FYI - U.S. Consulate Chiang Mai town hall meeting November 20th Chiang Mai University

[ThaiBob]

This email was received by Democrats Abroad Thailand members :

=========================

Dear Americans Abroad in Thailand,

Happy belated Thanksgiving, I hope you all had a chance to enjoy the holiday with family and friends.

As a service to our members and their American friends, DA Thailand is providing a report compiled by our DAT Vice-Chair Gary Suwannarat, who recently attended a town hall organized on November 20, 2018, by the US Consulate in Chiang Mai.

Please note that this is provided to alert members to upcoming changes but does not constitute legal advice; questions about your particular situation and circumstances should be addressed to Thai Immigration officers or to immigration lawyers.

This affects those living in Thailand on retirement visas. US Consular Offices (as well as those of the UK and Australia) will no longer notarize income certifications after December 31, 2018.

Gary Suwannarat’s report is as follows:

Chiang Mai US Consul General Jennifer Harhigh and overall Thailand Consul General Timothy Scherer spoke to some 200 Americans concerned about this upcoming change in income certification procedures for Americans applying for retirement visas, or renewal of an expiring retirement visa. This impacts many of the estimated 70,000-75,000 Americans on long-term visas in Thailand, some 20,000 of whom are served by the Chiang Mai Consulate, covering the CM Consular District from Chiang Rai in the north to Pichit, Pitasanuloke and Tak in the south.

Scherer indicated that there is no change in Thai law. However, as part of a global review of US consular operations, it was found that US consular offices in Thailand issue an unusually high number of income affidavits. This was raised in consular dialogue with Thai authorities, who then realized that the notarized affidavit affirms only that the named citizen appeared before a US Consular officer, but does not constitute proof of income, as required by Thai law as detailed in Police Order 777/2551, which governs visa approvals. (See partial translated text below.) Similar changes are reported regarding the UK and Australia, and in the offing for citizens of other countries who have significant populations of retired persons living in Thailand.

The US Embassy and the Immigration Division held discussions regarding how to ease the transition to new regulations, resulting in the Thai Immigration Division extending the validity of notarized income certification for 6 months from date of notarization. Notarization obtained by December 31, 2018 will be accepted until end-June, 2019. (Note: the Consular calendar in Chiang Mai is filling up fast.)

Follow-up comments indicated that the Chiang Mai Immigration Office earlier this year instituted a requirement of proof of income, supporting the Consular-notarized income affidavit. (Note: My contact with Chiang Mai Immigration officials indicates that they want both the Consulate notarization and back-up documentation.) Scherer acknowledged that Immigration Offices around Thailand exercise discretion in applying regulations, so there may be some inconsistencies.

One commenter said he had asked his US bank to provide a statement which summed his variable income for the year, reported as average monthly income, which was accepted for retirement visa purposes. Scherer stressed the importance of obtaining bank documents that, like this case, indicate as clearly as possible that income meets the Thai criteria.
Scherer further indicated that Embassy officials are working with Thai Immigration officials to familiarize them with financial reporting formats of the Social Security Administration, Veterans Affairs and major firms managing IRAs. The value of using standard income and retirement income reports (1099 and 1099-R) was mentioned.

Audience members applauded the suggestion that the Embassy work with the government to get acceptance of forms with personal identifying information not required for visa purposes redacted or blacked out as protection against identity theft.

The "combination" method (including both monthly income and Thai bank deposits) will still be accepted for justification of individual retirement visa extensions. For spousal visa extensions, inquire of Thai Immigration authorities or an Immigration lawyer.

Questions and discussion indicated that ANY source of income could be considered, not just pension income. In meetings with Thai Immigration, the U.S. officials have stressed that Americans have many sources of income (many not at regular intervals) to support themselves in retirement -- rental income, investments, withdrawals from trusts, and much more in additional to traditional government pensions like SS and VA. There was one report of someone in Chiang Mai receiving income at irregular intervals, so he printed out all deposits to his U.S. bank account over the course of a year and showed Thai immigration how it was more than 800,000 baht a year and this was accepted.

