Expats need to organize in face of Embassies discontinuance of income verification letters

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

1 hour ago, pookiki said:

When I originally applied for my retirement visa at the Thai Los Angeles Embassy, I provided copies of my bank statement and copies of my Social Security monthly pension and a letter from the administrator of another pension plan with respect to my monthly pension benefit. Those documents were readily accepted to show my monthly retirement income.  Now, we are being told that the Embassy cannot verify such documents and/or that Thai immigration will not accept 'foreign' documents.  I must ask - if these documents were sufficient to get my original visa, what is the problem now?solutions to this issue.  All it takes are 'open' minds.

 

The issue you raise above is one of the many imponderables about such policies and practices here.

 

I think I've learned long ago, that expecting logic and consistency to apply here is a failed cause.

 

But I certainly agree with the point you're making!

 

Kind of wonder whether any of the pencil sharpeners at the US or UK Embassies ever thought to raise that point during their meetings with Thai Immigration...

 

If they did, the probable answer was, Immigration is under the Justice Ministry, and the Embassies are under the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. So we each make our own rules, and they don't necessarily need to be the same or consistent.

 

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

6 minutes ago, Just Weird said:

What?  What horror stories?  Specifically, not anecdotally.

 

Plenty...and the long list of some of them have already been recounted in banking related threads here. So let's not pull this thread off topic.

 

[Just Weird]

1 hour ago, pookiki said:

One issue you may also want to discuss is what you want to happen to your money in the event of your death.  I was told by a bank representative yesterday that I would need a will in Thailand to designate my beneficiaries and then it would be necessary for my beneficiaries to come to Thailand to 'probate' the will in the Thai court system.  Given this situation, I would rather minimize my exposure to the loss of money in the Thai banking system when I die.

What do you expect if you come to live here!  Exactly the same thing, I.e. probate, happens in the West before bank account funds are distributed!  And money in Thai banks is not lost when the account holder dies if he makes the appropriate arrangements.

Edited November 8, 2018 by Just Weird

[Thaidream]

3 minutes ago, newatthis said:

OK, how could it have been handled better? It's not nice but they did give 2 months notice. Did you want 6 months notice? How about 12 months notice? What more could they do for you? Surely not a survey? Whatever they do, someone is going to be disappointed.

1.  Their meeting was in may 2018- they could have  stated exactly who called the meeting and the issue that was discussed in detail. It's called  Freedom of Information.

2.  they could have indicated that all 3 Embassies US/UK/AUS had proposed a solution and what it was

3  They could have  requested ideas or input in writing about potential solutions and outstanding issues.

4. they could have asked  representatives from their communities to attend focus groups to discuss potential solutions.

5.  They could have asked the  Human Resources committee of the  various Chambers of Commerce to give in put.

 

these 3 Nations operate on the philosophy of representative  discourse in which ALL stakeholders are given a chance to discuss issues and potential solutions.

 

 

[Vacuum]

3 hours ago, Rama said:

I do not want to put 800k in a thai bank however, too many horror stories over the years.

Exactly, that's what they are, stories.

[lkv]

17 minutes ago, soon2bexpat said:

I applaud you, this is the most common sense post on this topic.

 

 

+1

 

In all fairness, I will say this.

 

Have you guys ever heard of obtaining a Golden Visa in say Spain or the UK or whatever by not inputting money into that country, but by using some affidavit?

 

So, Chinese millionaire wants to get an UK visa but instead of forking 1 million pounds (if i remember the number correctly), shows an affidavit of his millions in China. 

 

Yes, it's true that in Thailand it's always an "extension of a temporary stay", but that's because of the mentality that everybody is a guest until they die, and that won't change soon. You knew or should have known when you moved here.

 

Not trusting Thai banks? Well, then it should be a factor to consider when moving to a foreign country. 

 

Not willing to transfer 800K because of better interest overseas? Great, explain that to the Government of Thailand, they will let you stay because you are a nice guy, as others have commented.

 

Want to move to Cambodia? What if next year they change the regulations also? Risk of living in a foreign country.

 

Embassy's fault? Embassies are here to provide consular support, they will neither take you out of jail if you get arrested nor mingle with local laws or whatever Immigration may consider acceptable proof for an extension.

Edited November 8, 2018 by lkv

[Thaidream]

9 minutes ago, soon2bexpat said:

  16 minutes ago, Suradit69 said:

For what other reason would any government want foreigners to take up residence in their country? If you're not contributing to the economy why else would you be wanted? Did you think they found you charming and lovable?

