Ireland says UK cannot unilaterally scrap border backstop

[melvinmelvin]

1 hour ago, My Thai Life said:

Given that the border issue has become the key sticking point, I'm surprised there hasn't been more attention given to it. And I don't just mean on this forum.

 

Borders have two sides re customs. In a WTO Brexit the UK is free to recognise Irish/EU standards, therefore the UK side does not need hard inspection points for imports from Ireland.

 

What the Irish/EU do at their side of the border is their business.

 

It shouldn't be forgotten that there already is a border. Many rules are different on either side of that border: currencies, excise duties, VAT, personal taxation, consumer protection... these are already managed by both jurisdictions – but away from the border.

 

agree, both the border on the green Island and

Gibraltar-Spain border deserve some more light shed on them

 

but to the title of this thread,

seems to me it suggests that UK cannot unilaterally revoke Brexit,

or more to the point - decide to go for a no deal Brexit

 

would be interesting to see some legal justification for that

 

[My Thai Life]

31 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

but to the title of this thread,

seems to me it suggests that UK cannot unilaterally revoke Brexit,

or more to the point - decide to go for a no deal Brexit

Since the OP the ECJ has confirmed that A50 can be unilaterally revoked. And May's withdrawal agreement does agree that the UK cannot unilaterally scrap the Irish backstop (which is one of the main reasons that it will not be accepted in Parliament). The OP has no impact on no deal, but it does on a negotiated FTA, see below. But these things are peripheral to the question of how the border would actually work, which is what I'd really like to see more clarity on - I've read pretty widely about this topic, and I've posted a few of the most useful links here already, but no-one that I've read has really gone into the issue in a practical realistic way.

 

The EU have said that a negotiated Free Trade agreement cannot introduce a hard border. But it is the EU which in theory needs the hard border - because over time UK standards will diverge from the EU's - though of course UK exporters to the EU will maintain conformance to EU standards, just as all other 3rd country exporters to the EU do. In practice, on Brexit day 1 standards will be completely harmonised anyway of course. Significant divergence will not happen overnight.

 

So it's the EU that needs the checks, not the UK. Of course, numerous suggestions have been made as to how these checks can be managed without a hard border. But my point here is that this is the EU's problem, not the UK's. The UK, by recognising EU standards, does not need import inspection facilities over and above those that already exist.

 

For the EU to say English/Welsh/Scottish goods destined for Northern Ireland must be cleared for EU standards is a clear over-reach of EU authority. It is meddling in UK sovereignty, which is the principal reason people voted to leave in the first place.

 

The UK may as well say to the EU/Ireland "if you can't clear UK goods into Ireland adequately, then you'll have to put customs clearance points between Ireland and the EU".

 

 

[malagateddy]

Since the OP the ECJ has confirmed that A50 can be unilaterally revoked. And May's withdrawal agreement does agree that the UK cannot unilaterally scrap the Irish backstop (which is one of the main reasons that it will not be accepted in Parliament). The OP has no impact on no deal, but it does on a negotiated FTA, see below. But these things are peripheral to the question of how the border would actually work, which is what I'd really like to see more clarity on - I've read pretty widely about this topic, and I've posted a few of the most useful links here already, but no-one that I've read has really gone into the issue in a practical realistic way.
 
The EU have said that a negotiated Free Trade agreement cannot introduce a hard border. But it is the EU which in theory needs the hard border - because over time UK standards will diverge from the EU's - though of course UK exporters to the EU will maintain conformance to EU standards, just as all other 3rd country exporters to the EU do. In practice, on Brexit day 1 standards will be completely harmonised anyway of course. Significant divergence will not happen overnight.
 
So it's the EU that needs the checks, not the UK. Of course, numerous suggestions have been made as to how these checks can be managed without a hard border. But my point here is that this is the EU's problem, not the UK's. The UK, by recognising EU standards, does not need import inspection facilities over and above those that already exist.
 
For the EU to say English/Welsh/Scottish goods destined for Northern Ireland must be cleared for EU standards is a clear over-reach of EU authority. It is meddling in UK sovereignty, which is the principal reason people voted to leave in the first place.
 
The UK may as well say to the EU/Ireland "if you can't clear UK goods into Ireland adequately, then you'll have to put customs clearance points between Ireland and the EU".
 