There was concern from several expat-expat married couples who each have been maintaining individual retirement visas, where one receives less than 65,000 baht and the other more than 65,000 baht, but the total exceeded 130,000 baht. Would it be possible for the wife to obtain a dependent or "family" visa? U.S. officials were unable to answer this question about how Thai immigration will handle dependent visas going forward. Again, speak to a Thai Immigration official or immigration lawyer.

Thai Police Order 777/255: Unofficial translation (available online):

Retirement visa application requires proof of income of not less than 65,000/month OR
Thai bank account deposit of baht 800,000 at least 2 months prior to INITIALLY applying for a retirement visa; at least 3 months prior to application for retirement visa renewal OR
Annual income plus bank account deposit totaling not less than baht 800,000 as of the filing date for retirement visa.

Thank you to Gary for volunteering to go to the meeting and file this report to share with the DAT membership. So, to summarize, the only real advice that DAT can provide to you is the following:

Get the income affirmation notarized by the Embassy before year end if your visa expires before June 30, 3019. (Note that appointment slots at the consulate are filling up fast.)
Ensure others you know are also made aware of these changes.
For advice about specific cases, either talk to a Thai Immigration officer or an immigration lawyer

I hope that this is helpful to our members who have retired in Thailand on a retirement visa and will be affected by this situation.

With best wishes,

Phil Robertson
Chairperson, Democrats Abroad Thailand (DAT)
Email: [email protected]

Democrats Abroad Thailand
http://www.democratsabroad.org/

Edited November 26, 2018 by ThaiBob

[bubba]

28 minutes ago, ThaiBob said:

This email was received by Democrats Abroad Thailand members :

=========================

Dear Americans Abroad in Thailand,

Happy belated Thanksgiving, I hope you all had a chance to enjoy the holiday with family and friends.

As a service to our members and their American friends, DA Thailand is providing a report compiled by our DAT Vice-Chair Gary Suwannarat, who recently attended a town hall organized on November 20, 2018, by the US Consulate in Chiang Mai.

Please note that this is provided to alert members to upcoming changes but does not constitute legal advice; questions about your particular situation and circumstances should be addressed to Thai Immigration officers or to immigration lawyers.

This affects those living in Thailand on retirement visas. US Consular Offices (as well as those of the UK and Australia) will no longer notarize income certifications after December 31, 2018.

Gary Suwannarat’s report is as follows:

Chiang Mai US Consul General Jennifer Harhigh and overall Thailand Consul General Timothy Scherer spoke to some 200 Americans concerned about this upcoming change in income certification procedures for Americans applying for retirement visas, or renewal of an expiring retirement visa. This impacts many of the estimated 70,000-75,000 Americans on long-term visas in Thailand, some 20,000 of whom are served by the Chiang Mai Consulate, covering the CM Consular District from Chiang Rai in the north to Pichit, Pitasanuloke and Tak in the south.

Scherer indicated that there is no change in Thai law. However, as part of a global review of US consular operations, it was found that US consular offices in Thailand issue an unusually high number of income affidavits. This was raised in consular dialogue with Thai authorities, who then realized that the notarized affidavit affirms only that the named citizen appeared before a US Consular officer, but does not constitute proof of income, as required by Thai law as detailed in Police Order 777/2551, which governs visa approvals. (See partial translated text below.) Similar changes are reported regarding the UK and Australia, and in the offing for citizens of other countries who have significant populations of retired persons living in Thailand.

The US Embassy and the Immigration Division held discussions regarding how to ease the transition to new regulations, resulting in the Thai Immigration Division extending the validity of notarized income certification for 6 months from date of notarization. Notarization obtained by December 31, 2018 will be accepted until end-June, 2019. (Note: the Consular calendar in Chiang Mai is filling up fast.)

Follow-up comments indicated that the Chiang Mai Immigration Office earlier this year instituted a requirement of proof of income, supporting the Consular-notarized income affidavit. (Note: My contact with Chiang Mai Immigration officials indicates that they want both the Consulate notarization and back-up documentation.) Scherer acknowledged that Immigration Offices around Thailand exercise discretion in applying regulations, so there may be some inconsistencies.

