Expats need to organize in face of Embassies discontinuance of income verification letters

[anterian]

Quite a few years ago when the interest rate on my UK bank deposits dropped to 0.25 % and my Thai deposit was at 1.9 % I transferred much from England to Thailand, since then the falling value of the Pound has made this an even more sensible decision. I realise that people who have moved here recently may have problems, but I think anyone who has been here more than 10 years should have no excuse. 

[Daveyh]

Sadly, I can not be at this meeting, but I will support this all the way 100%. Perhaps we should get a petition going now & make all embassies aware that we are serious about taking this to our governments. The Embassies here don't do a great deal for us expats here, mostly their time is taken up looking after tourists who have problems whilst on holiday here. It is not a lot to ask our embassies to support their retirees & set up a method to verify our incomes for visas purposes that is acceptable to the Thai authorities & Immigration. It is nonsense to think they cannot do this. They have the power to do so as they represent our governments on all matters concerning their respective countries. In my opinion it's a case of not wanting to "go that further mile" to help those that have retired here, some for 20 years or more. Their attitude towards this very important issue is shameful & I can only hope that this reaches the ears of government, as it has left many, especially those in their twilight years, very worried about their immediate future. A sad state of affairs ............ any petition by us here will heard for sure if we all support this 100% ....... fact.   

[pookiki]

2 minutes ago, anterian said:

Quite a few years ago when the interest rate on my UK bank deposits dropped to 0.25 % and my Thai deposit was at 1.9 % I transferred much from England to Thailand, since then the falling value of the Pound has made this an even more sensible decision. I realise that people who have moved here recently may have problems, but I think anyone who has been here more than 10 years should have no excuse. 

If you have no concerns, that's all well and good.  But there are many of us who do have a number of concerns about putting 800,000 baht in a Thai bank account. We should have the right to air those concerns to our embassy official who have the responsibility to advocate on our behalf.  There are sensible solutions to this problem.  Let us be heard!

[Daveyh]

2 minutes ago, anterian said:

Quite a few years ago when the interest rate on my UK bank deposits dropped to 0.25 % and my Thai deposit was at 1.9 % I transferred much from England to Thailand, since then the falling value of the Pound has made this an even more sensible decision. I realise that people who have moved here recently may have problems, but I think anyone who has been here more than 10 years should have no excuse. 

You definitely need a reality check. There are many of us here who are not so "well heeled" as you appear to be & have been here longer than you. This attitude is typical of many of the expats here of "I'm alright jack" & boast about it. We need to pull together & support everyone on this, especially those living on state pensions with Thai families depending on them ..... fact.

 

[watcharacters]

5 minutes ago, pookiki said:

have a number of concerns about putting 800,000 baht in a Thai bank account.

 

Overall, I'd be of the mind that as guests  to Thailand we're simply forced/required to abide by any and whatever program the Thai government chooses to employ as residency requirements.    I wish it weren't that way but it's just the reality.

 

I agree about being required to maintain an 800K balance.    I'm not so concerned about the banks solvency as I am about being able to remove the baht from Thailand if I want to do so.    I'm going to visit the KBank branch to get the information from them first hand.

 

 

[BarnicaleBob]

Here is my take on how all this came about.  It is entirely the fault of US expats who bragged and other expats who were tattletales complaining about how the US expat COULD/MAYBE lie that all they had to do was to raise their right hand and say I swear.  In time, this got to the higher ups of immigration and then this Summer they started to demand supporting documents from US expats.  In the meantime immigration contacted all the embassies and told them they will now have to validate the expats income, which would require the embassies to research each statement applicant's financial background.  Of course, this would require additional manpower and expenses that none of the embassies were willing to pay.  This resulted in the embassies tell Thai Immigration, "No, we will not comply and in fact because you are so demanding about this, we will cease to offer this service.  Thus, all the embassies set January 1st as the end of notarized income statements.  So in the end, we only have ourselves to blame for this happening, thank you braggers and tattletales for bringing this upon us.

[pookiki]

3 minutes ago, watcharacters said:

 

Overall, I'd be of the mind that as guests  to Thailand we're simply forced/required to abide by any and whatever program the Thai government chooses to employ as residency requirements.    I wish it weren't that way but it's just the reality.

 

I agree about being required to maintain an 800K balance.    I'm not so concerned about the banks solvency as I am about being able to remove the baht from Thailand if I want to do so.    I'm going to visit the KBank branch to get the information from them first hand.