 

Far as I'm concerned..the irish and eu can go forth and multiply

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[melvinmelvin]

28 minutes ago, malagateddy said:

Far as I'm concerned..the irish and eu can go forth and multiply

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ok.

but showing off my lack of command of the English language, I need to ask;

where does that leave NI and the border between Ireland and NI?

 

[malagateddy]

ok.
but showing off my lack of command of the English language, I need to ask;
where does that leave NI and the border between Ireland and NI?
 

It's the eu/eire that are making a big fuss..NOT THE UK

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[My Thai Life]

30 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

ok.

but showing off my lack of command of the English language, I need to ask;

where does that leave NI and the border between Ireland and NI?

Its the EU/Ireland that need to consider whether they need to alter their border processes for importing from the UK across the NI border. The UK doesnt need to change anything material for importing form Ireland as we will continue to recognise EU standards.

 

Ive posted a few links in the past about how light customs processes could work. But whats been missing from the debate (and not just on this forum) is the question of who is responsible for making the changes, if indeed any are actually required.

 

The EU has been saying that its the UKs responsibility, but the reality is that the UK wont need to change anything on our side of the border, and the UK has no sovereign authority on Irelands side of the border.

Edited December 14, 2018 by My Thai Life

[welovesundaysatspace]

What will likely happen is:

 

1. The UK will most likely realize the risks of a no-deal Brexit, so they will either agree to the deal or cancel Brexit altogether. I still think a no-deal Brexit is the most unlikely outcome. 

 

2. In the unlikely case of a no-deal Brexit, there won’t be a hard border immediately on Day-1. Since most products coming in will be aligned with EU standards, there is not immediate need. Further, once the impact of a no-deal Brexit has hit the UK, they will sooner or later come back and agree to the proposed deal. 

 

3. In the (even more unlikely) case of a no-deal Brexit and nothing being agreed in the weeks after, Ireland will have to implement border checks. To what extent this will put the Irish peace at risk or not will be seen. For example, Ireland might opt to move some of the border checks further away from the actual border to make the hard border appear less hard. 

[tebee]

On 11/6/2018 at 7:38 AM, Jip99 said:

 

 

17 million people disagree with you....... so that's it basically.

...out of the 62 million in the UK

[vogie]

3 minutes ago, tebee said:

...out of the 62 million in the UK

Babies and children I believe were ineligible to vote.

[brewsterbudgen]

Babies and children I believe were ineligible to vote.

There's likely to be an even bigger turnout for the next referendum - and hopefully 16/17 year olds will get a vote as it's young people's futures that will be affected.

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[vogie]

8 minutes ago, brewsterbudgen said:

There's likely to be an even bigger turnout for the next referendum - and hopefully 16/17 year olds will get a vote as it's young people's futures that will be affected.

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If there is another vote the general concensus is that it will not be hugely popular and under subscribed as people are sick to death of voting. 

So you are putting the future of our country in the hands of children whose only talent is a X Box or similar, not smart.

[malagateddy]

There's likely to be an even bigger turnout for the next referendum - and hopefully 16/17 year olds will get a vote as it's young people's futures that will be affected.

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With no working/ life experience..being brain-washed by likes of Soros.Blair.Clegg.etc..and many other professional pro eu liars!!!

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[jak2002003]

12 minutes ago, vogie said:

If there is another vote the general concensus is that it will not be hugely popular and under subscribed as people are sick to death of voting. 

So you are putting the future of our country in the hands of children whose only talent is a X Box or similar, not smart.

How can people be sick to death of voting?  We only voted once to leave Europe!

 

Older people, say over retirement age, should not be allowed to vote in this matter, as its not going to made a scrap of difference to their lives (they will be dead and buried before the worst hits).  

 

Also brain function decreases with age, so these old Dads Army, raciest, God save the Queen, flag waving old duffers are only thinking about themselves. 

 

 

[tebee]

9 minutes ago, jak2002003 said:

How can people be sick to death of voting?  We only voted once to leave Europe!

 

Older people, say over retirement age, should not be allowed to vote in this matter, as its not going to made a scrap of difference to their lives (they will be dead and buried before the worst hits).  

 

Also brain function decreases with age, so these old Dads Army, raciest, God save the Queen, flag waving old duffers are only thinking about themselves. 