One commenter said he had asked his US bank to provide a statement which summed his variable income for the year, reported as average monthly income, which was accepted for retirement visa purposes. Scherer stressed the importance of obtaining bank documents that, like this case, indicate as clearly as possible that income meets the Thai criteria.
Scherer further indicated that Embassy officials are working with Thai Immigration officials to familiarize them with financial reporting formats of the Social Security Administration, Veterans Affairs and major firms managing IRAs. The value of using standard income and retirement income reports (1099 and 1099-R) was mentioned.

Audience members applauded the suggestion that the Embassy work with the government to get acceptance of forms with personal identifying information not required for visa purposes redacted or blacked out as protection against identity theft.

The "combination" method (including both monthly income and Thai bank deposits) will still be accepted for justification of individual retirement visa extensions. For spousal visa extensions, inquire of Thai Immigration authorities or an Immigration lawyer.

Questions and discussion indicated that ANY source of income could be considered, not just pension income. In meetings with Thai Immigration, the U.S. officials have stressed that Americans have many sources of income (many not at regular intervals) to support themselves in retirement -- rental income, investments, withdrawals from trusts, and much more in additional to traditional government pensions like SS and VA. There was one report of someone in Chiang Mai receiving income at irregular intervals, so he printed out all deposits to his U.S. bank account over the course of a year and showed Thai immigration how it was more than 800,000 baht a year and this was accepted.

There was concern from several expat-expat married couples who each have been maintaining individual retirement visas, where one receives less than 65,000 baht and the other more than 65,000 baht, but the total exceeded 130,000 baht. Would it be possible for the wife to obtain a dependent or "family" visa? U.S. officials were unable to answer this question about how Thai immigration will handle dependent visas going forward. Again, speak to a Thai Immigration official or immigration lawyer.

Thai Police Order 777/255: Unofficial translation (available online):

Retirement visa application requires proof of income of not less than 65,000/month OR
Thai bank account deposit of baht 800,000 at least 2 months prior to INITIALLY applying for a retirement visa; at least 3 months prior to application for retirement visa renewal OR
Annual income plus bank account deposit totaling not less than baht 800,000 as of the filing date for retirement visa.

Thank you to Gary for volunteering to go to the meeting and file this report to share with the DAT membership. So, to summarize, the only real advice that DAT can provide to you is the following:

Get the income affirmation notarized by the Embassy before year end if your visa expires before June 30, 3019. (Note that appointment slots at the consulate are filling up fast.)
Ensure others you know are also made aware of these changes.
For advice about specific cases, either talk to a Thai Immigration officer or an immigration lawyer

I hope that this is helpful to our members who have retired in Thailand on a retirement visa and will be affected by this situation.

With best wishes,

Phil Robertson
Chairperson, Democrats Abroad Thailand (DAT)
Email: [email protected]

Democrats Abroad Thailand
http://www.democratsabroad.org/

Many thanks for posting that, Bob.  This seems to answer one nagging question that I had: Will TI accept an averaging method for those of us who have irregular income rather than monthly pension payments? To quote those parts:

 

One commenter said he had asked his US bank to provide a statement which summed his variable income for the year, reported as average monthly income, which was accepted for retirement visa purposes. Scherer stressed the importance of obtaining bank documents that, like this case, indicate as clearly as possible that income meets the Thai criteria.

 

Questions and discussion indicated that ANY source of income could be considered, not just pension income. In meetings with Thai Immigration, the U.S. officials have stressed that Americans have many sources of income (many not at regular intervals) to support themselves in retirement -- rental income, investments, withdrawals from trusts, and much more in additional to traditional government pensions like SS and VA. There was one report of someone in Chiang Mai receiving income at irregular intervals, so he printed out all deposits to his U.S. bank account over the course of a year and showed Thai immigration how it was more than 800,000 baht a year and this was accepted.

 

[NancyL]

3 hours ago, albertik said:

I am curious; did anybody or the consulate make  mention of the Social Security Admin./ Bangkok Bank New York branch/ debacle re: ACH verses IAT benefits transmission to Thailand?