 

 

One issue you may also want to discuss is what you want to happen to your money in the event of your death.  I was told by a bank representative yesterday that I would need a will in Thailand to designate my beneficiaries and then it would be necessary for my beneficiaries to come to Thailand to 'probate' the will in the Thai court system.  Given this situation, I would rather minimize my exposure to the loss of money in the Thai banking system when I die.

[ParadiseLost]

There seems to be a common misconception here, that if you approach Thai Immigration, you can make them see the pain and suffering their actions have caused, they will suddenly make some provisions for long standing, law abiding retirees and spouses.

 

Well, may as well forget that, there is no compassion and the embassies are just as indifferent. They do not care about the human side, just numbers.

 

I have said this many times before and after 14 years it still remains true - it is your money that is wanted, you are merely condoned until the money is gone. Don't expect humane treatment, no right of appeal, just leave.

 

Remember, in the Thai narrow, xenophobic little mind everyone in the world wants to live in the paradise that is Thailand. Why - only they know... Same delusion they have about attracting 'quality tourists' when the country is almost continually in a state of chaos, and buildings look like a run down set from 'Walking Dead'.

[pookiki]

12 minutes ago, BarnicaleBob said:

Here is my take on how all this came about.  It is entirely the fault of US expats who bragged and other expats who were tattletales complaining about how the US expat COULD/MAYBE lie that all they had to do was to raise their right hand and say I swear.  In time, this got to the higher ups of immigration and then this Summer they started to demand supporting documents from US expats.  In the meantime immigration contacted all the embassies and told them they will now have to validate the expats income, which would require the embassies to research each statement applicant's financial background.  Of course, this would require additional manpower and expenses that none of the embassies were willing to pay.  This resulted in the embassies tell Thai Immigration, "No, we will not comply and in fact because you are so demanding about this, we will cease to offer this service.  Thus, all the embassies set January 1st as the end of notarized income statements.  So in the end, we only have ourselves to blame for this happening, thank you braggers and tattletales for bringing this upon us.

With all due respect -- conjecture and speculation on your part -- as you admit.  Bottom line -- are there suitable alternatives to satisfy everyone's concerns and status of their respective visa?  I think there are but we need to organize and proffer sensible and workable ideas.

Edited November 8, 2018 by pookiki
grammar

[wwest5829]

6 hours ago, watgate said:

I sent a message to you and basically it said I am currently residing in Chiang Mai or else I would be onboard with you in Bangkok. I concur that what was done by the US Embassy and Consulate was despicable. They basically took the easy way out and left the US Expat community out to dry. There was no accountability of these firmly entrenched government bureaucrats and they took the easy way out. There are many serious issues and potentially devastating effects to many expats who are currently residing in Thailand. These issues must be addressed by the US Embassy and Consulate and not swept under the rug for folks who have to navigate these serious concerns  themselves with no clear guidance or input into this matter by the US Embassy and Consulate.

While I will be watching with interest in this matter, as an American Expat, I need not renew my request for a retirement extension until mid year 2019 so I have leeway to see what shakes out. That said, I do not share your focus of blame on the American (British, Australian Embassies) as we would be acting out of ignorance. I do agree that we all should be informed as to what change has been made by Thai Immigration resulting in the Embassy reaction. Not that my opinion matters, but I certainly agree that the Kingdom of Thailand or any other sovereign nation has a right to determine if foreign residents have sufficient income to support themselves. (A side bar to remind all that most of us are rather sensitive to the idea of foreigners entering our country without sufficient financial support). Again, I agree that both Thai Immigration needs to explain any changes to the demand concerning the income affidavit. My suspicion is that Thailand wants the Embassies to do a more rigorous check on income and the Embassies saying that they do not have the resources nor the ability to accept diplomatic responsibility to do this confirmation.

[wwest5829]

12 minutes ago, pookiki said:

One issue you may also want to discuss is what you want to happen to your money in the event of your death.  I was told by a bank representative yesterday that I would need a will in Thailand to designate my beneficiaries and then it would be necessary for my beneficiaries to come to Thailand to 'probate' the will in the Thai court system.  Given this situation, I would rather minimize my exposure to the loss of money in the Thai banking system when I die.

