Build a house on an island, but protect myself against rip-off - playing with situations and laws/rules

[Badb0y]

At the moment I'm just playing with the thinking of have a house on an island. In the last couple of days I started to read about these things and thank you to Thai visas I just learnt that foreigner cannot own any land in Thailand (also read the terrible comments how many people ripped off), which makes me super angry, just condo but who  wants to live in a condo where they cannot even built a properly working canal system without any smell. This is an idiot law.

 

So at the moment I'm in my thirties, I don't even have enough money to build a house but in the next 2-3 years based on my calculation I'm going to have.

 

Many question came into my mind based on the samuiforsale website regarding USUFRUCT,SUPERFICIES.

 

Let's start the questions:

1. this is an unobvious completely, just thinking, so what if I apply for a Thai citizenship visa, I got the citizenship, after can I own a land? Once I buy the land I'll try to reapply to my original country citizenship, and let's say I got back my original, may I have the owner of the land ???? ?? Just playing with thinking here. I'm not even sure I can get back my original one.

 

2. How the big hotels can buy the complete lands even if the not Thai? The same rule true here as well, if you have money you can get exceptions .... ? Just an example in Phuket Amanpuri and The Surin super expensive hotels bought a complete mountain and even if nobody can be the owner of a beach anywhere, the mountain completely cover the beach so nobody can go there.

 

3. How about permanent resident? If I got the permanent resident visa, this is still not enough to buy any land?

 

Let's go the the building topic:

4. I'm from Europe and in Europe I can see how they build houses, there we don't have any problem like eg. when you go into the room in a resort you can smell mildew, the water is leaking when a big rain happens in the wall because they have no idea how to insulate. Or I don't want any smell in the toilet from the canal (maybe not canal, sorry for my English if bad regarding some technical stuffs). These are super basic things in Europe I have no idea why here these so difficult. So if I want to build a house with European standard in Koh Samet, how can I do it?

 

5. From the previous sentence you can see, my plan is to build a small house in Koh Samet, so I read as well, that on an island it is even worse to be owner of things, so if we buy a land, and unfortunately I can't be the owner of the land, if I build a house on it, how this USUFRUCT,SUPERFICIES laws works? So my question is, if I have a gf and she is the owner and I'm the owner of the house, if divorce happens, and eg. I don't want to move from the house, in the worst case scenario because she is the owner, she can even destroy the house? I read about superficies can be until lifetime, but how this works in real life? ("A right of superficies may be established either for 1- a period of time up to 30-years, or 2- for life of the owner of the land or 3- for the life of the superficiary.")

 

6. Where I have to go for example if I want to buy a land in Koh Samet? Rayong government office? The land that I want it is at the moment covered with trees, so I think need to have some stuffs like water, electric. In my opinion it is available that area because the opposite side of the road there is a resort.

 

7. I also read after marriage everything half half, but I'm sure we can define in the marriage contract, that who has what right? So even if we marry and it is defined who is the owner of what even divorce happens she can't take not even 1%.

 

8. All in all how can I protect myself the best way if I can't be the owner of a land. Many people live here so I'm sure there are some options.

 

+ please avoid to write off topic things like leave Thailand, or don't marry or live in a condo it is safe ...

Sorry for the long and many questions but I've already have 2 bad experiences with my 2 second exes, 3rd I want to avoid.

 

Thanks the help, any idea very appreciated.

[Badb0y]

Edit regarding the destroy. I found this section: Section 1415. The right of superficies is not extinguished by destruction of the buildings, structures or plantations even if caused by force majeure.

 

So maybe it means the land owner cannot destroy the house.

[taninthai]

Sounds more like a dream to me ,,,,stay Thailand for at least 5 years then think about buying land and building.

[geriatrickid]

1. You are not allowed to own land. Even the promoted lease concept gives you nothing because there are no guaranteed rights for foreigners in Thailand. The one exception are US nationals because their country has a treaty with Thailand on land ownership rights.

 

2. You may think you will have a Thai wife who will own the land on your behalf, but unless you  have magical powers and can predict the future, there is a strong likelihood that after 5 or 10 years, all that you will have is an ex-Thai wife  who will own the land and you will have nothing. Wait until you are settled and a few years have passed in the relationship before buying anything.

 

3. Now let's say you do buy the land and you build a home. Remember that there are no zoning codes, no protection for your  rights. If Somchai wants to open an abattoir next to your home, or a karaoke bar, or a garbage  dump, or a cement factory, Somchai  can.  If a wat wants to erect a big loudspeaker next to you and have chants at 05:00 hrs, they can. 