Someone asked Bangkok Bank discontinuing ACH transfers in April 2019 and none of the Consular or Embassy officials knew anything about it.

 

However, they did have the good news that starting at about that time, there will be a change where VA and SS payments can be deposited into ANY Thai bank, not just Bangkok Bank.  We were told to stay tuned more information to follow.

[Sheryl]

I notice that nowhere is the term "verify" used, only "proof of income". A non-issue vis-a-vis the US Embassy since they were not doing anything other than a sworn statement ,but this notion of being expected to "verify" income documents at source has been sited as reason for Brit Embassy (which DID require and review income documents before issuing a letter) ceasing to issue income letters.

[JLCrab]

30 minutes ago, bubba said:

There was one report of someone in Chiang Mai receiving income at irregular intervals, so he printed out all deposits to his U.S. bank account over the course of a year and showed Thai immigration how it was more than 800,000 baht a year and this was accepted.

 

This was accepted as back-up to or instead of the US Consulate (Chiang Mai) income affidavit?

Edited November 26, 2018 by JLCrab

[ubonjoe]

3 hours ago, albertik said:

I am curious; did anybody or the consulate make  mention of the Social Security Admin./ Bangkok Bank New York branch/ debacle re: ACH verses IAT benefits transmission to Thailand?

I think that has been partly resolved. The SSA is already sending most of the transfers in IAT format according to info given by out by Bangkok bank. 

You just need to verify that yours is being done in the IAT format.

This info from one of the various topics running about it.

[JackThompson]

2 hours ago, dave s said:

What is the deal on "proof that funds came from abroad"? With an embassy letter, do they usually not check any further, unless make the IO suspicious? With the deposit method, or the combined letter and deposit method, when do they check that the deposited funds are foreign? Is it just when you do your marriage or retirement application for the first time? Or do they want you to prove it on every renewal?

Setting aside the guessing-game of what will be required with the income-letter gone - the only time "proof from abroad" was needed, was for a Non-O Stamp received in-country, when entering the country on a Tourist entry, as a prerequisite for a Non-O based extension-of-stay.  Some enter the country with a Non-O Visa, so do not need to apply locally for this stamp.

 

After the income-letter goes away, it is possible that one could still qualify by the income or combination method, by showing that one's minimum necessary income is being transferred from abroad.  In this case, showing the source of the qualifying income, and all of it coming to Thailand would be new hurdles.

[JackThompson]

Thanks for the meeting-notes - just a comment on...

 

46 minutes ago, ThaiBob said:

The US Embassy and the Immigration Division held discussions regarding how to ease the transition to new regulations, resulting in the Thai Immigration Division extending the validity of notarized income certification for 6 months from date of notarization.

This was not a change.  An existing police order covered this. 

Evidently, there was no success in "easing the transition" discussions (or not that has been announced), so they just stated an existing policy.

 

 

[NancyL]

30 minutes ago, JLCrab said:

This was accepted as back-up to or instead of the US Consulate (Chiang Mai) income affidavit?

This was a back-up to the U.S. Consulate income affidavit.

[JLCrab]

52 minutes ago, bubba said:

Questions and discussion indicated that ANY source of income could be considered, not just pension income. In meetings with Thai Immigration, the U.S. officials have stressed that Americans have many sources of income (many not at regular intervals) to support themselves in retirement -- rental income, investments, withdrawals from trusts, and much more in additional to traditional government pensions like SS and VA

I think that those who are waiting for the day when they can show their rental income statement and a TM7 form as sufficient to get a one year extension off stay will have a very long wait.

[racyrick]

Good info Bubba, but it will be real interesting how this will paly out in the real world at each individual Immigration Office and Officer.

[racyrick]

Also, what happens to those whose extensions expire July-November who are too late to use and income affidavit?

[Lacessit]

On 11/25/2018 at 9:08 AM, sfokevin said:

A 14 year old with a bootleg copy of Phoshop could duplicate these in 20 minutes...

Possibly so. However, I doubt retirees could. And where would the 14 yo obtain the ATO and Centrelink file numbers unique to the person?