I certainly agree and keep my funds in Thailand limited and separate from my children”s inhertance, such as it is. My attitude and action says, what comes to Thailand stays in Thailand. Thus, I have sold my condo and will rent going forward. My Sons will need not be bothered with my life in Thailand as there’s inheritance will go directly to them in the US. As to possessions and funds in Thailand? They will be left to the Thai lady sharing my life, as stated in my Thai Will. While I utilize the monthly required income, there will be no 800K deposited in Thailand. As a free man, there are other countries if Thailand chooses not to welcome me and my spending.

[ParadiseLost]

Regarding the use of a Thai foreign currency account, for extension; I asked at Samui Immigration if they accept them and was told a firm No - only THB.

 

Also, at the Bangkok Bank branch I use they claim they only provide the required letter for THB accounts.

 

I am hoping someone else has had a different experience there...

[pookiki]

14 minutes ago, wwest5829 said:

While I will be watching with interest in this matter, as an American Expat, I need not renew my request for a retirement extension until mid year 2019 so I have leeway to see what shakes out. That said, I do not share your focus of blame on the American (British, Australian Embassies) as we would be acting out of ignorance. I do agree that we all should be informed as to what change has been made by Thai Immigration resulting in the Embassy reaction. Not that my opinion matters, but I certainly agree that the Kingdom of Thailand or any other sovereign nation has a right to determine if foreign residents have sufficient income to support themselves. (A side bar to remind all that most of us are rather sensitive to the idea of foreigners entering our country without sufficient financial support). Again, I agree that both Thai Immigration needs to explain any changes to the demand concerning the income affidavit. My suspicion is that Thailand wants the Embassies to do a more rigorous check on income and the Embassies saying that they do not have the resources nor the ability to accept diplomatic responsibility to do this confirmation.

When I originally applied for my retirement visa at the Thai Los Angeles Embassy, I provided copies of my bank statement and copies of my Social Security monthly pension and a letter from the administrator of another pension plan with respect to my monthly pension benefit. Those documents were readily accepted to show my monthly retirement income.  Now, we are being told that the Embassy cannot verify such documents and/or that Thai immigration will not accept 'foreign' documents.  I must ask - if these documents were sufficient to get my original visa, what is the problem now? I see ways in which the embassy can 'tweak' the income affidavit to satisfy the concerns of Thai Immigration officials -- but has there been an earnest attempt by the embassies and Thai Immigration to find 'common ground'. I don't believe so.  It is also very important that the embassies give the expat community a 'voice' in how to address this matter in order to protect the interests of all involved.  I, for one, do not believe that there is no compassion by Thai immigration officials.  I have been treated with nothing but kindness and respect in all my visits to Thai immigration.  There are sensible and workable solutions to this issue.  All it takes are 'open' minds.

Edited November 8, 2018 by pookiki
grammar

[BarnicaleBob]

20 minutes ago, pookiki said:

With all due respect -- conjecture and speculation on your part -- as you admit.  Bottom line -- are there suitable alternative to satisfy everyone's concerns and status of their respective visa?  I think there are but we need to organize and proffer sensible and workable ideas.

Here is my experience this week when I did my annual extension:  On Monday, I decided to try extending without a income statement from the US Consulate.  I arrived at immigration armed with a notarized statement from my retirement company showing a monthly income well above the minimum, a computer printout from US Social Security showing income very near the minimum monthly income and a signed letter showing a large income from the Veteran's Administration.  In addition to the three documents I had a notarized letter from my CPA stating that they administer my finances, which showed what my total monthly income was, which is about three times the minimum required.  I also had copies of my income tax filings for the past two years.  I was told I still needed the income statement from the US Consulate.  I asked why, when they have stated is was no longer going to be honored starting in January.  Their answer was, "This is the rule".  I then asked for and talked to a supervisor who gave me the same reply.  My next question what will we need to use starting in January.  Her reply was, "800,000 baht in bank".  So it seems those of us that have been using income statements will have to open up a Thai bank account with 800,000 baht as there will no longer be any acceptable proof of income. 

So Tuesday I returned with my US Consulate income statement and all went well.  I feel it is a waste to have to transfer 800,000 baht from high interest earning accounts to an almost no interest Thai bank account.  But it looks like that will be our future here. 

 

 

 

Edited November 8, 2018 by BarnicaleBob

[Pattaya46]

16 minutes ago, wwest5829 said:

I do agree that we all should be informed as to what change has been made by Thai Immigration resulting in the Embassy reaction.

None. The request for an "Embassy Letter verifying your income" exists for many years. At least from 2011 on Bangkok Immigration website. So probably just a reminder of this point by TI.