 

4. In Thailand, quality costs, And if you are in  a tourist destination, it will cost more, just because you are a foreigner. There are no building standards and few qualified tradespeople. Unless you have building trades experience or are prepared to hire an experienced supervisor, whatever you build will be of poor quality and will have defects. For example, you have to know something about electrical work or have someone who will watch the wiring go in and be able to inspect work done, to be sure that you are not electrocuted in the shower.  I know very little about electrical things, but I can follow instructions about grounding and cut offs.  The water heater in my shower was not installed properly and I could have been electrocuted had the European landlord not believed me and  checked the installation after the  alleged electrician was done. 

 

5. Anything can happen in Thailand. You have no civil rights and few if any legal rights. Unless you are wealthy and connected, you can easily lose everything that you have. Do not invest in property here unless you have a  family to house and are prepared to lose it in a worse case scenario.

Remember that Thailand is subject to catastrophic loss and that insurance  costs. Foreigners cannot collect under the Thai relief programs which are  restricted to Thais.

 

6. Rent until you have roots in Thailand, and/or are fluent in the language and/or have a family. Buying for the sake of buying is a bad choice. 

 

[Peterw42]

1) Thai citizenship is a long and not a simple process, it takes 10 years, you usually need a job in thailand for 3-5 years, you need to speak Thai. If you do all that then yes, you can own land.

 

2) Big hotels are Thai companies, Companies can own land, or they lease it.

 

3)Permanent residents still cannot own land.

 

4) If you have money you can build to any specification you like. Above a certain price point condos and houses are built to a high standard.

 

5) Userfruct etc can give you ongoing access to a property but any contracts between husband/wife made during marriage ends with the divorce. Talk to a lawyer.

 

6)Talk to the person selling the land. The sale/transfer would be done at the local land office but they are not selling the land.

 

7)Thai marriage/divorce is pretty straight forward, what you owned before marriage remains yours, acquired during marriage is split 50/50. A lawyer could advise on specific prenuptial agreements.

 

8)Talk to a lawyer. They can setup some levels of protection and ongoing access to a property, never 100% protection.

 

[Peterw42]

23 minutes ago, geriatrickid said:

The one exception are US nationals because their country has a treaty with Thailand on land ownership rights.

The amity treaty is a business treaty, it specifically does not allow land ownership.

 

The Thailand Treaty of Amity prohibits American investors from engaging in the following reserved activities:

• Communications
• Transportation;
• Fiduciary functions
• Banking involving depository functions;
• Land Ownership, Exploitation of land or
• Other natural resources; and
• Domestic trade in indigenous agricultural products.

https://www.siam-legal.com/Business-in-Thailand/US-Thai Amity.php

Edited November 1, 2018 by Peterw42

[Badb0y]

23 minutes ago, taninthai said:

Sounds more like a dream to me ,,,,stay Thailand for at least 5 years then think about buying land and building.

I'm working here and spending my 2nd year actually. Let's see.

[Badb0y]

20 minutes ago, geriatrickid said:

3. Now let's say you do buy the land and you build a home. Remember that there are no zoning codes, no protection for your  rights. If Somchai wants to open an abattoir next to your home, or a karaoke bar, or a garbage  dump, or a cement factory, Somchai  can.  If a wat wants to erect a big loudspeaker next to you and have chants at 05:00 hrs, they can. 

 

4. In Thailand, quality costs, And if you are in  a tourist destination, it will cost more, just because you are a foreigner. There are no building standards and few qualified tradespeople. Unless you have building trades experience or are prepared to hire an experienced supervisor, whatever you build will be of poor quality and will have defects. For example, you have to know something about electrical work or have someone who will watch the wiring go in and be able to inspect work done, to be sure that you are not electrocuted in the shower.  I know very little about electrical things, but I can follow instructions about grounding and cut offs.  The water heater in my shower was not installed properly and I could have been electrocuted had the European landlord not believed me and  checked the installation after the  alleged electrician was done.

3. yeah, that's terrible here, I can see in BKK some very pretty houses built around a big condos. I'm sure in the past it was a nice area, but now you cannot even see the sun.

 

4. I do have experience, I actually took part in my home renewal in my country and made many things. Furthermore have relatives in my family who are building houses and architect as well, but they are not here so I can just get them help to verify the shit here.

[CharlieH]

Forget it !

 

With the unstable Govt, rules and regs changing all the time just RENT.

 

Its cheap.and you can walk away whenerever you want and go try somewhere else in the area or other province in the country whenever you want to.

 

Stay flexible and fluid.

 

 

 

 

[Badb0y]

28 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

1) Thai citizenship is a long and not a simple process, it takes 10 years, you usually need a job in thailand for 3-5 years, you need to speak Thai. If you do all that then yes, you can own land.