 

The problem isn't that they are asking for anything new. The problem is that they've come to realize that people don't have the money available that they've been claiming via embassy letters.  If you've been saying you have at least Baht 65,000 or Baht 40,000 a month available and you don't, then you fail to meet the requirements that have existed for a very long time. Nothing has changed aside from realization that people are claiming something to be true which is not true, or at least which has not be reliably verified.

You are correct about  Thailand wanting people who are solvent to reside and not become a burden on society.  How many people beat the system or lied or falsified documentation is unknown .  the issue has become- should applicants be required to prove income amount and source or just that they have money in the bank and how does one do that.  

 

If you just want money in the  bank , i can call a money lender and have 800K put into my bank now but if you want to know that I have the equivalent of 65K  each month- there are many ways to 'prove ' this.  I have no problem with proving it  just tell me what you want and the evidence you will accept and make it consistent with ALL Immigration offices, instead of  the many differences that exist from one office to another.

 

 

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

28 minutes ago, Suradit69 said:

The problem isn't that they are asking for anything new. The problem is that they've come to realize that people don't have the money available that they've been claiming via embassy letters.

 

That's simply not true on several levels.

 

1. You're implying that many people who have been using the income letters have been doing so falsely. And while I'm sure there is some element of that, neither you nor I have the slightest idea of to what extent.

 

Also, the British Embassy had been requiring real documentation from its citizens in each and every case in order to issue their income letters, and even that apparently wasn't sufficient for Immigration.

 

2. If things go the way they appear to be going, then Immigration absolutely will be asking for something "new".

 

They may begin demanding that all monthly income funds for extensions must be deposited into a Thai bank account, which is not a requirement anywhere now. Or, they may simply declare that they will no longer accept monthly income applications at all, and only seasoned bank deposits will be accepted, which likewise would be entirely new.

 

I've been doing the monthly income based retirement extensions for years, and I've never lied on my application, and always had backup documents to support my affidavit. But I've never imported all that income into a Thai bank account, because I didn't need it here, and I actually pay for things in my home country currency that simply aren't available to buy here. So in either of those two potential scenarios, Immigration absolutely would be imposing a NEW regime on me and others.

 

 

Edited November 8, 2018 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[soalbundy]

7 hours ago, pookiki said:

Ubon Joe, having been a follower of TVF for many years, I have the utmost respect for you and the advice you provide to the expat community in Thailand. It was not my intent to 'overlook' anyone impacted by the cessation of the issuance of affidavits.  Since we are not privy to what the embassies involved in this issue may or may not be doing, we can only speculate.  Why can't they do outreach meetings on this issue and ask the expat community for input on how to resolve what appears to me to be a deadlock in negotiations?  I have my own ideas about how to resolve this matter but without sufficient interest by my own embassy, it is very difficult.

I admire your initiative. I don't live in BKK so forgive my ignorance, what is the FCCT ?

[ParadiseLost]

24 minutes ago, soon2bexpat said:

I applaud you, this is the most common sense post on this topic.

 

 

If stating the obvious makes for a post...

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

29 minutes ago, cyberfarang said:

There is nothing to reach out to immigration for.

 

Immigration accept the monthly income option with proof of source of income and an embassy confirmation letter, they have not changed their policy on this. So far 3 embassies have confirmed they will no longer issue the letters. I very much doubt Thai immigration will amend their rules and policies to accommodate the changes made by foreign embassies.  You`re caught between a rock and a hard place.

. 

 

Obviously there is, and Joe has already indicated in his response to my inquiry that ThaiVisa is trying to arrange some contact with Immigration.

 

As for your second pgh, you have absolutely no idea what Immigration will or won't accept in the year ahead, because Immigration thus far has not said anything publicly about what will happen with citizens of countries that no longer are issuing income affidavits.  Will some alternate means of monthly income proof be allowed, and if so what, or only the bank deposits method will survive for expats from those countries?

 

Those are among the obvious questions that need to be asked of Immigration.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

6 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

I admire your initiative. I don't live in BKK so forgive my ignorance, what is the FCCT ?

 Foreign Correspondents Club of Thailand

[pookiki]

6 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

I admire your initiative. I don't live in BKK so forgive my ignorance, what is the FCCT ?

Foreign Correspondents Club of Thailand.