Edited November 8, 2018 by Pattaya46

[Thaidream]

4 minutes ago, BarnicaleBob said:

Here is my experience this week when I did my annual extension:  On Monday, I decided to try extending without a income statement from the US Consulate.  I arrived at immigration armed with a notarized statement

Thanks for the report-  can you tell us what office you used for the extension?

[BarnicaleBob]

Just now, Thaidream said:

Thanks for the report-  can you tell us what office you used for the extension?

Chiang Mai immigration office. 

 

[Thaidream]

1 minute ago, BarnicaleBob said:

Chiang Mai immigration office. 

Thanks.  You were well prepared-  I also have similar proof.  Did they even want to see any of it or  did they just look at the Consulate letter and that was it?  

[Jeffrey346]

3 hours ago, john smith said:

A fraud trickster or liar I am not. Money in excess of 65000 is transferred monthly from the UK to my Thai bank.

I was informed by immigration at Hua Hin main office three days ago that 65000 is not acceptable unless accompanied by an Embassy letter and only 800000 will be accepted with the usual three month proviso. Obviously this could change

I was at Khon Kaen Immigration today doing my 90 day report. I asked if there are any financial changes. 

I was told 400,000/800,000B in the bank or an Embassy Affidavit is acceptable until we are advised otherwise.

Immigration has had no updates. 

[totally thaied up]

8 minutes ago, BarnicaleBob said:

Chiang Mai immigration office. 

20 minutes ago, BarnicaleBob said:

Her reply was, "800,000 baht in bank".

I was told the same yesterday. 

 

I was told to put 800/400 in the bank. I went to do my 90 day. I spoke to the staff and was told this. My agent was walking in the door as I was walking out and I asked the same questions.

 

Was given the same answer.

 

My wife then went to another IO and spoke to them and came back with the same answer.

 

Really, nobody is going to know what is going to happen next year but these were the answers I was told yesterday.

[newatthis]

2 hours ago, pookiki said:

However, it is clear that the US Embassy did nothing to conduct outreach meetings with its constituents to discuss this issue and seek input and advice from its affected constituents.  What happened is that the US expat community woke up one morning to learn of the decision of the US Embassy.  Is this the way an organization that advocates for its citizens is supposed to make decisions? 

I may sympathize with your predicament but the idea that an embassy should conduct meetings with expats to formulate policy seems a bit far-fetched. You cannot make policy decisions based on public opinion otherwise nothing would be accomplished.

[bkkgriz]

I think it's cute that some people think their embassy gives a flying <deleted> about its citizens abroad. Consulates are there to collect fees and embassies exist to give cover to spies and diplomats. Sorry boys and girls, but you are on your own when you decide to leave the tax plantation of the west. Better be cashed up or very crafty to live abroad these days.

[Suradit69]

1 hour ago, BarnicaleBob said:

Of course, this would require additional manpower and expenses that none of the embassies were willing to pay. 

And in many cases doing so would violate State Department policy (in the case of the US Embassy) and would probably hit numerous roadblocks in terms of American law or pension provider policy.

 

For some countries that have citizens in Thailand receiving a single government pension, verifying the source and amount might be possible, but many people receive retirement income from multiple non-government sources.

 

I agree with you that those who brag about their own deceit on income affidavits (or claim to know legions of friends who made fraudulent claims) and the loud-mouths (one in particular comes to mind) who harped on and on about the verification process, provoked the reaction ... just as the bragging over-stayers, the education visa scammers, et al have created other problems.

[Thaidream]

8 minutes ago, newatthis said:

may sympathize with your predicament but the idea that an embassy should conduct meetings with expats to formulate policy seems a bit far-fetched. You cannot make policy decisions based on public opinion otherwise nothing would be accomplished.

We are not talking about negotiating and setting a policy on Brexit; the US-China Trade War or the  Israeli-Palestinian  issue. 

 

The 3 Embassies in question have a Citizens Section- overseen by a Vice Consul ( who by the way is paid by  tax money). An issue as important as this that affects the lives of so many should have been handled better than this. 

 

 

Edited November 8, 2018 by Thaidream

[Suradit69]

1 hour ago, ParadiseLost said:

I have said this many times before and after 14 years it still remains true - it is your money that is wanted,

For what other reason would any government want foreigners to take up residence in their country? If you're not contributing to the economy why else would you be wanted? Did you think they found you charming and lovable?