 

2) Big hotels are Thai companies, Companies can own land, or they lease it.

 

4) If you have money you can build to any specification you like. Above a certain price point condos and houses are built to a high standard.

 

5) Userfruct etc can give you ongoing access to a property but any contracts between husband/wife made during marriage ends with the divorce. Talk to a lawyer.

 

6)Talk to the person selling the land. The sale/transfer would be done at the local land office but they are not selling the land.

 

8)Talk to a lawyer. They can setup some levels of protection and ongoing access to a property, never 100% protection.

 

1. So it looks like possible, good.

 

2. So like a dusit thani, holiday inn ... hotel chains owned by Thai companies? You mean they bought the franchise?

 

4. Is there any well known building companies or professionals who people can trust? When I saw in my condo when they are changing the wallpaper, I started to laugh. 4 people for a 5 sqm wall changing wallpaper took 2 days. I asked my father usually they make it less then 1 day 1 person. (My father has a company and they are painting the building ). Here 2 people holding the ladder, one is working and one is bringing the stuffs to give them omfg. Terrible and ridiculous.

 

5. Divorce needs to people agreement if I'm not mistaken, so we can divorce but on paper I'll not agree it, it will nothing happens right?

 

6. This area nobody say it is for sale so I need to ask someone because I think the government is the owner at the moment of that land.

 

8. I hope Thai English speaking lawyers would be on my side if I pay for them ????

Edited November 1, 2018 by Badb0y

[Badb0y]

7 minutes ago, CharlieH said:

Forget it !

 

With the unstable Govt, rules and regs changing all the time just RENT.

 

Its cheap.and you can walk away whenerever you want and go try somewhere else in the area or other province in the country whenever you want to.

 

Stay flexible and fluid.

 

 

 

 

Yeah, but let's say you like an area somewhere and you want to go there on the weekends after work but there isn't anything on that are so you can't rent... But I got your point.

Or rent means rent a land or just like a room ???? ?

[Toosetinmyways]

I thought Koh Samet was a National Park. Is the occupied land leased from the parks department?

[CharlieH]

8 minutes ago, Badb0y said:

Yeah, but let's say you like an area somewhere and you want to go there on the weekends after work but there isn't anything on that are so you can't rent... But I got your point.

Or rent means rent a land or just like a room ???? ?

If you have a large sum of money you want to throw away, that you will never see again, carry on with your misguided dream, there will be a neverending queue of people waiting to relieve you of it.

 

If you are prepared and willing to "lose it all" , carry on.

 

Dont say you werent warned.

 

[Peterw42]

8 minutes ago, Badb0y said:

5. Divorce needs to people agreement if I'm not mistaken, so we can divorce but on paper I'll not agree it, it will nothing happens right?

 

6. This area nobody say it is for sale so I need to ask someone because I think the government is the owner at the moment of that land.

After a certain time period a divorce can be done by one party, if the other party is uncooperative.

 

Usually if something is for sale, it has a for sale sign on it. 

[Toosetinmyways]

15 minutes ago, Toosetinmyways said:

I thought Koh Samet was a National Park. Is the occupied land leased from the parks department?

Answered my own question from the National Parks website.

 

The Thai government restricted overnight stay on the island until 1981 (even though Bangkokians had known of the beauty of Ko Samet for decades). In that year, on 1 October, the Forestry Department of Thailand declared Ko Samet and environs to be a national park.[

[Badb0y]

7 minutes ago, Toosetinmyways said:

Answered my own question from the National Parks website.

 

The Thai government restricted overnight stay on the island until 1981 (even though Bangkokians had known of the beauty of Ko Samet for decades). In that year, on 1 October, the Forestry Department of Thailand declared Ko Samet and environs to be a national park.[

National park means cannot build on it?

There are still many construction works there. They have a gate where you have to pay the entry fee for the national park but have a huge amount of properties which are built I'm sure later then that time.

[scorecard]

1 hour ago, taninthai said:

Sounds more like a dream to me ,,,,stay Thailand for at least 5 years then think about buying land and building.

Why 5 years?

[scorecard]

50 minutes ago, Badb0y said:

I'm working here and spending my 2nd year actually. Let's see.

Do you have a work permit since you started work and have you submitted your annual Thai personal income tax return and has it been finalized by the Thai Revenue Department (Thai Tax office).

 

Because if your thinking of applying for Thai permanent residency or Thai citizenship at least 3 years of continuous work permits and proof that your Thai taxes have been finalized is a critical factor. 

 

 

[scorecard]

9 minutes ago, Badb0y said:

National park means cannot build on it?

There are still many construction works there. They have a gate where you have to pay the entry fee for the national park but have a huge amount of properties which are built I'm sure later then that time.