Edited November 26, 2018 by Lacessit

[JackThompson]

22 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

On 11/25/2018 at 9:08 AM, sfokevin said:

A 14 year old with a bootleg copy of Phoshop could duplicate these in 20 minutes...

Possibly so. However, I doubt retirees could. And where would the 14 yo obtain the ATO and Centrelink file numbers unique to the person?

I assume the guy paying the 14 yo to fake their docs would provide them.  He'd probably just give the kid his own docs to be scanned, and the numbers would be altered to reach the "needed" values.  Of course, only felons would attempt this - or make fake stat-docs, as they exist now. 

 

Since the embassies won't be doing this, where that tech will come in, is if T.I. requires "backup docs" in addition to Thai-bank  proof monthly-transfers.  I would guess "templates" (including special paper, if needed) for every popular country's docs would become available.  Could be offered at a fraction of agent costs, so is bound to happen.

[Lacessit]

2 hours ago, JackThompson said:

I assume the guy paying the 14 yo to fake their docs would provide them.  He'd probably just give the kid his own docs to be scanned, and the numbers would be altered to reach the "needed" values.  Of course, only felons would attempt this - or make fake stat-docs, as they exist now. 

 

Since the embassies won't be doing this, where that tech will come in, is if T.I. requires "backup docs" in addition to Thai-bank  proof monthly-transfers.  I would guess "templates" (including special paper, if needed) for every popular country's docs would become available.  Could be offered at a fraction of agent costs, so is bound to happen.

I could not think of anything more stupid than giving my unique ATO and Centrelink numbers to just anyone. It would open up Pandora's box  with respect to identity theft. However, I suppose desperate people do desperate things.

[gk10002000]

12 hours ago, bubba said:

Many thanks for posting that, Bob.  This seems to answer one nagging question that I had: Will TI accept an averaging method for those of us who have irregular income rather than monthly pension payments? To quote those parts:

 

One commenter said he had asked his US bank to provide a statement which summed his variable income for the year, reported as average monthly income, which was accepted for retirement visa purposes. Scherer stressed the importance of obtaining bank documents that, like this case, indicate as clearly as possible that income meets the Thai criteria.

 

Questions and discussion indicated that ANY source of income could be considered, not just pension income. In meetings with Thai Immigration, the U.S. officials have stressed that Americans have many sources of income (many not at regular intervals) to support themselves in retirement -- rental income, investments, withdrawals from trusts, and much more in additional to traditional government pensions like SS and VA. There was one report of someone in Chiang Mai receiving income at irregular intervals, so he printed out all deposits to his U.S. bank account over the course of a year and showed Thai immigration how it was more than 800,000 baht a year and this was accepted.

 

I can  provide tons of documentation from my bank and brokerage about my stock and fund dividends, my bond interest etc.  But will the Thais really sit down and understand or accept such things?  I have my doubts.  Why doesn't the embassy just get off their butts, being the most familiar with the various forms of income from their home countries and work out an oversight agreement with the Thai officials and what standard of proof the Thais would accept?  Most Americans don't understand Roth or Traditional IRA accounts, never mind Brokerage accounts, Qualified dividends, 1099s (so many people just hand over their taxes to an accountant). 

[gk10002000]

So now may be expected to deliver copies of 1009s, which contain brokerage account numbers, and other personal information.  And of course the social security number if some sort of proof from the SSA is needed.  Birth date is already known since it is in Passport.   All very important private information that can easily be misused.  There is not security or guarding of such paperwork in Thailand's official hands that is worth anything.  Now I would gladly show I have more than 800k baht in my US accounts, similar to how one would get their first O visa from their home country.  But the extension in Thailand would then require funds in Thailand?  Or can the same 800k Baht that I started with in the USA still be used?

[JackThompson]

3 hours ago, gk10002000 said:

Why doesn't the embassy just get off their butts, being the most familiar with the various forms of income from their home countries and work out an oversight agreement with the Thai officials and what standard of proof the Thais would accept? 

