required amount to satisfy Thai Imm.

 

And then take into consideration just how many expats on retirement / marriage extensions there are in Thailand that needs this service. Probably very few in the big picture. Plus I doubt there are too many other countries that have similar requirements. Not going to happen for a few thousand people.

 

But the most important response to your idea that the Embassy / Consular affairs is just plain lazy is: There are legal frameworks in place that just don't allow for verifying someone's income. I am not an attorney (and I don't suppose you are either) but I think it would take a lot of work to set up a system where an Embassy could verify someones' income. You know...... privacy laws etc.

 

To put the blame on 'laziness' is unacceptable. People can sit in front of their computers all day dreaming of how they think things should be........ but at the end of the day this will not help anyone.

Social security sends out letters every year as to how much social security a person receives (easy to check) Social security direct deposits in Thai banks monthly with notes as to where it came from, when and how the exchange rate - easy to check.  It is too easy to do.  Social security sends out a proof of life form every year - easy to check. 

[onera1961]

18 minutes ago, zydeco said:

What legal implications? Thailand is going to sue the US government because a few odd Americans living in Thailand under Thai law lied on a US embassy notarized document saying the person claimed to have the money?

Even if there is a possibility of one person lying (at least I know one person is lying for a decade and I suppose almost all his friends are doing the same as they told me how easy and hassle free it was before I got my O-A), why should the embassy take the risk of being an accomplice in their lying? 

Edited January 3, 2019 by onera1961

[mogandave]

Social security sends out letters every year as to how much social security a person receives (easy to check) Social security direct deposits in Thai banks monthly with notes as to where it came from, when and how the exchange rate - easy to check.  It is too easy to do.  Social security sends out a proof of life form every year - easy to check. 

While I agree it would be relatively easy to set up a system such that the embassy could confirm social security benefits, no system currently exists to do it.

Even if it did exist, it would still not (IMP) help most of the people that currently depend on the income letter.

[mogandave]

Social security sends out letters every year as to how much social security a person receives (easy to check) Social security direct deposits in Thai banks monthly with notes as to where it came from, when and how the exchange rate - easy to check.  It is too easy to do.  Social security sends out a proof of life form every year - easy to check. 

How would these things be easily checked?

[marcusarelus]

1 minute ago, mogandave said:

 

While I agree it would be relatively easy to set up a system such that the embassy could confirm social security benefits, no system currently exists to do it.

Even if it did exist, it would still not (IMP) help most of the people that currently depend on the income letter.

 

That's another question.  My only contention was the reasoning behind stopping the income letters. 

[marcusarelus]

1 minute ago, mogandave said:

How would these things be easily checked?

Bring SS letters and bank book to the American Embassy.  My bank today, BANGKOKBANK: SOCIAL SECURITY ADMINISTR has transferred THB xxxxxxxxx (usdxxxxxxxxxxx) FROM ABROAD INTO account number XXXXXXXX

[norbra]

I see that the notice is specific to Thailand,has anyone checked whether other embassies in the ASEAN region have also stopped this service? I dont use the income stream for my extensions but it may be helpful to others if they can get this "letter" from nearby countries