Solve the plastic bag issue... charge 5 baht for a bag

[mogandave]

It annoys me when i just buy a single item like a pack of smokes and they put it in a plastic bag

Why not just take your smokes out and leave the bag there?

If you trade at the same shop regularly after a while they’ll hold the bag up and look at you quizzically.

[rickudon]

The problem is not plastic bags per se, but their disposal. If a plastic bag has value, it will be reused most of the time. Introduction of a bag charge in the UK reduced plastic bag usage by over 90%, so it works. Other plastic is also an issue, and true cannot ban all of it (yet). But you start somewhere and people LEARN. 

 

Makro to my knowledge have never given free bags in the 9 years i have lived here, and it doesn't hurt them. I do despair at the Thai takeaway food/drink in a bag culture, and hope it can be changed. After a bag charge for carrier bags, the next big thing is for the government to provide proper recycling/disposal of waste throughout the country - recycle all plastic or incinerate it (and use this to produce electricity).

 

I have to collect litter in my garden and fish ponds continuously due to what blows in from elsewhere, and recently fly-tipping is on the increase too in the surrounding fields.

 

I do not care if some poor Thai is slightly inconvenienced by controlling plastic, because this litter is doing far more damage in the long run than most realise. And extensive recycling/reuse of plastic offers business opportunities for poorer people.

[mogandave]

I do not care if some poor Thai is slightly inconvenienced...

Yeah, I don’t doubt that for a moment.

[Tweedle dee]

3 minutes ago, rickudon said:

The problem is not plastic bags per se, but their disposal. If a plastic bag has value, it will be reused most of the time. Introduction of a bag charge in the UK reduced plastic bag usage by over 90%, so it works. Other plastic is also an issue, and true cannot ban all of it (yet). But you start somewhere and people LEARN. 

 

Makro to my knowledge have never given free bags in the 9 years i have lived here, and it doesn't hurt them. I do despair at the Thai takeaway food/drink in a bag culture, and hope it can be changed. After a bag charge for carrier bags, the next big thing is for the government to provide proper recycling/disposal of waste throughout the country - recycle all plastic or incinerate it (and use this to produce electricity).

 

I have to collect litter in my garden and fish ponds continuously due to what blows in from elsewhere, and recently fly-tipping is on the increase too in the surrounding fields.

 

I do not care if some poor Thai is slightly inconvenienced by controlling plastic, because this litter is doing far more damage in the long run than most realise. And extensive recycling/reuse of plastic offers business opportunities for poorer people.

Should be a major subject at grass roots.. Schools here for starters...scouts /girl guides are mandatory here they can devise merrit badges for cleaning up there own environment...students would warm to the idea.

[1FinickyOne]

5 hours ago, mogandave said:

 

That’s why I think the cost of the bags should be progressive.

You make You pay
Per month Per bag
10k B1
20k B10
30k. B50
40k B100
50-100k B200
100-500k. B500
500k+ B1,000

I think it’s fair

 

So, now we need a proof of income statement to go grocery shopping...

[mogandave]

So, now we need a proof of income statement to go grocery shopping...

No, I think it safe to assume all non Thais are rich.

[Ahab]

9 hours ago, mogandave said:

 

That’s why I think the cost of the bags should be progressive.

You make You pay
Per month Per bag
10k B1
20k B10
30k. B50
40k B100
50-100k B200
100-500k. B500
500k+ B1,000

I think it’s fair

 

Sure, fair, and also totally unworkable, unrealistic, and unverifiable. Just like most "progressive" ideas.

[HHTel]

22 hours ago, Jenny Lincoln said:

I don't agree with charging 5b for a plastic bag, because it's unfair to people who go around by walk or public transport (which is something also environmental) and need to protect their items. Thailand is a rainy climate, and plastic bags are WATERPROOF, and in a normal cloth bag, many items that you buy can be damaged on the trip home. Also, cloth bags are difficult to clean, and Thai food is messy! Without a plastic bag (preferably, two layers of bags, a hot PP bag and an outer normal bag, or a bag put inside a lunchbox), it can spill all over your cloth bag, which you may then not have time to wash for several days, or you may be unable to get the stain out of it! On top of this, the plastic bags are EXTREMELY USEFUL. I reuse every single plastic bag I get, and I even buy them in lots from the small stores. I use them for wrapping items like my comb and brush, tea and coffee powder, packed lunch, and other items I often carry in my handbag and umbrella material food bag from Tops. Another issue here...I read about this in a research study...is that the Thai people who work at the customer service counters like to give out something for free, something other, beyond what the customer has bought, as a way to get Buddhist merit, and for social reasons. They get upset when you refuse a bag (you should see the look in their eyes!) So I don't think this plan is going to work here. They charged several cents for a plastic bag in Washington, D.C. in 2010 when I lived there, and it didn't seem to help anything. What I did notice was that plastic bags of all sizes were made of much poorer quality and cheaper plastic, compared to what they had been made of in the year 2000 when I was last in the US, and would often fall apart on the way home from the store, whereas in the old days they had been made of good plastic that could be used a long time. Makro stopped giving out its wonderful, useful bags for free...this was a big problem when I went to Mae Rim in July 2017, and had bought a bunch of items from there, and planned to go home by songtaew and not by car, and no one informed me about the bag issue until they had already rung up all my items. Fortunately, I was able to buy a Makro bag for 11b, and I used it for about two years after that as a laundry bag!  The whole plastic bag thing is just a way for large corporations who cause most of the damage to the world's environment today to transfer their blame for the problem to ordinary people and make the ordinary people do the suffering! And especially in Thailand, where cloth bags simply do not protect items from rain damage, as the rain can start very suddenly, or solve hygiene issues with food, as it's a humid climate with lots of bugs and flies. We do need to distinguish between the types of bags here...the HOT BAGS keep food fresh far longer than a normal lunchbox or tiffin container does, which is why they are used for packaging at Devi Mandir temple (and to keep it still longer, I put the bag inside a lunchbox and wrap another bag on top of that and criss-cross rubber-band it!) Many Thai people don't have a fridge, so that is another issue here. And the BIG SIZE bags are useful to put in your dustbin or for packing and carrying clothes, or for cat litter boxes (my mom and stepfather use ONLY WalMart bags for the cat litter box!) And the BIGGER SIZE THICKER PLASTIC BAGS can sometimes be used for as much as a year later and for all kinds of purposes that cloth or paper bags can't be used for. Anyway, if they do proceed with this ban, I would recommend that everyone buy, not a cloth bag, but a JUTE BAG (many made in Bangladesh, and they are available at Tops and several other stores) and an UMBRELLA material bag, which, unlike ordinary cloth bags, are WATERPROOF. 

You have said it yourself that there are many alternatives to plastic.  Hot drinks, hot food and pretty much everything else can be carried in non-plastic containers.  Shopping bags made from nylon are waterproof.  There is absolutely no need for the use of plastic. What did we do before plastic.  How are the African countries surviving without plastic, some for years!

 

Quote

the plastic bags are EXTREMELY USEFUL. I reuse every single plastic bag I get, and I even buy them in lots from the small stores.

Shame on you.

[mogandave]

Sure, fair, and also totally unworkable, unrealistic, and unverifiable. Just like most "progressive" ideas.

Why is it unworkable?

[Ahab]

10 hours ago, mogandave said:

 

Why is it unworkable?

 

How is a cashier in 7-11 going to verify your income?

[Cryingdick]

I know it has worked in other places. However wonder if there could be any unexpected repercussions if tasing the value of a plastic bag that much? At 5 Baht a bag that would be a huge huge margin when sold. I can see marketing schemes at 7-11 that give 25 free useless 7-11 points with every bag bought.

 

Business would be great if you could squeeze another 5 or 10Baht out of every customer. Put Hello Kitty on them so kids want them and they double as play toys for toddlers.

[canopy]

Countries that already banned plastic bags are making a laughing stock out of the rest of the world. How lost does that make Britain look who 50 years into the plastic generation rolls out a 25 year plan, (yes a quarter of a century) to get rid of single use plastics. Or how about the other countries like Thailand still hopelessly floundering with the idea of how to "reduce" plastic bag consumption. People scratching their heads how to get from 10 billion bags to 9 billion, BFD. The answer is just so easy and right there in front of everyone and yet no one sees it--ban plastic bags. Why on earth is any concerned person talking about anything other than such a simple, proven idea that completely solves the problem 100% before the year is out?

 

Edited November 19, 2018 by canopy

[mogandave]

How is a cashier in 7-11 going to verify your income?

With your income verification card

[Cryingdick]

37 minutes ago, canopy said:

Countries that already banned plastic bags are making a laughing stock out of the rest of the world. How lost does that make Britain look who 50 years into the plastic generation rolls out a 25 year plan, (yes a quarter of a century) to get rid of single use plastics. Or how about the other countries like Thailand still hopelessly floundering with the idea of how to "reduce" plastic bag consumption. People scratching their heads how to get from 10 billion bags to 9 billion, BFD. The answer is just so easy and right there in front of everyone and yet no one sees it--ban plastic bags. Why on earth is any concerned person talking about anything other than such a simple, proven idea that completely solves the problem 100% before the year is out?