I really can not see embassy personnel doing what you describe - examining each of these forms of income for each person.  And I agree it is unrealistic for Thai Imm to do it for all the forms of income from various countries.  What would be needed, is for applicants to pay for an independent audit, done by someone approved by Thai Imm.  That would not be cheap, and they would likely have to be given access to much personal info, which could be dangerous.

 

Verifying only certain types (govt-pensions) would be possible in terms of reduced complexity, but not under USA law, which forbids consulate-personnel from verifying anything but who you are and that you "swore X was true."  Not to mention, a verification for only some income-types opens the "what about me" can of worms.

 

I think the Thai Imm wanted to kill the letters, and the way to do that was to insist on "verification" of each component of the applicant's income and its applicability for future income - which is impossible, other than for govt-backed forms.  Stocks can crash, companies stop paying dividends, and "savings" (IRAs, etc) is not the same as income. 

 

But please don't think I am defending this decision.  There is no "welfare" here, so the letters were more than enough, and the alternative "money in the bank" amount is far too high.  A cheap "stabilize and repatriate" form of health-ins (no long-term care-costs) would remove all potential liabilities of all foreigners in Thailand (including short-termers), removing the need for this runaround.  If that's not enough, add a locked-in 100K Baht for longer-term folks, which one can retrieve at the airport, after stamping-out of the country.

 

But, a pragmatic solution to maximize foreign-spending for the benefit of the country appears not to be the goal.  An explanation that seems to better fit the actions taken is reducing expat-numbers overall, and forcing more of the remaining to pay off officials via agents to stay - not only in the case of the letters, but in other policy-shifts, as well.

[JackThompson]

4 hours ago, gk10002000 said:

Now I would gladly show I have more than 800k baht in my US accounts, similar to how one would get their first O visa from their home country.  But the extension in Thailand would then require funds in Thailand?  Or can the same 800k Baht that I started with in the USA still be used?

Yes, the money must be in a Thai bank to be used for an extension at an immigration office in Thailand.

 

To use the money in the USA, you would have to apply for a Non-OA at a Thai consulate in the USA.  You can stretch each one of those for almost 2-years of use.  When applying in the USA, you could also show income or a combination of income and savings - which may be difficult or impossible for many to do here in the future.  I expect these Visas will become more popular, given the recent change.

[bkk6060]

2 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

Yes, the money must be in a Thai bank to be used for an extension at an immigration office in Thailand.

 

To use the money in the USA, you would have to apply for a Non-OA at a Thai consulate in the USA.  You can stretch each one of those for almost 2-years of use.  When applying in the USA, you could also show income or a combination of income and savings - which may be difficult or impossible for many to do here in the future.  I expect these Visas will become more popular, given the recent change.

Criminal history, medical cert., and no extension in Thailand.

More people will not want to do these as you may think.

[JackThompson]

22 minutes ago, bkk6060 said:

Criminal history, medical cert., and no extension in Thailand.

More people will not want to do these as you may think.

Not to mention a trip-home - definitely more of a PITA - especially for those who don't already go back there semi-regularly. 

It all depends on what/if/any income-method remains, when the dust settles.

[JLCrab]

26 minutes ago, bkk6060 said:

Criminal history, medical cert., and no extension in Thailand.

More people will not want to do these as you may think.

The criminal history is particularly troublesome if you have one.

[bkk6060]

42 minutes ago, JLCrab said:

The criminal history is particularly troublesome if you have one.

????

I don't but wonder what is disqualification?

A DUI?

Domestic violence?

Petty theft?

 

I think they may be looking for drug type offenses but not sure.

[ubonjoe]

16 minutes ago, bkk6060 said:

I don't but wonder what is disqualification?

Perhaps similar to what section 12 the immigration act has shown for reasons for denial of entry to the country.

 

[JLCrab]

I received as dry run the Florida Department of Law Enforcement (FDLE) online criminal background check and it says, if your name, birthdate, and last 4 numbers of social Security ID do not appear on this form, then you have no criminal history. The hard copy is required for O-A application.