 

 

Brexit is an old person's fantasy - very few of the young support it - which means it will almost certainly be reversed in a few years if it happens. It will all be a great waste of time and effort.

 

 

 

[nontabury]

15 minutes ago, jak2002003 said:

How can people be sick to death of voting?  We only voted once to leave Europe!

 

Older people, say over retirement age, should not be allowed to vote in this matter, as its not going to made a scrap of difference to their lives (they will be dead and buried before the worst hits).  

 

Also brain function decreases with age, so these old Dads Army, raciest, God save the Queen, flag waving old duffers are only thinking about themselves. 

 

 

 

It’s a Fact , that the majority of the older voters have children and grandchildren. And you will find that in addition to having life experiance, their one concern in life, is the welfare and future of their offsprings.

They don’t give a dam about their future prospect,unlike some selfish remainers. I just hope that you live long enough to produce children and grandchildren, then you will realise,what life is about.

 

Edited December 14, 2018 by nontabury

[vogie]

15 minutes ago, jak2002003 said:

How can people be sick to death of voting?  We only voted once to leave Europe!

 

Older people, say over retirement age, should not be allowed to vote in this matter, as its not going to made a scrap of difference to their lives (they will be dead and buried before the worst hits).  

 

Also brain function decreases with age, so these old Dads Army, raciest, God save the Queen, flag waving old duffers are only thinking about themselves. 

 

 

Are you raciest?

[malagateddy]

How can people be sick to death of voting?  We only voted once to leave Europe!
 
Older people, say over retirement age, should not be allowed to vote in this matter, as its not going to made a scrap of difference to their lives (they will be dead and buried before the worst hits).  
 
Also brain function decreases with age, so these old Dads Army, raciest, God save the Queen, flag waving old duffers are only thinking about themselves. 
 
 

Wrong.wrong.wrong..they were and continue to think the best way forward for younger members of their families

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[tebee]

28 minutes ago, malagateddy said:

Wrong.wrong.wrong..they were and continue to think the best way forward for younger members of their families

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but it's not what those younger members want by an overwhelming majority.

 

Do you think in years to come they will  thank or resent you for forcing your opinion over theirs ?

[Mavideol]

On 11/6/2018 at 1:38 PM, Jip99 said:

 

 

17 million people disagree with you....... so that's it basically.

they disagree because they were mislead on the vote questions

[Mavideol]

On 11/6/2018 at 9:44 PM, Retiredandhappyhere said:

The first part of your sentence is just a remainer's dream and it is parliament who will have a say in either accepting or rejecting any proposed deal.  However, rejecting any proposed deal will, as further negotiations will not subsequently be possible, automatically result in a "no deal" situation,, which will not be of benefit to anyone, either in the UK or in the EU.

 

Perhaps the remainers and members of the Labour party will at least feel some satisfaction at the chaos that their infighting in parliament will have caused, rather than accepting the result of the referendum and working to ensure the best possible result for the country in what they consider to be adverse circumstances.

 

Constant attempts to reverse the decision to leave the EU have been detrimental to achieving a good negotiated agreement by giving false hope to the EU of keeping the UK within its stranglehold and thereby, in its eyes, strengthening the EU's negotiating position.  Anyone, who even at this stage, thinks that the EU is glad that the UK is leaving its club are mistaken, as clearly evidenced by their reaction when the result of the UK referendum was first known.  

 

A deal will be agreed at the eleventh hour as usual but of course, as almost half of the voters wanted to remain in the EU, it is only to be expected that they will not welcome any agreement with open arms.  However, whether they like it or not, we are leaving, whatever the final outcome of the negotiations turns out to be. 

why to expect a good deal and for whom the good deal??? UK was in the EU had it good why now they want to exit and still want it the same way as good as it was when they were members, or maybe they want better than when they were members, that's a non sense, they want to leave? let them leave and take the consequences, that's life, that's business, can't always win.... thus better accept the consequences of one's poor decisions

[malagateddy]

but it's not what those younger members want by an overwhelming majority.
 
Do you think in years to come they will  thank or resent you for forcing your opinion over theirs ?