Maybe true and many of the buildings will be government agencies.

 

Even if there are some family houses you cannot build a family house on national park land. 

 

 

[thaiguzzi]

2 hours ago, Badb0y said:

At the moment I'm just playing with the thinking of have a house on an island. In the last couple of days I started to read about these things and thank you to Thai visas I just learnt that foreigner cannot own any land in Thailand (also read the terrible comments how many people ripped off), which makes me super angry, just condo but who  wants to live in a condo where they cannot even built a properly working canal system without any smell. This is an idiot law.

 

So at the moment I'm in my thirties, I don't even have enough money to build a house but in the next 2-3 years based on my calculation I'm going to have.

Oh dear.

Another number, another statistic.

I'll get the popcorn................ 

[scorecard]

"so I think need to have some stuffs like water, electric. In my opinion it is available that area because the opposite side of the road there is a resort."

 

Maybe the electricity and water is coming from a government utility, but maybe in a location like you refer to it's more costly to get the connection to a residence.

 

In many locations big resorts generate their own electricity and have built their own water storage.

 

What about internet? If you want Internet connection is there a signal available in the location you refer to? If not an ISP company will charge an arm and a leg to get it established.

 

 

[Badb0y]

14 minutes ago, scorecard said:

Do you have a work permit since you started work and have you submitted your annual Thai personal income tax return and has it been finalized by the Thai Revenue Department (Thai Tax office).

 

Because if your thinking of applying for Thai permanent residency or Thai citizenship at least 3 years of continuous work permits and proof that your Thai taxes have been finalized is a critical factor. 

 

 

Yes I do, I work for a company here.

[Badb0y]

11 minutes ago, thaiguzzi said:

Oh dear.

Another number, another statistic.

I'll get the popcorn................ 

Have fun ????

[scorecard]

Just now, Badb0y said:

Yes I do, I work for a company here.

So you should make sure you keep copies of all your WP application and renewal documents, and progressively keep copies of every page in your WP book, also copies of all your annual personal Thai tax returns and especially the annual document which comes back from the tax office (the Thai Revenue Department) each year indicating it's been finalized for the previous year (Jan to Dec each year).

[Badb0y]

8 minutes ago, scorecard said:

"so I think need to have some stuffs like water, electric. In my opinion it is available that area because the opposite side of the road there is a resort."

 

Maybe the electricity and water is coming from a government utility, but maybe in a location like you refer to it's more costly to get the connection to a residence.

 

In many locations big resorts generate their own electricity and have built their own water storage.

 

What about internet? If you want Internet connection is there a signal available in the location you refer to? If not an ISP company will charge an arm and a leg to get it established.

 

 

These are advanced questions ???? This will come later ????

[taninthai]

56 minutes ago, scorecard said:

Why 5 years?

At least 5 years,,,by this time will have proper knowledge and experience of how things operate here  also might have made some Thai friends that can trust,personally for me I waited 8 years before commiting to purchase use of a land plot,by this time all the locals knew me and have people around me I can trust 100%????????????????

[scorecard]

14 minutes ago, taninthai said:

At least 5 years,,,by this time will have proper knowledge and experience of how things operate here  also might have made some Thai friends that can trust,personally for me I waited 8 years before commiting to purchase use of a land plot,by this time all the locals knew me and have people around me I can trust 100%????????????????

Understand and good logic.

 

I asked you the question because some farang believe that PR and/or citizenship is automatic after 5 or 10 years, this is totally false. 

 

[GLewis]

5 hours ago, Badb0y said:

 

Let's start the questions:

1. this is an unobvious completely, just thinking, so what if I apply for a Thai citizenship visa, I got the citizenship, after can I own a land? Once I buy the land I'll try to reapply to my original country citizenship, and let's say I got back my original, may I have the owner of the land ???? ?? Just playing with thinking here. I'm not even sure I can get back my original one.

You need to do some due diligence before you even think about this plan anymore. The above paragraph shows your complete lack of knowledge of anything about Thailand.  Why not buy an existing hotel like a Hilton and build a penthouse on the top for yourself. You have just as much chance of success. Sorry to be harsh, but dreaming and planning are two different things entirely 

[Badb0y]

You need to do some due diligence before you even think about this plan anymore. The above paragraph shows your complete lack of knowledge of anything about Thailand.  Why not buy an existing hotel like a Hilton and build a penthouse on the top for yourself. You have just as much chance of success. Sorry to be harsh, but dreaming and planning are two different things entirely 

You know if I know everything I don’t ask. The topic title I think completely understandable and shows that thinking, especially in this point.

[natway09]

At your age, I think you have the cart before the horse