Edited November 27, 2018 by JLCrab

[bkk6060]

40 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

Perhaps similar to what section 12 the immigration act has shown for reasons for denial of entry to the country.

 

Thanks.

It seems to be discretionary and not real specific though.

I have some military buddies that have drunk in public arrests(a minor offense) I guess they may not qualify under #2.

Anyway, glad I do not have to worry about.

[onera1961]

52 minutes ago, JLCrab said:

I received as dry run the Florida Department of Law Enforcement (FDLE) online criminal background check and it says, if your name, birthdate, and last 4 numbers of social Security ID do not appear on this form, then you have no criminal history. The hard copy is required for O-A applicatio

Should not you be able to go to a State Police department and get a hard copy? For my O-A, I used a county background check for free and that takes 5 minutes. Of course, the clerk suggested that if I need a state-wide clearance, I have to go the State police department or FBI for a nationwide clearance. I told her thanks, I will take my chance and gamble $200 with the county clearance only. ????

Edited November 27, 2018 by onera1961

[onera1961]

6 hours ago, gk10002000 said:

I can  provide tons of documentation from my bank and brokerage about my stock and fund dividends, my bond interest etc. 

I think if you over do it, they may not accept. A simple statement as someone suggested detailing total and average per month has more chance of acceptance, I guess.

[JLCrab]

2 hours ago, onera1961 said:

Should not you be able to go to a State Police department and get a hard copy?

As I said it was a dry run. I have a rather common last name and I just wanted to see that the record was clean. For the same $24 you can get either an instant online version or a certified hard copy from FDLE which I will request no more than 3 months before applying for OA if I actually do apply for OA.

[gk10002000]

15 hours ago, JackThompson said:

I really can not see embassy personnel doing what you describe - examining each of these forms of income for each person.  And I agree it is unrealistic for Thai Imm to do it for all the forms of income from various countries.  What would be needed, is for applicants to pay for an independent audit, done by someone approved by Thai Imm.  That would not be cheap, and they would likely have to be given access to much personal info, which could be dangerous.

 

Verifying only certain types (govt-pensions) would be possible in terms of reduced complexity, but not under USA law, which forbids consulate-personnel from verifying anything but who you are and that you "swore X was true."  Not to mention, a verification for only some income-types opens the "what about me" can of worms.

 

I think the Thai Imm wanted to kill the letters, and the way to do that was to insist on "verification" of each component of the applicant's income and its applicability for future income - which is impossible, other than for govt-backed forms.  Stocks can crash, companies stop paying dividends, and "savings" (IRAs, etc) is not the same as income. 

 

But please don't think I am defending this decision.  There is no "welfare" here, so the letters were more than enough, and the alternative "money in the bank" amount is far too high.  A cheap "stabilize and repatriate" form of health-ins (no long-term care-costs) would remove all potential liabilities of all foreigners in Thailand (including short-termers), removing the need for this runaround.  If that's not enough, add a locked-in 100K Baht for longer-term folks, which one can retrieve at the airport, after stamping-out of the country.

 

But, a pragmatic solution to maximize foreign-spending for the benefit of the country appears not to be the goal.  An explanation that seems to better fit the actions taken is reducing expat-numbers overall, and forcing more of the remaining to pay off officials via agents to stay - not only in the case of the letters, but in other policy-shifts, as well.

but that is the point.  Just showing some transfers in over the last year, does not in any way guarantee income in the future.  And don't confuse savings with an IRA.  Granted most people just have savings, I don't.  I have hard equities in all my IRAs that return dividends and interest.  Are all my bonds going to default?  Of course not.  I would bank the reliability of my hundreds of bonds and blue chip stock dividends and diversified preferred stock dividend paying funds against most private pensions.  I am coasting into retirement with a 1 Million USD portfolio paying over $60,000 a year in dividends and interest, and I have not even started social security until next year.   But the proof and level of proof for income is a bit of a sticky wicket.  Time will tell what the Thais end up doing.  At the moment it seems like it is going to affect and hurt many thousands of expats, some probably were doing it illegally and abusing the system.   It would be interesting to know how many really were lying or grossly mistaken on their income affidavits.