No..they will listen to someone with lots of life experience..they will be told about Jean Monnet's infamous statement..how the British people were lied to and deceived by likes of Heath in the mid 70's...how a scumbag by name of Soros destroyed pound sterling in the early 90's and how the same scumbag..non British..is spending big money re trying to overturn a democratic vote for his own selfish financial reasons.
Of course they will also understand why another scummer aka war criminal blair is not to be trusted as he is a sociopath.
I could go on and on..but think that's enough for now[emoji6]

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[Mavideol]

On 11/7/2018 at 8:48 AM, vogie said:

I am sorry but W Churchill had nothing to do wih the rules of this referendum, Parliament set the rules, the country voted to leave the EU, I know you don't agree with the result, but that is democracy for you. 

so leave and stop asking for deals, just leave and be happy, why trying to get a deal and waste EU's time

[vogie]

9 minutes ago, Mavideol said:

they disagree because they were mislead on the vote questions

Well then why is there very little change in voters opinion in how they voted, you would have thought if you were to be believed that a vast majority of leavers would have changed their mind, this appears to be not the case.

[Mavideol]

On 11/7/2018 at 1:14 PM, vogie said:

It was not advisory, the government said that they would impliment what ever the British people voted for. But we can all spin it as much as we like, the top and bottom of it is, we voted to leave and after we have left there is no reason why our citizens cannot have another vote should they wish, but I think after this debacle I think the government will think twice about giving another referendum.

what about if the EU doesn't want the UK back.... did it ever cross the people's mind

[vogie]

2 minutes ago, Mavideol said:

what about if the EU doesn't want the UK back.... did it ever cross the people's mind

I would be like a dog with 2 d!(ks. ????????????

[tebee]

19 minutes ago, malagateddy said:

No..they will listen to someone with lots of life experience..they will be told about Jean Monnet's infamous statement..how the British people were lied to and deceived by likes of Heath in the mid 70's...how a scumbag by name of Soros destroyed pound sterling in the early 90's and how the same scumbag..non British..is spending big money re trying to overturn a democratic vote for his own selfish financial reasons.
Of course they will also understand why another scummer aka war criminal blair is not to be trusted as he is a sociopath.
I could go on and on..but think that's enough for now

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They will listen to someone with lots of biases - with a different world view than them.

 

You don't understand them - why do you think they will understand you ?

 

They a the new young rebels - they will fight to regain the rights you have callously torn away from them.

 

They will hate you for what you did.

 

The country will be hopelessly divided for years 

 

Nothing useful will get done - this will consume all of politics for the foreseeable future 

[malagateddy]

I would be like a dog with 2 d!(ks. [emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]

Me..I'd have 7..one for every day of the week[emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]

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[evadgib]

 

[malagateddy]

They will listen to someone with lots of biases - with a different world view than them.
 
You don't understand them - why do you think they will understand you ?
 
They a the new young rebels - they will fight to regain the rights you have callously torn away from them.
 
They will hate you for what you did.
 
The country will be hopelessly divided for years 
 
Nothing useful will get done - this will consume all of politics for the foreseeable future 

Tebee..you live in a nice quiet part of France..me..I'm over in Isaan for over 4 years now..but many of my friends and their families in my former home city in the UK are fed up with good reason re the influx of eastern european no users and the influx of muslims.
Me..I saw them arrive in the city for quite a few years before I moved to Thailand.
Not many of them work legally..but they take all the benefits. Crime is also becoming more and more a massive problem.
Why not move for a short time to one of France's " problem " cities and " get a taste of it ".
Walk the walk instead of talking the talk!!!

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[JAG]

7 hours ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

agree, both the border on the green Island and

Gibraltar-Spain border deserve some more light shed on them

 

but to the title of this thread,

seems to me it suggests that UK cannot unilaterally revoke Brexit,

or more to the point - decide to go for a no deal Brexit

 

would be interesting to see some legal justification for that

 

1

I don't think there is any legal justification.

A hard border between Northern Ireland and The Republic of Ireland is undesirable.

Neither country seems to want it.

But Ireland cannot actually forbid it.

The UK is a sovereign country (that is rather the whole point of the exercise) and therefore another country cannot tell it what it must do.

 

And before anyone gets too excited, and accuses me of wanting a hard border, I don't, I think a solution can and should be negotiated. But I also think that the whole matter is being manipulated to become a reason to prevent or deny Brexit, both within the EU and within the UK!