[robertson468]

I strongly recommend that Retireees worried about proving income in Thailand to support their Retirement Visa Application read carefully the Notarial and and Documentary Services Guide for Thailand contained on the British Embassy Website.  Below is an extract for convenience:

 

From 1 January 2019, the British Embassy Bangkok will no longer be providing British Nationals with letters confirming their income. This letter has previously served as a supporting document for obtaining a Thai retirement or marriage visa. The British Embassy Bangkok is stopping the certification of income letters because it is unable to fulfil the Thai authorities’ requirements to verify the income of British Nationals.

British Nationals should now demonstrate that they have an amount of at least 800,000 THB in an account in Thailand for no less than three months prior to the visa application, or a monthly income of at least 65,000 THB transferred into an account in Thailand. For marriage visas British Nationals should demonstrate that they have an amount of at least 400,000 THB in an account in Thailand for no less than three months prior to the visa application, or a monthly income of at least 40,000 THB. A bank statement should be used as the supporting document for obtaining a Thai retirement or marriage visa.

All British Nationals concerned should note that the last date for applications is 12 December 2018. Further information.

 

I would recommend that applicants go to their local Immigration Office and discuss this with them.  If they say that the Bank Statement is insufficient I suggest that you bombard the Consul with your concerns for them to take action, which it is their duty to do.

 

Good Luck.

[ParadiseLost]

34 minutes ago, Suradit69 said:

For what other reason would any government want foreigners to take up residence in their country? If you're not contributing to the economy why else would you be wanted? Did you think they found you charming and lovable?

 

The problem isn't that they are asking for anything new. The problem is that they've come to realize that people don't have the money available that they've been claiming via embassy letters.  If you've been saying you have at least Baht 65,000 or Baht 40,000 a month available and you don't, then you fail to meet the requirements that have existed for a very long time. Nothing has changed aside from realization that people are claiming something to be true which is not true, or at least which has not be reliably verified.

First, read a post before jumping on the soapbox - everything you say has already been said, over and over.

 

Do you not think it is ridiculous the embassies just accepted the Thai government accusing their citizens of lying? Why would they not tell the Thai government letters were affidavits and their citizens are free to swear to anything, it is their identity that is being verified, not the contents.

 

If there are foreigners sleeping on the street then perhaps there is a problem, but so far as I can see the vast majority can live here without relying on state help (there is none anyway).

[Suradit69]

12 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

You're implying that many people who have been using the income letters have been doing so falsely. And while I'm sure there is some element of that, neither you nor I have the slightest idea of to what extent.

I also said:

 

41 minutes ago, Suradit69 said:

Nothing has changed aside from realization that people are claiming something to be true which is not true, or at least which has not been reliably verified.

 

I have the required income and I have documentary proof, but the affidavit from the embassy was not a reliable verification of that.  

 

I agree we have no idea how many people claimed things on the affidavit which were untrue, but we know that everyone who got the affidavit from the US Embassy did so without supplying verifiable proof.

[Thingamabob]

Why not just go the 800k route ? Much easier in all respects.

[connda]

At the moment none of this affects me.  However, as I've said before, 'The winds of fate are fickle.'  The stock market crashes in 1987, 2001, 2008, and the Thai financial crash in 1997 simply support that fact. 

 

So, based on the rather Machiavellian Immigration policies that are some of the harshest, nationalistic, and discriminatory in the world - every Expat living here should have a Plan B and perhaps even a Plan C.  Even being married to a Thai for well over a decade, I can envision being kicked out of the country due to circumstances totally beyond my control.  

 

So, do you all have a Plan B?  If not, you should consider making one in the event that Thailand no longer welcomes you.  That's just being realistic and pragmatic in a country who does not welcome you but simply tolerates you living here as long as you meet a certain set of strictly enforced guidelines and submit to being monitored like a prison felon on parole.

Edited November 8, 2018 by connda

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

2 minutes ago, Suradit69 said:

I also said:

 

 

I have the required income and I have documentary proof, but the affidavit from the embassy was not a reliable verification of that.  

 

I agree we have no idea how many people claimed things on the affidavit which were untrue, but we know that everyone who got the affidavit from the US Embassy did so without supplying verifiable proof.

 

So then why should the Brits get chucked into the bucket?

 

I don't know how much more any embassy could reasonably do than the Brits were already doing, and apparently that wasn't enough to satisfy Immigration these days.

 

[Suradit69]

6 minutes ago, ParadiseLost said:

First, read a post before jumping on the soapbox

I can't jump on the soapbox while you're occupying it while saying nothing new about Thailand wanting people with money.