 

 

The thing is if you have an environmentally conscientious populous you don't really need to ban them. In countries like the USA they aren't banned and present little to no problem. I am sure some municipalities in California and elsewhere may have bans. 

 

However in 99% of the country it is paper or plastic and business as normal. We use plastic bags all the time and our beaches and roadsides are for the most part spotless.

 

As other posters have pointed out plastic bags are actually very useful for household rubbish disposal.  

 

As far as the argument that if you put a value on something Thais will take care of it.... Have you seen how Thais take care of things of value? This is why we can't have nice things or plastic bags apparently. 

 

 

[Ahab]

36 minutes ago, mogandave said:

 

With your income verification card

 

And now we are back to unworkable.....a full circle.

[mogandave]

And now we are back to unworkable.....a full circle.

Just because you don’t want something work, or are unable to see how it could work, does not mean it won’t work.

[mogandave]

 
The thing is if you have an environmentally conscientious populous you don't really need to ban them. In countries like the USA they aren't banned and present little to no problem. I am sure some municipalities in California and elsewhere may have bans. 
 
However in 99% of the country it is paper or plastic and business as normal. We use plastic bags all the time and our beaches and roadsides are for the most part spotless.
 
As other posters have pointed out plastic bags are actually very useful for household rubbish disposal.  
 
As far as the argument that if you put a value on something Thais will take care of it.... Have you seen how Thais take care of things of value? This is why we can't have nice things or plastic bags apparently. 
 
 

One problem is that there are no trash cans anywhere.

[Cryingdick]

4 minutes ago, mogandave said:

 

One problem is that there are no trash cans anywhere.

 

 

Last I looked the American west isn't full of trash cans either. One problem is that Thais indiscriminately throw garbage of all types out of their car windows. In Tokyo after the sarin gas attacks most public garbage cans were removed. The reasoning was they didn't want places people could hide things. Yet Tokyo doesn't have the garbage problems that say Bangkok has.

 

I was in Laos at a market with a Lao friend one time. There was garbage everywhere like a typical market, rats etc. I threw a can on the ground near a big pile of garbage. My friend jokingly reprimanded me about it. I told him take a look around the entire place was like a big garbage dump. 

 

He happened to also be my driver on this particular trip. Later on he stopped on the road and threw all of the garbage and bags and beer cans directly into a stream. Evidently in his logic this was the natural choice.

 

 

[canopy]

42 minutes ago, Cryingdick said:

In countries like the USA they aren't banned and present little to no problem.

 

You are delusional. Plastic bags are a problem in the most developed countries and that's why they are getting rid of them. California banned plastic bags in many stores and adds a fee on each recycled paper bag. This needs to be everywhere no exceptions. Millions of barrels of crude oil and pollution are attributed to making the bags. Plastic bags make it to the environment even in the most developed countries and kills untold amounts of animals, sea life, and birds there. And digging gigantic holes in the ground and filling them with plastic bags is stupidity and where most bags end up. Reducing is not the future, banning is right.

 

And think about this. Children are dying every year like flies suffocating in plastic bags. Yet there is not one single person raising their hand that we should ban plastic bags. Then just one kid dies from muay thai and there is a hissy fit that this is intolerable and must be banned. People are so stupid.

 

[HHTel]

1 hour ago, Cryingdick said:

As other posters have pointed out plastic bags are actually very useful for household rubbish disposal.  

Quote

Many people justify their continued use of plastic bags by arguing each one is reused in the kitchen bin. But that’s not actually recycling – it’s barely even reusing, as each bag is still destined for landfill. Others buy bin liners, spending good money on a product made to be ditched after just one use.

 

[mogandave]

 
Last I looked the American west isn't full of trash cans either. One problem is that Thais indiscriminately throw garbage of all types out of their car windows. In Tokyo after the sarin gas attacks most public garbage cans were removed. The reasoning was they didn't want places people could hide things. Yet Tokyo doesn't have the garbage problems that say Bangkok has.
 
I was in Laos at a market with a Lao friend one time. There was garbage everywhere like a typical market, rats etc. I threw a can on the ground near a big pile of garbage. My friend jokingly reprimanded me about it. I told him take a look around the entire place was like a big garbage dump. 
 
He happened to also be my driver on this particular trip. Later on he stopped on the road and threw all of the garbage and bags and beer cans directly into a stream. Evidently in his logic this was the natural choice.
 