 

The problem isn't that they are asking for anything new. The problem is that they've come to realize that people don't have the money available that they've been claiming via embassy letters.  If you've been saying you have at least Baht 65,000 or Baht 40,000 a month available and you don't, then you fail to meet the requirements that have existed for a very long time. Nothing has changed aside from realization that people are claiming something to be true which is not true, or at least which has not be reliably verified.

[Just Weird]

6 hours ago, cleverman said:

Complete and utter rubbish. I've relied on military pension embassy letter. Call me a liar ,fraudster to my face instead of hiding behind your keyboard. 

What he said was 100% correct, it was not "complete and utter rubbish".  If you can prove the income to Immigration you will not have a problem. 

 

And, if you are legitimate, it is very obvious that he was not calling you a liar!  Incidentally, how exactly would he be able to say that to your face, Mr Anonymous Forum Poster?

Edited November 8, 2018 by Just Weird

[cyberfarang]

3 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

Joe, I know ThaiVisa isn't exactly a news media outlet. But still, in the past, it seems to me there have been at least a few times when TVF has in some form reached out to Immigration on some issue and managed to get a statement from them clarifying some issue at the time (I think the issue of whether or not people needed to carry their original passports was one episode of that...).

 

In the wake of the announcements by the US, UK and Australia embassies regarding the cessation of income letters as a result of demands by Immigration, couldn't the current situation be a good reason for TVF to reach out to Immigration again and seek some official clarification of what will become of the monthly income method for extensions, in the absence of embassy income letters?  And what, if any, alternate monthly income documentation method(s) will be allowed from now on?

 

Has that even been considered or tried in the weeks now that all this ridiculous uncertainty and speculation has been going on?

 

 

There is nothing to reach out to immigration for.

 

Immigration accept the monthly income option with proof of source of income and an embassy confirmation letter, they have not changed their policy on this. So far 3 embassies have confirmed they will no longer issue the letters. I very much doubt Thai immigration will amend their rules and policies to accommodate the changes made by foreign embassies.  You`re caught between a rock and a hard place.

 

I fail to see the reasoning of those who do not want to bring over 800000 baht for peace of mind and less hassle. I`ve kept large sums of money, much much more than 800000 baht in Thai banks for over 20 years, never had a problem. In-fact I am receiving much better interest rates on my savings here in Thailand then back in the UK.

 

Those who have their money tied up in long term investments abroad are going to have to dip into those investments and bring the prescribed sums of monies over to Thailand if they wish to remain here, there are no ways around this that many will have to accept, swallow the bitter pill.

 

The bottom line here, is that our embassies do nothing for us, they are a total waste of time. Some years ago I was asked by the British embassy if I want to register with them. I could not see any benefits in doing so.

 

Sorry, guys, I know this is a bum deal and it`s going to cause hardships for many. But it`s happened, the likelihood of this changing is practically zero and somehow those using the monthly income options I.E. Australians, Brits and Americans so far, although I guess other embassies will follow, will have to find alternatives around this. 

[newatthis]

10 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

We are not talking about negotiating and setting a policy on Brexit; the US-China Trade War or the  Israeli-Palestinian  issue. 

 

The 3 Embassies in question have a Citizens Section- overseen by a Vice Consul ( who by the way is paid by  tax money). An issue as important as this that affects the lives of so many should have been handled better than this. 

 

 

OK, how could it have been handled better? It's not nice but they did give 2 months notice. Did you want 6 months notice? How about 12 months notice? What more could they do for you? Surely not a survey? Whatever they do, someone is going to be disappointed.

[Just Weird]

3 hours ago, Rama said:

 I do not want to put 800k in a thai bank however, too many horror stories over the years. 

What?  What horror stories?  Specifically, not anecdotally.

[soon2bexpat]

3 minutes ago, Suradit69 said:

For what other reason would any government want foreigners to take up residence in their country? If you're not contributing to the economy why else would you be wanted? Did you think they found you charming and lovable?

 

The problem isn't that they are asking for anything new. The problem is that they've come to realize that people don't have the money available that they've been claiming via embassy letters.  If you've been saying you have at least Baht 65,000 or Baht 40,000 a month available and you don't, then you fail to meet the requirements that have existed for a very long time. Nothing has changed aside from realization that people are claiming something to be true which is not true, or at least which has not be reliably verified.

I applaud you, this is the most common sense post on this topic.