[masuk]

7 hours ago, Peterw42 said:

What is FCCT ?

I agree that some group representation to the correct authority could be productive but in this case the correct authority would be Thai immigration, not Embassies or MFA.

So, who makes the rules?  Who is "Thai Immigration". Some boffin in the Immigration Dept, or are there consultations with government officials, who in normal circumstances would be your elected representatives? 

[onera1961]

2 hours ago, Suradit69 said:

It's not so much your intent or peaceful purpose, but the optics. You could easily make the situation worse for everyone.

Agreed. Thailand may say no more retirement visa. Buy an elite visa or show 3 million in a Thai bank to get an O-X visa. What would we do in the case? 

[ParadiseLost]

1 minute ago, Suradit69 said:

I can't jump on the soapbox while you're occupying it while saying nothing new about Thailand wanting people with money.

Mate, all countries want that...

 

What puzzles me is that you somehow think I was moaning about that? I was merely stating a fact.

 

Pick another point out of context to further your own ambitions...

[Suradit69]

16 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

So then why should the Brits get chucked into the bucket?

 

I don't know how much more any embassy could reasonably do than the Brits were already doing, and apparently that wasn't enough to satisfy Immigration these days.

 

Well according to the British embassy they weren't doing more than providing "a supporting document" and were not able "to verify the income of British Nationals." Brits may have implied they were doing more, but the embassy seems to admit otherwise.

 

Quote

This letter has previously served as a supporting document for obtaining a Thai retirement or marriage visa. The British Embassy Bangkok is stopping the certification of income letters because it is unable to fulfil the Thai authorities’ requirements to verify the income of British Nationals.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/british-embassy-bangkok-to-stop-certification-of-income-letters

Edited November 8, 2018 by Suradit69

[lkv]

8 minutes ago, onera1961 said:

Agreed. Thailand may say no more retirement visa. Buy an elite visa or show 3 million in a Thai bank to get an O-X visa. What would we do in the case? 

O-A for people that enjoy better interest overseas, you can stretch it for 2 years, and the cost of flying back to home country every two years would be offset by the higher interest on the money in the home country.

[Griffo63]

I'm fairly sure the big embassies would want to continue if they could as these affidavits must be a big "earner" for them.

 

Say they do 5 a day, 25 a week at 1800 baht each time that equates to almost 200,000 baht a month. More than enough to pay a couple of clerks and a supervisor to complete a fairly routine task. The demands of Thai immigration must be too onerous to continue.

[chilly07]

I have asked the UK Embassy many times what documentation Thai Immigration want to replace Income Letters pointing out that in the past I have provided Tax Bank Account and FX data for them to verify before issuing said letter and how do they expect Immigration to be in a better position to check than they are but they keep referring me back to Immigration. The beaurocrats are playing their cards close to their chests which with my past experience indicates they don't know what they are doing other than now they have stirred up a storm they are hoping it will all go away.

However Jo seems to know that negotiations continue???

[Longcut]

3 hours ago, Suradit69 said:

With a word of caution that it could easily be interpreted as recruiting foreigners to form a protest group in conflict with the Thai government.

 

It's not so much your intent or peaceful purpose, but the optics. You could easily make the situation worse for everyone.

 

Although it seems the problem arose ages ago, it has been a fairly brief time period. The fact that the Thai government is taking its time to  react and set guidelines for the future doesn't mean nothing is being done. They've even allowed, in most cases, flexibility regarding when letters will still be accepted ... which suggests they are buying time to reach a solution.

 

Despite their apparent indifference, the embassies aren't totally clueless. If they didn't know it before, by now they know the impact this may have on their citizens in Thailand. 

 

I would rather allow some time for clarification and resolution. Send emails or phone your embassy if it makes you feel better, but be careful about what actions you take with regard to any Thai government entity and be especially careful about any claims you make regarding who you think you represent.

 

 

Write a letter to your representative back home. I think you will get more mileage.

[Issanman]

Here is a letter I picked up from the US Embassy Outreach in Udon Thani yesterday:

The letter helps to explain their side of the story.

[xylophone]

3 minutes ago, Issanman said:

Here is a letter I picked up from the US Embassy Outreach in Udon Thani yesterday:

The letter helps to explain their side of the story.

Thanks for the post and it really confirms what the majority of us long-stayers here had believed to be the case, as was pointed out early in the piece on the long thread pertaining to UK/OZ etc Embassies stopping the letters.

 

Good to get it in writing though, and I suspect my Embassy will do likewise given time!