 

Well last time I looked (this past October) there seemed to still be plenty of trash receptacles.

I’m not saying an attitude adjustment is not needed, but if you don’t want people throwing trash on the ground they have to have some place to throw it.

[Cryingdick]

1 minute ago, mogandave said:

 

Well last time I looked (this past October) there seemed to still be plenty of trash receptacles.

I’m not saying an attitude adjustment is not needed, but if you don’t want people throwing trash on the ground they have to have some place to throw it.

 

 

Another problem is that say for example they made a campaign and got every Thai to go and pick up every piece of trash. They do not have the capability to do anything with it. 

 

If a small charge on a bag would lead to better incinerators or whatever is best i wouldn't oppose it. However we all know what would happen to that money.

 

I could actually imagine a huge rubbish collection. At the end it all goes in a big conveyer belt straight into the rivers or ocean.

[mogandave]

 

Another problem is that say for example they made a campaign and got every Thai to go and pick up every piece of trash. They do not have the capability to do anything with it. 

 

If a small charge on a bag would lead to better incinerators or whatever is best i wouldn't oppose it. However we all know what would happen to that money.

 

I could actually imagine a huge rubbish collection. At the end it all goes in a big conveyer belt straight into the rivers or ocean.

 

Actually there are a large number of well operated transfer stations and land fills.

 

Also, I would bet the percentage of waste that is recycled is very high.

 

Personally, when I look around I think things are improving.

[mogandave]

 
People are so stupid.
 

Yes, no doubt everyone but you is stupid.

As far as banning all plastic bags, what about plastic colostomy bags?

Why not ban all plastics?

Why not ban take-out food?

Why not ban cooking food?

Everyone knows there’s no end to it. People with no meaning in their lives on a plastic bag crusade will just move on to another silly crusade once they rescue the world from plastic bags.

[canopy]

4 minutes ago, mogandave said:

Yes, no doubt everyone but you is stupid.

Wrong. I have simply noted places implementing an approach that works others that don't. Interesting to see that gives you such a high opinion of me.

 

[mogandave]

Wrong. I have simply noted places implementing an approach that works others that don't. Interesting to see that gives you such a high opinion of me.
 

What works?

I grew up in California and there is certainly not less trash laying around now than 20 years ago.

[owl sees all]

2 hours ago, canopy said:

Wrong. I have simply noted places implementing an approach that works others that don't. Interesting to see that gives you such a high opinion of me.

 

Why not educate Thai people not to just chuck them away in the street?

 

We are only chatting with each other's avatars. Your one happens to be a dog's head mine an owl's face and mogandave's is that 'Clockwork Orange' geezer. Touchiness will not help unblock Thailand's canals and rivers.

 

Need section 44 for that!

Edited November 19, 2018 by owl sees all

[canopy]

19 minutes ago, owl sees all said:

Why not educate Thai people not to just chuck them away in the street?

Education is not the answer. Try your hand at educating a few Thai's to stop tossing plastic bags in the waterway and streets or better yet not putting plastic in yard fires the latter of which the lasting effects can easily be observed. Many do gooders with high hopes of saving the world have already tried their hand at educating Thai's in many areas. The people here are simply not interested. It's like telling a smoker to stop smoking by "educating" him that it is in his best interests and expecting him to quit. He will blow smoke in your face. So to use your words "why not" use a proven concept of banning plastic bags?

 

[mogandave]

Education is not the answer. Try your hand at educating a few Thai's to stop tossing plastic bags in the waterway and streets or better yet not putting plastic in yard fires the latter of which the lasting effects can easily be observed. Many do gooders with high hopes of saving the world have already tried their hand at educating Thai's in many areas. The people here are simply not interested. It's like telling a smoker to stop smoking by "educating" him that it is in his best interests and expecting him to quit. He will blow smoke in your face. So to use your words "why not" use a proven concept of banning plastic bags?
 

We stopped it at our plant.

[chingmai331]

Here's a good read discussing both sides of the good/bad plastic container issue

 

https://qz.com/1189422/in-defense-of-plastic-the-worlds-most-wasteful-hazardous-downright-useful-material/

 

Personally i believe that if ultimate consumers had to pay, even 1 baht, for such toss-away bags, there would be fewer of them floating around. 

 

I found china (10 yrs ago) and the Phil Islands (5 yrs ago) the worst for local bag litter: roadsides, alleyways and waterways densely crowded with crappy toss-away bags.  Ugly, very ugly and ultimately damaging to the environment and all who live there.